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Geek Culture / Interesting question...

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Epimetheus
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Posted: 14th Dec 2003 05:32
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OK, I posted this here because ther are probably alot of smart people here.

This is a question that has plagued me my entire life! It haunts me in my sleep!Ok not really. Anyway ever since I got into 3d graphics I have know about this:
In theory if the cartasian coordinate system is true then a curve cannot exsist, think about it, if you zoomed in extremely close on any object or surface you would eventually get to a point where it was made up of only flat sufaces, the only way for this not to be true would be if everything in the universe was infinitly curving, but I doubt that is true. I you want proof, open up any 3d program that has preset spheres, make one, and zoom in until you see the bends in it.
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HZence
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Posted: 14th Dec 2003 06:06
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Actually now that I think about it, I believe you're correct, at least as far as computers go. Interesting idea.


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Dave J
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Posted: 14th Dec 2003 06:56
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Yeah, all our 3D objects are made up of vertices which are connect by straight lines so there is never anything truly curved. So what's your question?


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Damokles
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Posted: 14th Dec 2003 11:51
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Well, I doubt there is any program, that uses euclidean coordinates for creating models. Or it should be "vector"-coordinates, then it even works in a cartesian coordinate system

"Begin at the beginning, and go on till you come to the end: then stop." - Lewis Carroll
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Epimetheus
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Posted: 14th Dec 2003 19:16
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I meant that if it would be true in computers then it might be true in the real world.
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Chris K
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Posted: 14th Dec 2003 23:42
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I'm pretty sure that earth's orbit is a curve.
It seems a bit stupid that it would be made of tiny jolts in straight lines.

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qwe
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Posted: 15th Dec 2003 03:17
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if the smallest size that a unit of mass can be is infinitely small, which would be THE basic unit of everything, (which we cannot know because its too small, we'd never be able to study it, or anything near that small, we would study smaller and smaller particles and never reach it), then there could be an infinite curve in real life because it could be made of infinitely small particles.

u wouldnt see bends if there were enough vertice points so that theres more than one bend per pixel when you're zoomed all the way up to it

that would be a lot of vertices tho..
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 15th Dec 2003 11:28
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Well you could break the straight lines down into smaller parts...molecules! They are round aren't they? Also, there is no way that a straight line is actually perfectly straight. It would look like mountains when magnified. What you should really break down is the English language, or the language of man. Man has to use simple words to explain his environment, and he has to use a maths that is also broken down into simple terms. 1,2,3,4,5,6. These numbers are easy for us to use, but they are huge numbers when looking at the universe. They are like straight lines. The gap between each number could be thought of as a straight line. Life is analogue but we try to explain everything with digits. Does the orbit of a planet count in this situation? Does that have to be straight lines because things might be made from straight lines? The orbit of a planet isn't a structure, it is a movement. What about a spinning top? Can it possibly spin in straight lines? I think you should put movement to one side, and concentrate on structures, and structures are made from molecules. Molecules can group up in many different ways. Water surely has curves, and its a structure of sorts, but the curves are made from dots, and the dots are made from energy. I think that you have to decide what magnification you are basing your question on.

Pincho.
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Epimetheus
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Posted: 15th Dec 2003 18:11
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Think about it people:
Lets just say that particles infinitely get smaller and smaller(I believe that to) There still is no mathematical equation for infinity and, since something not based or solvable with math can exist, a curve, infinitely curving(meaning infinitely gaining sides or bends) cannot exist. Therefore everything in its simplest form is made of polygons. Probably the only thing that is infinite in this universe is it's expansion, way beyond our comprehension.

damn, my brain hurts after that.
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Easily Confused
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Posted: 15th Dec 2003 18:16 Edited at: 15th Dec 2003 18:16
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My feeble brain hurts just by reading it

Programming anything is an art, and you can't rush art.
Unless your name is Bob Ross, then you can do it in thirty minutes.
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David T
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Posted: 15th Dec 2003 18:24
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Quote: "Well you could break the straight lines down into smaller parts...molecules! They are round aren't they"


Well, there is no definitive 'edge' or 'skin' to a molecule, so you can only trace a rough outline.

And electrons are just balls of energy, no? (im not sure on that) SO you can't use the election shell as a boundary.

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Arrow
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Posted: 15th Dec 2003 20:00
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A curve is a curve, just like a line is a line. You can mathmaticly find the value of curves the same way you can find the value of a line (pi for example). Think of it like an angle, no matter where you measure the angle from it'll always be the same, same with a curve. Why try to limit reality to point A, point B?


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Epimetheus
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Posted: 16th Dec 2003 22:08
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Becase a curve would have to be infinitly gaining sides, that is just not possible in this universe.
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Scraggle
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Posted: 16th Dec 2003 23:06 Edited at: 17th Dec 2003 00:31
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Here's an interesting question:

Why would you name a thread 'Interesting question' and then not ask a question?

What you have done is make a statement.

GOD exists and his name is Jonny Wilkinson

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Chris K
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 13:49
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Why do you insist on breaking a curve down into straight lines?
Calculus states that curves are made up no straight lines, or an infinite number of zero length. Thus, a curve by definition doesn't have any straight lines. The orbit of an electron is circular, so an atom is circular. Throwing something in the air will draw a parabola, which is a perfect curve.

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Dave J
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 14:13
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Quote: "Why would you name a thread 'Interesting question' and then not ask a question?"


Hence my post of, "So what was your question?" - I was quite puzzled by what he was trying to find out.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Van B
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 14:39
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Erm....

What Pincho said.

Everything is made from molecules which are round, so really there is no such thing as a straight line, no such thing as a perfect shape, no such thing as an identical colour, no such thing as a curve. Take a microchip, one of the most exact devices known to man, miniscule components and circuitry - yet look close enough and you'd see all manner of defects and contamination. Even the most advance microchip is made from projecting an image onto silicon using analogue photographic techniques.

We will never be able to represent the world in any way that even comes close to the original source. Colour is a good example, I once asked a friend to guess how many colours were in the world, he guessed about 20 billion or something, but really colour is infinite, that red sock is infinately different from it's pair - even though to us they're a pair, they're actually completely different on a molecular level. We're lucky in our little computer generated worlds in video games, we're extremely lucky to be able to create our own environments that follow our own rules - we're all gods of our own creations, unfortunately our creations are vague representations of what we percieve and not really important to anyone else.


Van-B


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M00NSHiNE
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 14:44
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Sometimes I think the world is like the matrix, and I think earth has a bloody good graphics card because it can manage real time shadows and lighhting really well, with very little slow down in frame rate. Which is good.

(P.S. I'm only joking )

ZEDWARE website coming soon... //END TRANSMISSION//
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David T
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 14:45 Edited at: 17th Dec 2003 14:48
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Well here's something to twist your brain:

Lets say what you are seeing right now, wasn't what was there? IT's true, what you are "seeing" is not the same as what your eyes are telling you - just take for example opticale illusions.

A few more ideas:

- can you imagine another colour, currently not documented?
- what wuld it be like to be colourblind, have an operation to correct your eyesight then see colours for the first time?
- is what I see the same to what you see?YOu never know, what I call white could be what you call purple

One more thing:

- What is the point of life. What would happen if I wasn't here? Would it just be blank space? What does nothing look like?

btw the The Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything is 42.

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Chris K
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 14:46 Edited at: 17th Dec 2003 14:47
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@ Moonshine

What weird is that it could actually be crap compared to real life. The robots could be like : "How can they believe that? looks how slow it is and how low the resolution is! It doesn't even have proper gravity!!!"

We could never know.

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Van B
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 15:09
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Interesting thing about human eyesight is that we see the colour green a lot better than any other. IMO it's all a case of evolution, humans had to hunt for their food, we still do in some cases - I'm thinking that we see more shades of green so that we can distinguish prey against foliage, grass, and trees. Other animals have eyesight to suit their habits too - Bees for instance see the world in fantastic technicolor, so bright colours glow and they can find flowers easily - dogs see in black and white for some reason, maybe they spent more time developing their sense of smell and reflexes.

It is conceivable that we each see colour differently - I mean if you switched red and blue around, you'd know, but if red was always blue, how would we know the difference? - We learn colours by recognition, so I don't think we would. Thing is, it's all done by the brain, so swapping eyeballs with someone would proove nothing.


Van-B


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JSN
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 15:39
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Quote: "- is what I see the same to what you see?YOu never know, what I call white could be what you call purple"


This is actually true as the "rods" at the back of the retina are in different positions (kinda like a finger print), so each rod accepts a different amount of light and thus 'shading' is different.

Quote: "can you imagine another colour, currently not documented?"


Works party the other night, one of the girls threw up outside the restaurant and I'd never seen that shade before...

~ J ~
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Van B
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 16:01 Edited at: 17th Dec 2003 16:01
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Quote: "Works party the other night, one of the girls threw up outside the restaurant and I'd never seen that shade before..."


LMAO!

Diced carrot and aubergine sunset, according to the new Dulux colour chart.


Van-B


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JSN
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 16:02
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It was a carrotty colour, but I think that was the mixture of White Wine, Red Wine, Gaelic Coffee and cream...!

~ J ~
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JSN
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 16:04
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Hey VanB, lock your door in 2 weeks, I'll be in your area....!

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 16:36
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White = Purple? I doubt that the overall light percentage would change like that, otherwise you wouldn't be able to see white at all, and everything would be dark, you'd be almost blind. Colours could be different with the same amount of lightness though. Also I wonder if optical illusions would work if you saw colours differently from each other. Some optical illusions are based on colour, so how would they work if we didn't see the same colours as each other?

Quote: "What weird is that it could actually be crap compared to real life. The robots could be like : "How can they believe that? looks how slow it is and how low the resolution is! It doesn't even have proper gravity!!!"
"


I have to admit that I once ate something that I shouldn't have..well quite a few of them actually. (I was young!) It made me see things in a much higher res! When I looked at a cat I could see every hair on his body as an independant image. I could see how each hair was shaded as though I had a microscope. It was amazing! It tells me that we could possibly see things at a much higher res than we do now.

Pincho.
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JSN
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 16:41
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Quote: "I have to admit that I once ate something that I shouldn't have.."


ROFL - O YEAH!!!!

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 16:45 Edited at: 17th Dec 2003 16:46
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LOL! Don't try it!

Being as I am a lucid dreamer (I can control my dreams some of the time) I was able to control this situation in the same way. It is not advisable to try anything like this!
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JSN
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 16:45
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Zammo says "Just say no" (and look where it got him...!!)

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Van B
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 17:18
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Hehe, Pincho on shrooms! - imagine the funky lottery predicters we'd have then!.

When I said colours being switched round, I meant more primary colours - it'd be a helluva trippy world if purple was switched with white!.

JSN,
How come? - visiting folks for Hogmany? - Nobody celebrates new-year like the Scots .


Van-B


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JSN
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 17:32
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Certainly am my friend - just me and the m.r.s. Back up to Edinburgh for a week on the 29th. Use to live at Dalkeith, HillHead and Airdrie when working up there.

Can't wait....!!!!!!!

~ J ~
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Van B
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 17:45
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Cool! - Edinburgh is an awesome place at this time of year, have a good one .


Van-B


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JSN
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 17:49
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Certainly will. Cheers....

~ J ~
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Epimetheus
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 22:58
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How did this get into colors...?
once again I'll try to explain:
Lets say we have an object, a sphere, now, in theory, spheres have an infinite amount of sides, correct? So, based on that, could anything in the real world have an infinite amount of sides? Therefore a curve, made of matter, cannot exist.

BTW to the people who were wondering my question, if you were paying attention to the posts you would know it.
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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 23:21
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Quote: "Well you could break the straight lines down into smaller parts...molecules! They are round aren't they? "


how do you know thier round?

And molecules ARENOT the smallest part...next thier are ATOMS...then elections, protons, neutrons...then nutrinos (I think, im not so sure...they sound like viatamins)

Amist the Blue Skies...
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Scraggle
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Posted: 17th Dec 2003 23:48 Edited at: 17th Dec 2003 23:49
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Quote: "spheres have an infinite amount of sides, correct?"


No that is not correct! Not correct at all!

A true mathamatical sphere has ONE side - it's area can be calculated by using (4*PI*R^2)

Quote: "how do you know thier round?
"


Do you have evidence to the contrary?

GOD exists and his name is Jonny Wilkinson

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 18th Dec 2003 00:20 Edited at: 18th Dec 2003 00:25
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Quote: "BTW to the people who were wondering my question, if you were paying attention to the posts you would know it. "


There is no question in your first post.

Pincho.

Edit: Actually there is no question in any of your posts. Exept these...

Quote: "How did this get into colors...?
....could anything in the real world have an infinite amount of sides? "


But they were in your last post.
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Dave J
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Posted: 18th Dec 2003 00:27
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Quote: "- can you imagine another colour, currently not documented?
- what wuld it be like to be colourblind, have an operation to correct your eyesight then see colours for the first time?
- is what I see the same to what you see?YOu never know, what I call white could be what you call purple "


I wonder about those all the time lol. My Dad's colourblind so I always try to ask him what colour he sees instead of red & green but he can't tell me.

No one ever sees the exact same colour, we all have different numbers of receptors on the back of our eyes, if you have more red receptors then you will see more red and the red in objects will look stronger. The same goes for Green and Blue. However, I don't think it's possible to see a completely different colour, our bodies just aren't made in a way to do that.

Finally, an interesting fact: Did you know that when our eyes see an image, it is actually flipped upside down and our mind automatically corrects it so we can see the right way? If our mind didn't do this then we would see the world upside down everyday!


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 18th Dec 2003 00:33 Edited at: 18th Dec 2003 00:37
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Quote: "Finally, an interesting fact: Did you know that when our eyes see an image, it is actually flipped upside down and our mind automatically corrects it so we can see the right way? If our mind didn't do this then we would see the world upside down everyday!
"


That has been accepted as common knowledge, but I am looking at string theory, and thinking that it might not be true. Well, not if strings work the way that I think they work..Sorry.. just another Pinchoism.

Edit: Can't remember why I thought that a couple of weeks ago, but It does seem somehow wrong with the evidence of projections.

Pincho.
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qwe
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Posted: 18th Dec 2003 17:03
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about hte colors
what we "see" is how the brain categorizes different ways light reaches our retina. the brain, if it wanted to, could add a new color, its just a new way of seeing, to "us" our consious selves it would be amazing but "colors" around really anything except the brain's perception of light patterns
maybe or maybe not we can edit our brains to get a new primary color, im not sure.. u probly could double the amount of primary colors u see by making the secondary colors new primary colors or something..

i think that particles get smaller and smaller infinitely, as had been said by me and someone else earlier in this post, therefore a curve is possible.

if we saw everything upside down we would be used to it and it'd be normal
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JoelJ
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Posted: 18th Dec 2003 18:27
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Quote: "if we saw everything upside down we would be used to it and it'd be normal "


maybe everything IS upside down...

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