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AppGameKit Classic Chat / License Question (Icons, Process Memory, Cmdline)

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Snowbird
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Posted: 26th Apr 2015 12:33 Edited at: 26th Apr 2015 16:06
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Hi,
I am new to this and am using AGK2 for about 2-3 weeks, don't remember.
Someone over at the steam forum asked how to get custom icons for the windows player AGK2 executable.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/325180/discussions/0/616199347853067325/

If I got this right one of the developers of AppGameKit suggested that the only and proper way to do it was to change the executable icon via some kind of resource editor "Resource Hacker".

Since this changes the player exe, I wanna know, if this is really covered by the license. At the moment, the player icons are nothing of my concern though as I have changed them already (WIP) without even the need to touch the executable, which is not only easier (bar the initial work), but also prefered by me, for it seems cleaner. It also prevents changing the checksum of the player thus AV which already flagged the player in the past won't get retriggered. (Dunno, just read about the AV issue)

So my question is, what exactly am I allowed to do with the executable, as I have quite some other problems I need to solve, which can not be solved in such a clean way.

First I'd like to use the multi media capabilities to develop command line tools for windows to auto generate 'subImages.txt', without resorting to tier 2, because that template also throws you deep into windowed stuff and I also couldn't use my 3-5k basecode I already have produced, in AppGameKit Basic. So I actually prefer doing it in
Tier 1.

I have added commandline arguments to Tier 1 programs and output to the console, without the need to touch the executable as it is. But now I am at a point, where I wonder if it was okay to access the "Process Memory" at runtime from the outside, to allow communication between different programs (AGK and native), which of course could be done via TCP/IP, but would be slower and more complicated. Thus my question, where does that put me license wise.

I know this product is all about portability, but I wanna use/add these features, to produce tools which seemlesly work together with the framework.

Cheers,
Snowbird
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Markus
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Posted: 26th Apr 2015 23:28
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about icon, why not make a link (to exe) and select there a icon for?

i think cmd line tools are ok if it reside at your game folder.

AGK 108 (B)19 + AppGameKit V2 Beta .. : Windows 8.1 Pro 64 Bit : AMD Radeon R7 265 : Mac mini OS X 10.10 (Yosemite)
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CJB
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 11:59
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I don't know if this helps, but the EULA expressly excludes the creation of:

(a) any software tool or software product which can (or might) be used in order to create further games or other software products;

(b) any software library, compilation or collection of graphics and / or sounds from which a particular graphic or sound may be extracted to be used independently of the software in which it was first incorporated;

You can find the complete EULA here.

V2 T1 (Mostly)
Uzmadesign
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baxslash
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 12:37
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Quote: "(a) any software tool or software product which can (or might) be used in order to create further games or other software products;"

Wow, does that mean I have to stop sharing the tools I make for AppGameKit?!

...and this...
Quote: "(b) any software library, compilation or collection of graphics and / or sounds from which a particular graphic or sound may be extracted to be used independently of the software in which it was first incorporated;"

...sounds like anything created with AppGameKit Tier 1 as people can easily go into your media folder and take anything out they want. That's not to say they are legally allowed to, but it's possible...

Using AppGameKit V2 Tier 1
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Snowbird
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 12:47
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Thanks CJB, I have read the EULA link

Quote: "(a) any software tool or software product which can (or might) be used in order to create further games or other software products;"


indeed sounds as if all tools produced in AppGameKit to help you or others to produce sprites, subimage.txt, graphics, sounds or anything like that to use independently or incoorporate in your games are actually forbbidn by this paragraph, yet I have seen great tools in this forum made with even the same, e.g. level editors, spriters, animation tools etc., shape tools.

So yes your information was kinda helpful. I wish the EULA was somewhat more clear.

Looking up badges I even found this
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=badges#AGK%20Developer

The AppGameKit Tools Maker badge, which seems like another contradiction.

Snowbird
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Snowbird
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 12:49
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Quote: "about icon, why not make a link (to exe) and select there a icon for?"


That just doesn't look nice

Quote: "i think cmd line tools are ok if it reside at your game folder."


What would be the difference of where they are stored?
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BatVink
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 12:49
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Quote: "Quote: "(a) any software tool or software product which can (or might) be used in order to create further games or other software products;"
Wow, does that mean I have to stop sharing the tools I make for AppGameKit?!"


No, I don't think so at all. You are making tools that allow resources and techniques to be implemented. You must own AppGameKit in order to take advantage of your tools.

I'm sure TGC will welcome your additions to the toolbox. Anything that makes game-making with AppGameKit easier has to be seen as a good thing.

Way back when I created smartParticles, it was featured in the newsletter. I featured TileMapping apps and all sorts of utilities for FPSC too.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
TutCity is being rebuilt
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Snowbird
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 13:01
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Quote: "Wow, does that mean I have to stop sharing the tools I make for AppGameKit?!"

This, this, this is exactly what I had in mind when I wrote the post before yours. Your tools are awesome.
You might have never heard of me, as I am new to this forum. But you have been one of my inspirations to make my own tools and of course use the tools of others. You are literally all over this place and it is as far I can judge a good thing.

I've been using your tools, actually not yet, but I tested some of them and plan on using them somewhen when I finished base/tool coding.

It would be a real shame and a loss for the community if things like your tools and those of others of course would be endangered by this EULA. The good thing is, I guess, that I have not seen one adverse reaction to someone posting tools.

The bad news is, that as long as there is no definite clarity, people could pull the plug anytime.

Thank you baxslash for not only making them, but also providing them to the community.

Quote: "..sounds like anything created with AppGameKit Tier 1 as people can easily go into your media folder and take anything out they want. That's not to say they are legally allowed to, but it's possible..."


Exactly, also it reads as if just near misses graphic/sound asset libraries regardless of their copyright holders terms. Just the word software seems to save us here, while 'software' is often used in the very same licenese agreements for graphic/sound/text/music assests as kinda placeholder, as most of the standard licenes were originally made for software and read weird if the product is not really a software in the end.

Also
Quote: "(d) create, in strict accordance with the associated documentation, unlimited Apps (as defined below), and copy and issue copies of these Apps to the public in object code format only, and subject always to the provisions of section 4 below."


Does this mean, that code snippets or the decision to make a whole game available with source code is not allowed either? Dunno what "object code" means though. But I assume it's the bytecode.byc?
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Matty H
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 13:03
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I agree with BatVinks interpretation.

@baxslash - If the editor you are developing no longer required AppGameKit to make a game then I think you would be crossing the line. This would mean you could make the full application from your tool, it would perhaps include scripting features and in essence be a completely new game development tool, but powered by AppGameKit under the hood.

If your editor ever gets to that stage then I think you would just strike a deal with TGC, so all is not lost

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Snowbird
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 13:03
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Quote: "No, I don't think so at all. You are making tools that allow resources and techniques to be implemented. You must own AppGameKit in order to take advantage of your tools."


Not necessarily, what if I export to a format that my app but also other programs like 'tiled' or something like that '.bmp' can read.

Say, .ini, .xml slt?
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Markus
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 13:25
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Quote: "That just doesn't look nice.
What would be the difference of where they are stored? "


Every Game using Links to the EXE.
For the Link u can use any Icon, means
your Install Tool can handle this.

i mean if your agk tool is using by your game its same
u make a game that contains the tool in one exe file.

its understandable that tgc do not want that someone
wrap all function that agk provides in a exe file
using as library and hand over as a product/tool.

AGK 108 (B)19 + AppGameKit V2 Beta .. : Windows 8.1 Pro 64 Bit : AMD Radeon R7 265 : Mac mini OS X 10.10 (Yosemite)
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BatVink
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 14:01
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Quote: "Not necessarily, what if I export to a format that my app but also other programs like 'tiled' or something like that '.bmp' can read.

Say, .ini, .xml slt?"


You are still not creating a standalone application, so this should be OK. Just like the tools that export a fontmap and the text files that allow you to use it in AppGameKit apps.

The problem would lie in selling a tool that makes an executable package. Then you wouldn't need to buy AppGameKit to make a game that is using the AppGameKit engine.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
TutCity is being rebuilt
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Snowbird
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 14:03
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Quote: "its understandable that tgc do not want that someone
wrap all function that agk provides in a exe file
using as library and hand over as a product/tool."


I get the impression, that you might have missed the point? That is neither what's happening nor what is intended. I am not even sure, this would be possible, as you would certainly need to compile bytecode for that.

Quote: "Every Game using Links to the EXE.
For the Link u can use any Icon, means
your Install Tool can handle this."


Of course, but it still looks unprofessional, but it is also not the point.

If an official developer of the product suggests you to change the executable, how can I make sure this is safe with the licences and not someone meaning good, while not being covered.

This begged the question if that guy over at the steam forum is authorized to speak officially such things on the behalf of the dev team/company and would this be on good authority.

Hope this clarifies.
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Snowbird
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 14:05
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Quote: "The problem would lie in selling a tool that makes an executable package."


So a gamemaker basically

I see
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baxslash
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Posted: 27th Apr 2015 14:20
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I'm pretty sure BatVink is right here... I'm not stopping making tools (glad to have inspired you Snowbird and welcome to the forum). I'm still working on my level editor in my spare time.

What I'm wondering is how far this stretches I guess because I would like my level editor to insert scripts into an AppGameKit project and compile full games using the AppGameKit compiler. I guess as long as the user has to have AppGameKit on their machine and my app just gets the user to select the folder in which it resides (or uses an AppGameKit registry entry if one exists) so it knows where AppGameKit is then that would be fine. They would still have to own AppGameKit as a separate product for mine to work.

I want to make something for 2D games that can work as a simple level editor or as a full drag and drop game maker / project builder for AGK.

Using AppGameKit V2 Tier 1
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RickV
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Posted: 7th May 2015 16:42
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To be clearer, you cannot use AppGameKit to make another game maker.

Game tools are fine.

Rick

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xCept
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Posted: 11th May 2015 08:05
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The ability to change the icon for Tier 1 desktop apps has been a requested feature since 2011. Adding this feature is certainly long overdue.

Lee's original proposed solution was:

Quote: "Perhaps a new setup.agc field:

icon=yourfile.png

The compiler would then do what it needs to do to ensure that image replaces the default icon for apps that use an icon (Windows)."


I would suggest that AppGameKit simply search the app's root folder for 'icon.png' or 'icon.ico' and, if found, swap the default icon to that upon building the EXE. It doesn't seem too difficult of a task and would eliminate the need to get into messy resource and hex editors.
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Greenwich
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Posted: 11th May 2015 08:57 Edited at: 11th May 2015 09:03
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Quote: "To be clearer, you cannot use AppGameKit to make another game maker."


For me, this opened up more questions than it answered. Where does the line get drawn on this?

For example:

Can I allow people playing my game to create custom maps / scenes within the game? Does it matter whether they're using media I included in the game, or importing their own tiles?

Can I allow people playing my game to create custom speech scripts and dialogue logic within the game?

Can I allow people playing my game to share the results of their customization with other users, by use of Steam or other supported multiplayer hubs?

Can I allow people playing my game to share the results of their customization with other users, by exporting the relevant media and dialogue and transmitting it to a centralized server?

...I can understand wanting to prevent someone from basically giving out AppGameKit, obviously, but there's very blurry distinctions between "Use this rpgApp to make and share your very own RPG game with other rpgApp users" and "Create a dungeon as a Dungeon Master and have your friends play your mission using mutliplayer" and "Build your own town in the world."

It's mean time. *averages*
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Greenwich
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Posted: 11th May 2015 09:02
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And yikes, I agree with others that

Quote: "any software library, compilation or collection of graphics and / or sounds from which a particular graphic or sound may be extracted to be used independently of the software in which it was first incorporated"


is literally not possible to avoid, unless we employ some kind of encryption on the media folder.

It's mean time. *averages*
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Impetus73
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Posted: 11th May 2015 09:27
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I guess it means you can not make a program, that can make independent api/ipa/exe files that people can play as independent games, or upload to an app store. Basically a wrapper to the AppGameKit commands, making your own editor and compiler within AGK.

----------------
AGK programmer
Did Amiga / AMOS programming in the 90's.
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Greenwich
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Posted: 11th May 2015 09:29 Edited at: 11th May 2015 09:35
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Hopefully, Impetus73 is correct -- I guess the 1.4(a) concern would be alleviated if we had official confirmation that "further games" refers only to the creation of new software that can run on its own. It would make complete sense to me that we're not allowed to make app-making apps.

The 1.4(b) concern is thornier. It would be nice to have official confirmation that it only prohibits us from creating an app that copies an original art/sound/etc file from the app's media folder to another location on the user's computer. (That would still prevent us from using a device's Clipboard, but I'm not even sure that's possible anyway.)

Usually, an EULA statement is lawyerese, but with a common-sense intent that's easy enough to understand. Admittedly, I don't really "get" what 1.4(b) is attempting to prohibit.

If I wanted to create an app that displays a thousand paintings I've done, and lets users set one of those images as their lock screen, that seems like a clear violation. Is that the sort of thing that 1.4(b) is intended to prohibit?

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

It's mean time. *averages*
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Greenwich
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Posted: 11th May 2015 09:34
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Actually, I also had a question about another EULA phrase:

Quote: ""...whose sole purpose is to entertain its user...""


Does this mean I can't use AppGameKit to create a pizza-ordering app or a locate-nearby-restaurant app? I mean, food can entertain its user

It's mean time. *averages*
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Paul Johnston
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Posted: 13th May 2015 05:46
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My understanding of it is that 1.4(a) says don't create a product with AppGameKit that would compete with AppGameKit itself, and 1.4(b) says that you can't just take the assets provided and bundle them into a graphics/sound pack for the purpose of distributing them. But I've never been a fan of EULAs. Unless you are somehow hurting the sales of AppGameKit I wouldn't worry about it.
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Greenwich
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Posted: 13th May 2015 06:24
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Thanks, Paul, that makes sense.

It's mean time. *averages*
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