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AppGameKit Classic Chat / AGK2 vs Unity2D

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TransDiv
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Posted: 14th Apr 2015 19:15 Edited at: 15th Apr 2015 00:03
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Hi 2 All

I would like to know some opinions about how do you compare AGK2 2D capabilities against Unity 2D (Not 3D). It's not a buying desicion; I already own AGK2 and learning it, but a friend with which we are planning to make a little 2D game insist in using Unity. One of the main reasons is the popularity of it and the lot of examples and documentation we can find in the Web. Besides the huge different price (we would use the Unity free edition), Is there any advice of anyone who has made that desicion?

Regard
TransDiv

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Posted: 14th Apr 2015 23:03
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My belief is that game engines don't make games, developer's do. Take a look at any of the app stores and game sites and there's plenty of rubbish made in all the different game engines. So from that point of view, it's probably more important to use tools that people are comfortable with. Using something that is popular is a valid reason if it gives peace of mind.

But, because you're asking this question I guess no one in the group has actually made anything in unity2D, not even just getting a square moving around the screen. There's the risk that the team gets bogged down by going up a learning curve and actually it turns out that they're useless at it. The same is true of AppGameKit but the fact that you've bought it probably means that you at least had a go. Personally I've found the help files, examples and just keeping a eye on the forums enough to get by on.

Get your friend to download unity2D and see what they can make of it. Get them to make a simple demo using place holder graphics, maybe in the style of the game you want to make, and see how they get on. It doesn't have to be anything elaborate but just enough to satisfy everyone that it's the way to go. If they're not the one who's doing the "game engine" bit then, as far as I'm concerned, they shouldn't have the deciding vote.

I don't know the relative merits of AppGameKit and unity2D on a technical level but my gut feeling is that it probably doesn't matter. Games like Rush To Adventure, Echoes+ and Approaching Infinity prove that AppGameKit is more than capable of delivering quality games, in terms of looks and game play.

For the record I use AppGameKit because it's versatile, I like BASIC, I like the AppGameKit V2 editor - which is actually improving my coding style - and I can make the kinds of games I'm interested in.

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baxslash
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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 08:13 Edited at: 15th Apr 2015 08:16
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Agk is a lot easier to learn if you are new to programming too. C# is by its nature more complicated to learn than 'Basic'. I am a C# developer and also own Unity but I choose to use Agk in my spare time and as a toolkit at work. I have used Agk to build many apps and tools but get bored quickly with Unity.

It's all down to personal preference but I would get your team to at least try Agk before going with Unity.

If this were high school then Unity would be the popular kid with all the friends and money. Agk is the nerdy kid. I know who I want making my games

Unity has enough friends scrabbling for his attention.

Using AppGameKit V2 Tier 1
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BatVink
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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 13:04
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Quote: "I have used Agk to build many apps and tools but get bored quickly with Unity"


I'd agree with this. I dabbled for a while, when I needed strong database functionality. But I got fed up looking for the right place to do things, mentally connecting the different components so I could find them again, and spending too long testing small sections of code to work out what the hell was going on.

If I had 6 months to dedicate to Unity I'm sure it would be a different story. But I struggle to find just 6 hours.

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Matty H
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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 13:06
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Use AppGameKit if:

1. You prefer basic
2. You have more experience with it
3. You love the broadcasting feature
4. You want your own splash screen

These are good reasons to use AppGameKit, there are probably more. If they don't apply then Unity may be the better choice.

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 14:01
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AGK is still a good option if you use C++ or Pascal instead of BASIC.

Unity is not free. The free version is restrictive. Unrestricted cross-platform delivery costs $4,500. That's magnitudes more expensive than AGK.

Alright, AppGameKit does not have the development power of big organisation behind it and it has limitations. But what it does it does very well, and continues to improve. albeit slowly.

For a hobbyist who will never produce AAA games it's powerful enough. And royalty-free. For those wanting to produce high-performance and more complex games the C++ option opens up vast possibilities.

<<It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.>> Dijkstra
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apocolyp4
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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 16:59
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I used AppGameKit and now AppGameKit 2 professionally on a daily basis, and have used Unity (3D) professionally on freelance projects. If your friend only knows Unity you'll most likely end up using it. From experience I noticed that most people who are been raised in using only Unity are almost unable to adapt to a more traditional software development approach like AppGameKit BASIC, C++, Java ect. Especially if they exclusivity use Javascript. Im not putting them down as I know people like that who can make amazing games by themselves using Unity and Javascript.

Anyhow back to the AGK2 vs Unity2D question. AGK2 currently beats it hands down in coding 2D games, while Unity2d wipes the floor in building and managing levels and art assets.

Your at the mercy of Unitys physics system. In Unity2D you cant call a function to detect if one object has collided with another, you can only write a script that is triggered when a collision has taken place (its a bit more complicated than that). Then if have to cycle through all the collisions until you get to the one you wanted. This makes writing your own 2D physics code much more difficult. You can use the inbuilt 2D physics (a bit like AppGameKit 2D physics). However they haven't created a 2D character controller yet (last time I checked was Jan 2015) which means you need to use either a Box collided which will get stuck if yo make a tile based level, or a round based collided will makes walking off edges look silly. They might have fixed this in Unity 5 (hopefully).

Creating levels in Unity has always been easier than in AppGameKit if you haven't built an editor, or use a 3rd party one. There is one drawback with Unity in creating levels. They are saved in a scene file that only Unity can read, and you can only read from a text file out side of windows builds (this might be wrong now been a while since I checked). Thats fine of you just always plan on using Unity, but it makes future proofing much more difficult. A few years ago I made a game in Dark Basic called Neon Prime which used a level editor that I wrote that saved levels in a text file. I then ported the game to the Xbox 360 (using XNA), Android (using Python), and then IOS, Blackberry, and Android again (using AGK). I was able to reuse the same level files without having to edit them which you cant do while using Unity.
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apocolyp4
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Posted: 15th Apr 2015 17:19 Edited at: 15th Apr 2015 17:21
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Here is a good example of what I was able to do at 2 separate game jams (make a game in 48 hours) using both AppGameKit and Unity2D.

A few years ago I built a game using AppGameKit called Acorn Warriors. It was with a 2 person team with me as the coder and a game designer. In the 48 hours that it took to build I was able to code the games physics, controller code for 4 players, AI, game play, tile level loader, menu system, collision detection, blood physics, scoring system, and code to handle the sprite animations.



As you can see the game is very playable and is a lot of fun with 4 players. Its not perfect and has lots of bugs, but it worked great for a game coded from scratch in 48 hours.

Earlier this year I took part in the 2015 Global Game Jam. The same game designer had a job interview for Unity developer that would take place during the game jam, and he asked if we could make a similar game using Unity2D. I agreed and this time we had 2 Artists (who did a great job), and 3 programmers (though I ended up doing most of the coding). At the end of the 48 hours we barley got a working prototype working (see video below). With more people be just managed to get half the same game play features that I managed to do using AGK. Even the things I did manage to code in are all buggy too hell.



Ive since then started to port the Unity game over to AGK2 as the game play is solid and I dont want the artwork to go to waste.
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TransDiv
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Posted: 17th Apr 2015 16:38
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Thx for the answers, very informative; Probably like you said, the smartest way to take the desicion would be to create a similar simple game both in AGK2 and Unity2D using the same media.

TransDiv
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AppStar
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Posted: 19th Apr 2015 15:38
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I'm a Unity3D Developer since 3 Years. I created some cool 3D Games but what unity makes so bad is you must pay for everything like Facebook, Inapp etc... At the moment i play a little bit with AGK2 for 2D and Unreal Engine 4 for 3D. And i must say it's a perfect combination. I like the easy commands of AppGameKit and the Tier2 for c++. Another reason why AppGameKit is you can code in Industrial Standart like c++. So it's better to change between Unreal and AppGameKit for example both you can code in c++. Unity with c# and js is native not so fast than c++ and this agk. Another reason for AppGameKit is you don't have any problems with Drawcalls or Facebook integration inapp or social sharing...

in Unity a code for facebook is:



in AppGameKit is it:


(Example by Paul Johnston)

So man tell me what is easier

That was the reason for me to pay the 99$ and be a member of this nice AppGameKit Family.

Get every day over 400 deals in our DealWheel for free in Google Playstore and Apple Appstore.
Appstore: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/deal-wheel/id983605160
Playstore: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.synasystem.dealwheel
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bjadams
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2015 00:49
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Unity went FREE even on mobile in 2013!
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bjadams
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2015 12:14
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@TransDiv

If you want to do games for yourself, then AppGameKit is a great option.

If you want to work in game dev then having experience using UNITY on your CV is a better option. Basically everyone is working with Unity these days. Every advert you see asks for Unity programmers. It has become near to impossible to get into a new project (unless it is your own) using AppGameKit
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baxslash
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2015 12:39 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2015 12:47
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Quote: "Unity went FREE even on mobile in 2013! "

Check the small print. If you ever have a successful game (that earns over $100,000) you pay $75 per month (min 12 months) or $1500, THEN you have to pay the same again for each mobile platform!

That's not free, that's investment on return.

Unity Example:
You create a game in Unity for free (yay)
Your iOS and Android games have Unity splash screens (boo)
Your game is a massive hit (yay)
You make just over $100,000 (yay)
You have to pay Unity $4500 (boo)

AGK Example:
You make a game using AppGameKit costing currently $66 (not bad)
Your game is a massive hit (yay)
You keep all the profit FOREVER! (yay)

I know that doesn't cover everything but basically that's what you're looking at.

Using AppGameKit V2 Tier 1
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2015 13:11
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I seem to remember the fees also apply if your company or you have above a certain turnover.

<<It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.>> Dijkstra
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SpecTre
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2015 15:00
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Yes Unity is without doubt not free in the long run and when I tried it before getting AppGameKit I found it to not be as easy or natural flowing to use to be honest.
It seemed to take much longer to get something working that you wanted to achieve.
You will also find that the finished app size is a hell of a lot larger in Mb too for the same resulting app in Unity and would be a lot easier to get to the limit size for Android store.

The Amiga and Amos were great!
Download my game - Paint Pot from Amazon and Google here - http://leap.my-free.website/
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bjadams
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2015 15:01
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To earn $100,000 from 1 game, you have to spend quite a few thousand $ in advertising!

Even registered companies with 4-6 employees don't make a PROFIT of $100,000 on 1 game, so indy people like us who work out of their own house should be fine.
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bjadams
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2015 15:04
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@spectrepaul

I have to agree with you, starting from 0, it will take a lot of invested hours/days/weeks to get up and running and learn the basics of Unity.
For people who have a past using TGC products, starting with AppGameKit is much simpler. That's my own story... however I can't seem to get anything running as every game team I get in touch with wants to develop exclusively in Unity.
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bjadams
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@baxslash

I agree with you on 1 thing... $66 for AGK2 is nothing, it's a great price point
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SpecTre
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2015 15:18
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Quote: "however I can't seem to get anything running as every game team I get in touch with wants to develop exclusively in Unity"


I think if thats the case and you want to work as part of a team then you should learn Unity whilst also working with AppGameKit in the mean time releasing your own apps too.

You can use AppGameKit to draft a game and get it up and running then convert it to Unity and see if you can get the same results or better to showcase to a team.

Your AppGameKit title could then be on the app stores building up your rep whilst you learn.

I know what you mean though, everyone seems to go on about Unity and it wouldn't do you any harm to learn it also.

The Amiga and Amos were great!
Download my game - Paint Pot from Amazon and Google here - http://leap.my-free.website/
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BatVink
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2015 20:33 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2015 20:34
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Quote: "Even registered companies with 4-6 employees don't make a PROFIT of $100,000 on 1 game,"


It's revenue, not profit. Still a large number, but this is very significant.

Let's say you decide to go full time on a Unity project, leaving your comfortable full-time job.

You need to earn at least $50,000 (£33,000) to cover your employment. That's about $56,000 after employers liabilities.
You can't do everything as a sole developer. You'll be buying assets and purchasing pre-developed modules, maybe hiring a DB expert for a specific function etc. Let's call this a round $10,000 - less than $1,000 (£660) a month over a year. Publishing to multiple platforms is also going to cost you more.

You'll need to spend at least 20% of what you plan to turn over in marketing, in order to be successful, and this is a conservative estimate. So that's another $20,000.

We haven't covered everything yet, and we are already at an outlay of $86,000. If you hit $100,000 revenue then that's $4,500 to Unity.

Now you have less than $10,000 to cover the remaining costs of running your business and unforeseen circumstances. This scenario is working from home, no consideration for office space and other amenities. It doesn't include keeping yourself trained and attending the essential conferences and exhibitions. You're also relying on your own abilities to self-publish.

Don't be fooled by the $100,000 threshold, thinking it's unattainable. If you are doing this full time, it is inevitable you will reach the threshold simply to stay afloat. If you aren't doing it full time, you are still putting in '000s of dollars of your own time to make it happen.

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bjadams
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2015 11:31
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I would love to know if there is anyone in here who is making $100,000 Revenue on 1 game, from sales on fulltime basis, without any 3rd party investment.

I think the most successful here has been Gekko, but he has 100 apps around.

Most people in here are hobbyists, who make games for their own enjoyment, and maybe make some little $ on a part time basis. Some even see the one time cost of AppGameKit as a lot of money... that says a lot.
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xGEKKOx
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2015 12:05 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2015 12:06
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Well, I studied Unity last year, while i got spare time.
I think it is too big and too un-programmable, i mean, scripting is not programming, and using a visual designer is not the best solution for a 2D game.
I can do the same thing in 1/3 of the time writing code manually.

Anyway, hmmm i surpassed the 100k but with sum of apps not with only one.
I hope it can happen with the "Wozz Up Messenger" app i will release soon.

Don t waste your time on Unity, go for AppGameKit!!

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Polaraul
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I have experience of both Unity and now AGK. I would say that you pick the toolset that best fits your needs.

A top down game with real time 3D graphics is not the provence of AppGameKit (yes, it could be done in AppGameKit, but as a developer I need the quickest route to market), however, Unity is perhaps not the engine if all you're after is a relatively simplistic 2d game.

If you are coming in fresh to both languages, and you envisage nothing more than simple 2D game development, than I would opt for AGK. For anything else, Unity

http://www.polaraul.com
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