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AppGameKit Classic Chat / AGK Pro Version NEEDED!!!

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bjadams
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Posted: 13th Oct 2015 08:47
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@Impetus73 They are busy making the AppGameKit 3D commands, so they don't have much time to answer questions on the Forum
Also check out what Lee Bamber says about what might happen with AppGameKit after the KS is done, on the last Newsletter
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Markus
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Posted: 13th Oct 2015 11:21 Edited at: 13th Oct 2015 11:29
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@bjadams
interesting about monkey.
but even i saw his last update for v85e is one day old.
the 3d part is missing for some years. i think he concentrate in 2d because unity,unreal ... are the leader in 3d engine.

@Impetus73
all threads are not for tgc or paul direkt, u can invite him to this topic.
i think he is busy he will find it later.
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Impetus73
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Posted: 13th Oct 2015 12:03
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That the developers, and sellers of a product, don't have time to read the forum of it's product, is not an acceptable excuse... They should take the time, I spend 5 - 30min / day reading the forum, and i read ALL new posts... At least read the threads where the folder is red, from allot of discussion.
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SpecTre
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Posted: 13th Oct 2015 12:56 Edited at: 13th Oct 2015 12:57
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I have been reading this thread with interest and can see where people are coming from and also the frustrations people get when they can't get something done with their apps because of a shortfall in the AppGameKit software. I have even been guilty of this myself, getting frustrated because things like the instructions etc are lacking and spending days trying to get something simple done like making a MAC version of an app and uploading it to the iOS store.

AGK users whether hobbyist or pro as in make a living from their software are a passionate bunch! Emotions can run high sometimes. I include me in this too

Gekko is doing his work full time 24/7 and when sees something new like the Apple TV wants to exploit that avenue to make the most from his apps straight away which is understandable. With passions running high and the language barrier etc it can get quite loud. I don't take offence from these things and I am sure TGC don't either.

However I think we all need to take a step back, count to 10, take a deep breath and then look at things again

Paul did say he is going to have a look at things.
TGC is a small indie team and not a massive company of the likes of Unity.
Things have not been completed with the 3D side of things yet.
Kickstarter goals are still being finished off which were there before iOS TV.

Now before a load of people start shouting etc at the above, I am just pointing things out and yes I know how long things have been taking to get things sorted etc and if you look at some of my other posts in threads etc about the vision of TGC needing looking at and other platforms needing support like Windows, Raspberry Pi, Wii U etc, you will know I have said this type of thing previously and we all know where we would like AppGameKit to be in whatever amount of years/months etc as we all have our own agenda and goals for our own products...........

.........but if we think about it, we all probably agree that Unity is THE software development tool.

Just take a look at this link and see the section regarding the Apple TV in the Unity roadmap development section:

http://unity3d.com/unity/roadmap

You might be surprised to see that it is in the section for *** IN-PROGRESS, TIMELINES LONG OR UNCERTAIN ***


Well I will leave it at that and it's just a few things to think about
I would like more people working on AppGameKit etc, however at the end of the day it is TGC's product which they sell and have copyright to, it is not finished and a work in progress and TGC probably don't want their code being released to people etc even though people offer there work/time for free.

All good thing come to those that wait...................
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MikeHart
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Posted: 13th Oct 2015 13:41
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@bjadams, I know what I wrote 20 months ago. And at that time, it looked like that. Your argument of abandoning languages/tools goes for a lot of companies. For an example TGC, Darbasic, Darkbasic Pro, Freedome Engine. As a user we might not like that, but that is how the business goes I guess. Next year YYG will release GMS 2 or GM NEXT. Then you can argue there too. How many times Unity will get a new version a year? Once or twice? With MX, you have at least all the sources up front and can fix it yourself, once the creator is not working on it. Something that doesn't apply to a closed source solution.The methology of MX doesn't cater to the crowed here anyway. For Mr. Super Gekko, I still recomment going native and with his own solution.
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bjadams
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Posted: 13th Oct 2015 13:41
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@SpectrePaul you are very right. The end result is that people are impatient these days, and if they see just 1 thing they cannot do with AppGameKit they get "angry" and leave AGK. So in the end it's TGC's loss
Look at Steam there are a few bad reviews for AppGameKit there, and got AppGameKit rated lowly
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CJB
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Posted: 13th Oct 2015 13:55
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Quote: "The lack of reply to this thread from TGC officials are astounding..."

They're probably too busy laughing! I think TGC would be bonkers giving the source-code to one of their core products to anyone, especially someone with little regard of I.P.

V2015 is ALPHA. The full release will include all the platform support it is supposed to include. If something isn't working properly on any particular platform, then a bug report should be made and TGC will squish it.

We have seen a huge step forward with v2015. Personally, I'd rather see support for Wii/u, PS3/4, Xbox, Nintendo ds/3ds etc. before the likes of Apple TV, but I don't keep on about it.





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SpecTre
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Posted: 13th Oct 2015 16:52
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Quote: " I'd rather see support for Wii/u, PS3/4, Xbox, Nintendo ds/3ds etc. before the likes of Apple TV,"


+1


Personally I think AppGameKit has some very exciting times to come once the Kickstarter goals have been reached and once they have, then other areas can be looked at.
In the mean time I am happy waiting and finishing my 2D projects

At the end of the day whether TGC read these forums regular or not, how many other forums can you list where the devs actually respond?
Try asking the dev of Unity for something and see how quickly they reply, if at all

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bjadams
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Posted: 13th Oct 2015 18:19
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@spectrepaul I ask for help & requirements to the dev of C2 and he answers all the time, even in private. He's a one man dev setup from UK, just like AGK

Anyway, good luck to you guys & AppGameKit, I hope that once the KS is fulfilled, AppGameKit keeps on prospering and is not abandoned for a year
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xGEKKOx
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Posted: 13th Oct 2015 19:18 Edited at: 13th Oct 2015 19:19
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hi spectre... you must understand that apple tv will be in 2016 the biggest challenger for xbox, playstation and wii in marketing.
the A8 cpu is really powerful, and metal is a powerful engine too.
this is because apple os is optimized to the max for his device.

believe in me, releasing also for apple tv will mean earn the double, as the stores are divided.
i talk in this way because i have the developer kit, and i tested the power and the possibility.
i have 50 app ready to publish on it, just after agk would be updated.

doing this, for me is 50% more earning, and if agk don't come out, do you think i stop coding?
obviously i will find another engine immediately, as this is only business.

agk can't be out from this market, and if my help will be accepted, all customers will have an always updated lib.
and agk will have much more success on apple devices.
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bjadams
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Posted: 13th Oct 2015 19:49
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I agree that appleTV has great potential but it has 1 big problem, it does not come with a proper controller
The only advantage I see is that it's easier and more cost effective to publish on it than on Xbox and Playstation where there is very strict quality control of what games make it to the stores.
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SpecTre
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Posted: 13th Oct 2015 22:14
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Gekko and bjadams, I should imagine Apple TV will do very well as anything Apple touch is like gold.
I have just managed to get stuff on the MAC store so the next natural one to do would be the Apple TV, especially if the Apple fees are going to include this too as it makes it much better value and more obtainable to the hobbyist too then.
That controller support is going to be a big one though as there seems a lot of people are not sure about it.

I see what you are saying with high costs etc for other devices but I think the next natural one then would be Windows, especially if the developer costs are a one off fee of $20 and that lets you develop for Windows, App store and Xbox App store too. This would save having to mess with Steam if this is correct and would also benefit TGC with their apps like the driving test app which could also be on there too.

I can't see any being more hard work than Apple to get accepted though as they really want you to jump through hoops as I have recently found out, rejecting apps for very little things.
Also sometimes an app gets accepted and another doesn't which has the same options as the rejected one. I have examples if you don't believe

Anyway it will all be good in the end and I think when these kickstarter goals are sorted then big things will come and maybe even another kickstarter for the bigger Pro version???
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xGEKKOx
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Posted: 13th Oct 2015 23:05
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No a new kickstarter would be a big time lose.
on apple tv, many economic controllers will be out very soon.

if you think, 149$ + 50$ for a good controller is not that much, think also if i add a raw controller update for new agk, you are ok to go.
the important market is in the usa, but i think it will be great everywhere.

windows universal is important too, very important... the collaboration between apple and microsoft need to be followed strictly.
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Walkman1014
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Posted: 14th Oct 2015 04:43 Edited at: 14th Oct 2015 04:45
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If you are making something with AGK2 then you need to "keep it real". AGK2 has been a WONDERFUL thing for my 2d mobile games (simple and to the point). I can get the job done in about 1/2 the time it would take me to get it done with other tools like Unity, Unreal, or LibGDX. Often I see that complaints made against AGK2 are normally made by those that don't seem to understand that there are different tools for different jobs. It is my humble opinion that AGK2 is an excellent tool for simple 2D mobile games on Android and/or iOS. Please note that I did not say 3D first person shooters or XBox games... please note that I did not say server based massive multiplayer universe games or VR helmet games. I see that TGC are really putting as much as they can into 3D which is great and there are certainty other areas that they could grow into (such as Apple TV). But please, before bashing TGC or AGK2 take a moment to look at the scope of your game and make a decision based on the needs of your game when selecting your development tools. AppGameKit only cost me $66 USD which was a practical GIVE AWAY! I have gotten a lot of life out of AGK2 so far thanks to its simple and lean tier 1 command library. It has saved me a lot of time on my 2D MOBILE GAMES. If I require "the moon" however, that is when I invest in something like Unity (and a lot more in graphics and 3d modeling artists). I am not trying to ruffle feathers here... I am simply stating that all too often the folks who bash AppGameKit may be looking at the wrong tool for the job that are attempting to tackle. I mean ZERO offense to anyone on this forum.
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xGEKKOx
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Posted: 14th Oct 2015 05:38 Edited at: 14th Oct 2015 05:42
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Walkman, i completely agree with you.
This is the same thing i always repeated since the begin.
AGK is the BEST 2D engine, and i think that the 3D part must be a different thing.
This is why i always repeat that Unity3D is a bad engine (not because is bad) but because i want to code, not to drag and drop things with the mouse.

I understand also that the most of customers are on Tier 1 and they want a visual editor, but, 3D is another world.
Why AppGameKit can't focus on 2D than release the masterpiece of 2D and began another AGK3D???
Why 3D and 2D must be in the same LIB???

The problem is, how BJ said, we need divided libs. Who want to use 3D could add AGKLib3D.a, this is my idea.
Add to your project only what you need.

My request are not only for me, if one day you want to add facebook to your iOS project, you can't, cause in AppGameKit facebook doesn't work, like multiplayer, like iAD, like all the things Apple will update every 6 months.

Paul answered to my mail for the fixes and the test templates i sent to him.
An answer i didn't understand, maybe for language barrier, is that he has to test (tvOS) on an app that is more than 200Mb so he can't... But what if the customer app is less than 200Mb, mine are usually 20Mb, so let's update.
Hmmm, really i don't understand many things here...

Well, i have not a good willing, he said there's too much code to change and i continue to think that the only chance is to accept my help.

I contacted TGC Ceo (Lee Bamber), so i'll wait for some news.
The Apple AppGameKit coders now can only hope.

I will wait until AppleTV will come out in all the countries, after this period i will start a 2D engine for Apple devices and Windows 10 Universal (Islandwood Bridged) and maybe i will release it for free.

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bjadams
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Posted: 14th Oct 2015 07:10
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@Walkman1014 very wise words there. There is a tool for every occasion. If you are an AAA company you are not going to use AppGameKit, you will use Unity or Unreal. For casual 2D games on android/ios I use C2 as it cuts dev time to the minimum and it's updated & supported all year long
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BatVink
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Posted: 14th Oct 2015 09:02
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What Walkman1014 says.

I've been trying to say the same thing for years, but it's a hard message for people to hear.
Put it in contrast - my company have spent about £10,000 getting me kitted out with commercial-grade tools. £50 for AppGameKit is 200x lower in setup costs.
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bjadams
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Posted: 14th Oct 2015 10:33
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@BatVink you are very right you cannot compare Unity with AppGameKit 3D as everyone knows that Unity is done by a team of 100+ and TGC is a small indie company.
But Unity is Free and AppGameKit is £50, so a student who just wants to make a fun game will go for Unity

I don't use Unity myself even if it's for free, since I don't plan to do 3d games.
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Markus
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Posted: 14th Oct 2015 12:09
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about sale agk price.
maybe people would pay more if they know running cost , means more transparent .
income from new customers. ie. for 2014 / 2015
income from kickstarter.
effort cost developers and management / support.
so it exist a argument for a minimum price.

about 3d
Blitz3D is open source
BlitzMax is open source
maybe tgc can use something from it for agk?
Quote: "
How to obtain your free copy of BlitzMax:
create an account.
When requested to register a product, select BlitzMax and enter the following code:
FREEBLITZMAX
Click the Account > Product updates link - from this page you can download BlitzMax!
"

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bjadams
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Posted: 14th Oct 2015 12:16 Edited at: 14th Oct 2015 12:17
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Blitz is opensource because the project was abandoned in favor of MonkeyX. MonkeyX is not opensource.
DarkbasicPro is now opensource because TGC now have AGK. Maybe they might consider making AGK1 opensource?
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Markus
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Posted: 14th Oct 2015 12:48
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@bjadams
its also there
"Monkey is open source. Visit GitHub to fork Monkey and create your own version!"
where is the DarkbasicPro source? u have a link?
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bjadams
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Posted: 14th Oct 2015 12:56
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Monkey X's compiler and some modules are open source. Monkey X's main application & the game framework Mojo are commercial.

DarkBasicPro: https://forum.thegamecreators.com/thread/215409
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MikeHart
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Posted: 14th Oct 2015 14:15
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I hate talking about competeting products here but before someone gets the wrong information from some post here...
once you get Monkey Pro, you get all the sources. From the complete toolset!
So for a customer, it is open source. You are not allowed to republish the mojo source files for anything other than HTML5 and desktop platforms.
With the free version you get all the sources. Supported platforms in the free version are HTML5 and the desktop ones.
The pro version gives you many more target platforms. Monkey 2 will be complete free.

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bjadams
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Posted: 14th Oct 2015 15:54
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@MikeHart That's very nice. On their site I never saw the details that you also get the sources
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Markus
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Posted: 14th Oct 2015 17:03
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OT

@bjadams
ah ok thanks, DarkBasicPro is also at GITHUB
(i had some compatibility problems at newer os in past with normal exe that stops me from continue a project.)

@MikeHart
i mentioned open source blitz3d just because agk can maybe use something from it, and me forgot that they already have dbpro as good source.
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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 14th Oct 2015 21:34
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bjadams wrote: "I don't use Unity myself even if it's for free, since I don't plan to do 3d games."


Unity can be kind of nice but I find it can also be very cumbersome to set some really basic things up, such as text.

In AppGameKit, for example, all you have to do is this:

text = CreateText("")

Boom, you're done. But in Unity, you have to create a text object. Then you have to set it up so that it displays in a fixed position on the screen. Then you have to change all of the parameters to something you like, and you had better save it all as a prefab or you'll have to set it up for each subsequent level every time.

No, I am much like xGEKKOx, in that for as easy as they seem, engines like Unity/Unreal are very difficult to use. Honestly, I find using Blueprints in Unreal harder than programming in C++. So I would much rather just code everything myself.

Now that I am learning more about Monkey X here than on their actual site I'm very curious. I've been looking for other tools for my arsenal and that may just be the ticket!

Haha this is reminding of the old days where people would ask about Blitz3D vs DBP. I even made a thread about that a while back and got ripped into for it.


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bjadams
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Posted: 14th Oct 2015 21:55
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@Yodaman I don't think Unity is that easy after all. It has a steep learning curve... or maybe I am getting too old!

Also Unity seems to be overkill to do simple 2D games, with big MBs of overhead, and I don't like that
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xGEKKOx
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Well in the past i used Monkey X too but i abandoned it because of the event kind of programming.
Yeah, Yodaman, this is why i say that i'm very fast, because coding a CreateText is BOOM, done!

And when you do this just like thinkin is very fast.
When i think : "I must do a text in the center of the device"... i just write while i think it CreateText(Device_Width / 2, Device_Height / 2 - font_heigh / 2..... and so on

This is what i mean when i talk about speed of coding.
I'm at this point with OBJC.

Well this night i will release my new app, with AGK...
I hope the next too.
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JohnnyMeek
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Posted: 15th Oct 2015 12:17 Edited at: 15th Oct 2015 12:17
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Check out this one.

http://www.defold.com/

Got my access code a few days ago, but not had chance to really check it out yet. It's free, and it's owned by King.com.
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xGEKKOx
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Posted: 15th Oct 2015 12:52
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Well for non coders is good.
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bjadams
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Posted: 15th Oct 2015 12:57
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@JohnnyMeek Defold looks like a great toolset. It's like a Unity toolset for 2d! Scripting is all done with LUA. I think AppGameKit T1 has some series competition here
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bjadams
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Posted: 15th Oct 2015 13:28 Edited at: 15th Oct 2015 13:28
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@spectrepaul you chose Unity as an example.

As a C++ coder, I chose SDL as an example... they had a TVos version of SDL ready by end of September.

So if SDL can fix their library that quick, why not AppGameKit?

Personally I have no plans for TVos myself, but I would like to have AppGameKit fixed and working properly on iOS 9 if possible
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MikeHart
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@JohnnyMeek: nice one. Besides the visual editor, it reminds me of at least 2 other tools which use LUA as their language.

@xGEKKO@: Event stuff? You code natively, right? If I remember IOS and XCode coding correctly, isn't it all about events and placing your code into the right ones? Imho on mobile platforms only a middleware lanuage can hide that from the developer. AppGameKit Tier1 does that for you. But it isn't that much of a problem ones you know the methology.
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xGEKKOx
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Posted: 15th Oct 2015 14:36
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Yes Mike, but if an engine is LOOP based (not event based like Monkey X) on iOS will be different.
On iOS i mixed c++ and OBJC to don't use too much event, this is why i do the extra features directly in the template.
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SpecTre
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Posted: 15th Oct 2015 15:14 Edited at: 15th Oct 2015 15:20
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Quote: "So if SDL can fix their library that quick, why not AppGameKit?"


I see what you are saying but I think they have just too much on at the minute trying to finish the kickstarter goals as they have had so much pressure from here to get the 3D side of things finished. Personally I am not bothered about 3D stuff yet because I prefer 2D and love retro games.

I would much rather see more platforms supported than 3D if I am honest including the TVos but can wait. My preferences are Windows and Wii.
Windows for the app store and Xbox as I don't think it is expensive to develop on and Wii because it would be a great platform to develop on with the touch screen and the graphics are not as good as Xbox One and PS4 so would suite it better.

I have just sent off an email to Nintendo to register as a developer so will see what they send back re costs etc, just interested..... not saying I will pay for the dev kit lol


The way I look at it is, you could have lot's and lot's of high end features, 3D with all the bells and whistles on but what's the point if there are not many platforms you can release on compared to the competition. You might as well stick to 2D and get it super fast and feature rich with lot's of platforms, then look at 3D and the platforms will be there ready to support the extra features of 3D. As it is the 3D features are probably not good enough to support Xbox and PS etc???? but hey, I am not the dev so it is there baby and I will sit and get on with what I am doing and wait and maybe use this as the testing ground before going on to Unity or something like that for the final projects as AppGameKit is good for quickly drafting something out and testing a concept before completing it in Unity.
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bjadams
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Posted: 15th Oct 2015 16:23
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@spectrepaul you are right about the platforms, win10 + xbox would be an easy thing with the option to create a Universal RT but right now from what I read, the AppGameKit devs have no plans for win10
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Scraggle
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Posted: 16th Oct 2015 07:16 Edited at: 16th Oct 2015 07:17
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Quote: "if SDL can fix their library that quick, why not AppGameKit?"

Because AppGameKit is being developed by one man. SDL has hundreds of people working on it.
AGK V2 user - Tier 1 (mostly)
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bjadams
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Posted: 16th Oct 2015 07:59 Edited at: 16th Oct 2015 08:00
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@Scraggle I keep hearing the same story. Only one man, on a part time basis....

I paid for AppGameKit 1 and AppGameKit 2. SDL was free.

To me, as a customer, it sounds very unfair that something I got Free is updated, works on TVos, works well on ios9, will support WinRT universal apps as soon as MS releases the updated win10+xbox1 dev tool chain.... whilst a product I paid for still lags behind and is still in beta

I use another commercial dev tool, which is done by 1 guy in the UK, and is updated all the time... still 1 guy, but he works on it 24hrs a day!
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DavidAGK
AGK Developer
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Posted: 24th Oct 2015 12:05
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For me, the updates v1 to v2 to v3 (let's keep versions simple…no 'pro' versions) should be smaller to enable more income for TGC and for targets to be hit more consistently. For me, the V2 update without any 3D would have been enough. 3D could have been added in V3. Just my opinion...
Using Tier 1 AppGameKit V2
Started coding with AMOS (Thanks Francois Lionet)
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CJB
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Location: Essex, UK
Posted: 24th Oct 2015 21:42
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The 3D updates/Bullet physics were one of the stretch goals that was reached on the Kickstarter Campaign all those years ago. People paid their money to see it included, so it absolutely must be included in this version. Personally I couldn't be happier to see it included, even though it took WAY longer than anyone expected. We have a vast amount of flexibility with AGK2 now. Add a little shader magic and the sky is the limit!
V2 T1 (Mostly)
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KeithC
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Location: Michigan
Posted: 26th Oct 2015 15:20
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Just an FYI to all: There's a new build expected sometime this week. We know it's been longer than expected, but we're sure that you won't be disappointed! Here's a quick teaser video (created by Jammy), showing animating 3D and physics collisions from Bullet Physics.

-Keith
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bjadams
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Posted: 26th Oct 2015 19:59
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@KeithC make sure the new version works on IOS9 and won't be rejected by Apple because of the iAd problem ,as reported in another thread
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