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AppGameKit Classic Chat / We Need More Power...

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GarBenjamin
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Posted: 5th Jul 2017 02:27 Edited at: 5th Jul 2017 02:28
... People Power!

I've noticed that although these forums seem to be a little more active recently than they were at the end of the last year they are still pretty quiet.

Is this solely due to the size of the community or do most of the people here just spend more time developing than they do posting on the forums... or a combination of the two?

App Game Kit 2 is really a fantastic game development tool. I think it deserves to have a lot more game developers using it.

Seems like the more users the more money TGC makes and the more updates they can do making it even better and that brings in more users that allows more updates and... so on.

And that reminds me I wanted to grab some stuff on the Summer Sale to support TGC so I guess I will go do that now.

Anyway, I want to thank you guys for making this because it really is excellent. It makes game dev fun for me again.
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
PartTimeCoder
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Posted: 5th Jul 2017 05:23
I think the thing with most 'game devs' is they want easy point and click, no code, no stress dev environments and AppGameKit is a pure programmers tool, most novices give up and opt for nice drag n drop interfaces, pure code games and apps are not easy to get to grips with and such tools attract a niche crowd, that's my take anyway.

remember AppGameKit is still relatively new and not very mature yet, the addition of a comprehensive visual designer may attract new followers, considering what AppGameKit can do and the platforms it can compile for I would imagine it would attract quite a following and although the forums seem to stagnate from time to time there is still always a huge amount of anonymous users surfing at any one time, that would suggest a lot of researchers or non posters getting to grips with the language, soon after I first purchased AppGameKit I became a bit disheartened by the lack of updates but soon after that they came thick and fast, I thought I brought a lemon but was proved wrong.

AGK is a great tool, so good I brought it twice lol
GarBenjamin
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Posted: 5th Jul 2017 05:35

Ha ha! That's awesome support to purchase it twice.

I grabbed Game Guru Loader, the AppGameKit Game Pack 1 and then an Unlimited Bundle for Game Guru just a bit ago. I don't know if I will ever use GG but I think I might some time. Mainly I just want to make sure they feel a little motivation to keep pushing forward improving these products. I think they are making some very special stuff here. I honestly do. I've searched all around the net and checked out many different game dev "kits" and AppGameKit stands out to me. I'm completely the opposite of the normal game dev you described though. For me I want code and only code (well other than using content oriented tools when the time is right but I mean I don't want some visual designer popping up every time I start a project or open a project to work on a game).
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
PartTimeCoder
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Posted: 5th Jul 2017 05:48
Ha yeah I know how you feel, I got GameMaker the full studio and just hate using it, it's handy in some respects but like you I'd rather just code, coming from many years using PureBasic I'm used to creating a complete application using just code and if anything its a far greater sense of achievement and teaches you far more than cumbersome script-let tools like GM: S. I don't have the GG loader yet as my poor laptop does not run the IDE very well its very slow and gittery which is a shame because I'd quite like to try it out.

Maybe a new PC for Christmas
MikeHart
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Posted: 5th Jul 2017 06:04
Short answer. The more time you spend on a forum, the less time you are developing a game.
Plus AppGameKit is so damn easy to use.
Running Windows 7 Home, 64 bit, 8 GB ram, Athlon II X2 255, ATI Radeon HD 4200. Using AGK2 Tier 1.
janbo
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Posted: 5th Jul 2017 15:04 Edited at: 19th Jul 2017 18:46
I came from QBasic to DBClassic to DBPro to AppGameKit and was constantly looking into other Game dev tools and programming languages and I learned some programming languages in school and university, I also had the luck to get showed how to build an Engine with C++ and OpenGL by Nvidia staff, so I have an idea how the interior of AppGameKit looks like.
I was quiet for a long time and did some postings at the German DBpro forum, so we might be the tip of the iceberg maybe ?
I love how fast and easy it can be to create something in AppGameKit, on the other side it is enough for me to know that I could do it myself in C++ and OpenGL theoretically... but i don't have to, as AppGameKit provides everything I need.
The only thing I could need is a math library and access to the Model View and Projection matrices used by AGK(broad hint...and i'll don't stop)
I don't want to drag and drop something to create stuff, it feels ...weak...
Quote: "Seems like the more users the more money TGC makes and the more updates they can do making it even better and that brings in more users that allows more updates and... so on."

The more the better...also newcomers might have new ideas or invent some new stuff for us to play with.

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Posted: 5th Jul 2017 22:38
I'm still here.
GarBenjamin
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Posted: 6th Jul 2017 17:01 Edited at: 6th Jul 2017 17:03
Great to hear from you all!

Ha ha @MikeHart that is true there seems to be a link between time spent on a game dev forum and time not spent on actual game dev. I also think spending some time on the forums does build a sense of real community with people getting to know each other a little bit better, sharing ideas, helping each other and just sparking creativity through discussions.

Plus a more active community (well... actively posting at least lol) I think is more appealing for bringing new people in. Many times I have checked out various game dev tools and one of the first things I did was visit the forums. If they felt like ghost towns I concluded said product was dead and moved on.

Not saying these forums are like a ghost town but I do think they could use a little more activity. So you all will have to please bear with me while I attempt to bring a little more life to them (ideally without being banned). lol
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
nz0
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Posted: 7th Jul 2017 01:29
@Janbo - QBasic. There's a blast from the past. I did some nice stuff with that back in the day

I saw in a post someone said that 95% of AppGameKit users use 5% of what it can do and 5% use 95% (or something like that). I agree. There's a huge amount of dabbling and (probably) some get put off by the lack of things being done for you.
I've been doing stuff with AppGameKit for a long time and I've been hot and cold with it to be honest.

At the moment, I'm actively working on stuff and have some nice projects in the pipeline. A lot of people on here have made some excellent products and there are plenty of people on here who help others as well, without necessarily any "productions" appearing from them.

It's difficult to finish things off. Lots of people can make a mediocre game and that's a problem across the board. To drive through the boring part to achieve a class product is very difficult. I'm not motivated by money and my games take as long as they take to appear.
I've spent several days making a test rig for my testers to design custom chase cameras for my current game. All that code is just so I can get other people to input into the design without a) me translating for them and b) they are actively part of the design.
My last game had 200 testers at one point and they all had an input, but this didn't happen in the AppGameKit forums, so it's not immediately obvious how busy some people may be with this platform.

GarBenjamin
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Posted: 7th Jul 2017 02:10 Edited at: 7th Jul 2017 02:22
@nz0 Oh yeah from what I've seen it is a very helpful community and that is great. So... you're saying that many people know AppGameKit very well and help others sort out problems with their game projects but the helpers don't actually produce any completed games themselves? That's interesting. So they spend their time doing experiments I guess just trying things out?

Your Robotron in 3D game is very interesting to me. Looking forward to you completing it.

Yes, I am the same as far as the money thing. The stuff I have made the past many years has all been just for me, family & friends or in more recent years shared for free online.

200 testers is a crazy high number. Awesome that you got so many people willing to test your game and give you feedback. That had to be of tremendous value.
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
PartTimeCoder
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Posted: 7th Jul 2017 03:57
Quote: "So... you're saying that many people know AppGameKit very well and help others sort out problems with their game projects but the helpers don't actually produce any completed games themselves? That's interesting. So they spend their time doing experiments I guess just trying things out?"


Lol that would be me, nearly 20 years I've been coding and produced many windows applications both commercial and personal freeware, everything from database frontends to image editors, plugins and library's for a variation of systems but never produced a completed game, I must have 50+ started projects awaiting my return, I get sidetracked and just give up, I don't do this for money either but I have earned quite a few pound notes over the years mainly from making plugins, making a system do what it can not already do, its where I feel I excel, when it comes to games though I think I need a project manager to keep me on track.

I consider myself to be a half decent programmer, give me a specific problem and 99% of the time I will solve it, I just don't have a great imagination or any artistic skills to speak of, not good traits for game development!
GarBenjamin
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Posted: 7th Jul 2017 04:22 Edited at: 7th Jul 2017 05:15
@PartTimeCoder Ha ha. I can relate. I have far more unfinished games and other experiments than I do completed ones and even less released ones. But I've been working on changing that these past few years. Trying to focus more on much smaller projects... tiny games that I can complete before I get completely burnt out (which doesn't take too long).

Graphics are not my thing either. I can probably do a fairly decent job if I put the time into it but I don't have the desire and passion to put that time into graphics. One of the big things I am focusing on recently is to focus on highly simplifying the graphics.

Not sure if you saw my single screen 3D shmup game but that is an example of it. I want to use my programming skill to add visual interest rather than laboring on graphics more directly.

That uses nothing but cubes. Even all of the particles are nothing but colored cubes that are used both for the explosion flashes as well as the debris that flies out. Player's missiles are stretched cubes and so forth. I did texture the player and enemies but again very simply. I didn't have much time to focus on that aspect (yet I spent more time than I should have) but there is some visual appeal there and it comes from a combination of colors, simple programming and a focus on the behaviors. Just little things like a simple tilting animation for the invaders when they move horizontally, a full rotation when they move down, etc.

I really think for those of us who have far more skill in programming we need to rely on that to make things look interesting. I'm sure you remember all of the demos and games from the 80s and 90s on home computers. They were mainly made by very skilled programmers and to jazz them up they focused on sinus scrolls, liquid metal, color and other FX to make the games (at least the stat bar or title screens lol) look very cool. Just my opinion here but I think this is what we need to do. A person could make a game with nothing but 2D rectangles or 3D cubes and yet that game could be so alive from the programming it would be an awesome sight.

I guess basically not so much make a graphically superb looking game but I believe a programmer can make a very visually interesting game. At least that is what I hope to explore in my future projects.
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
nz0
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Posted: 10th Jul 2017 02:46
Which is why my latest project is voxel based. I can't be doing with team games anymore (at least free ones) as everyone seems to think there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
I'm just in it for the fun, which means it's all about the enjoyment not the goal.

I was a demo coder in the golden age (80s/90s) and that my friends is where the real deal is; pushing the boundaries of the environment to the limit and not flushing it out with cute gfx or garbage.

@Garbenjamin I totally get you and I got some of your mojo from your space invaders game. (I rarely comment on the showcase, only where I am impressed) so big up! I saw the talent there


GarBenjamin
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Posted: 10th Jul 2017 17:19
@nz0 Well thanks for that I appreciate it. Likewise I find your 3D robotron-inspired game quite interesting.

I do agree there is way too much focus on graphics just for the sake of graphics these days. I don't want to get into major discussions on it here because I've done it enough over on the Unity forums over the years where I swear sometimes people think the graphics are the game. lol
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
tmu
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Posted: 11th Jul 2017 11:52
Cute gfx don't make a game but poor graphics combined with poor game mechanics is one way of making it very hard to succeed. Performance alone won't save you there.

Certainly the 80s/90s demoscene was nice and really pushed the boundaries. It's also a nice time to remember because how times get nostalgic and the period of life it was for many.

But I find the most successful demos still had beautiful effects built on top of those highly optimized routines and HW hacks. Not just highly optimized routines and clever tricks. Except maybe a few which just focused on a clever hack enabling a new effect. But I doubt if the general public will make your game a success just because you had 10x the sprites but poor graphics/audio and gameplay. The best demos also had great graphics and audio, often nicely synchronized and maybe made just with that demo in mind.

I think you can succeed with basic gfx but also with reasonable performance. I think it is more about tuning the gameplay, mechanics and the concept to your resources. And making it work with your style of gfx and programming. That is maybe the first 10% you need, then 90% luck or something I have no idea, the market is these days very competitive and hard And my track record at making anything successful poor so maybe that says about my opinions

GarBenjamin
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Posted: 11th Jul 2017 16:12 Edited at: 11th Jul 2017 16:52
@tmu I get what you're saying and I basically agree. I think it is more of just a case of semantics. The game / demo has to look good... I just consider good to actually mean interesting (or even exciting) in this context.

Awesome graphics in and of themselves sure I think they can get a lot of attention and rightly so. BUT... there is no meaning to that beyond hey that looks awesome. If it were in a gallery it would make more sense. In a game graphics are not meant to simply be looked at. In fact doing so may well result in the player's death. In this way even awesome graphics can actually be at odds with the game itself.

I see graphics in games as having two goals... primary goal is to communicate with the player. This is where you are now, this is the situation, this is what you need to know right now at this moment. Feedback. That is the primary purpose. And secondary goal I think is to create an interesting looking game world. But again that doesn't necessarily mean absolute graphics quality; instead it can mean energy / life / motion / color / animation etc.

Look at a professional nature photograph... a scene... that is the best as far as realistic graphics... and sure we can appreciate the beauty of the scene and skill of the photographer. But imagine now that is the game world and all the player can do is walk around. And there is nothing in there actually doing anything. No motion. No "life" so to speak. Nothing to interact with. It would be a very boring game.

Contrast that with a game that had everything built out of colored rectangles or cubes. And the world feels very much "alive". There is a lot of subtle motion. And color. And although simple rectangle / cube based objects nearly everything can be interacted with to some degree. I think this would be a far more visually interesting and certainly much better game experience.

Of course a lot of it depends on the goal... the mood of the game. Limbo would have a very different style for example. But still is a great example. Simple silhouettes made for a superb looking game.... or did it? I think it made for a very interesting looking game.

All just my opinion but I think many people focus solely on raw graphics quality and that shouldn't be the goal. As far as graphics are concerned the goal should be to create a visually interesting game. Not make a game with awesome graphics. They can be the same thing but many times they are not.
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
tmu
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Posted: 12th Jul 2017 04:55
@garbenjamin I guess everyone agrees just the semantics as you say. The game design overall matters, including an overall visual experience. And the mechanics, experience, gameplay, whatever you call it. Nice graphics nor optimized code wont make a great game alone. Doesn't hurt of course, and it should not be laggy nor visually unpleasant poop.

This seems to have digressed quite far from your original post. Which has an important message in itself as well..
Xaby
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Posted: 12th Jul 2017 09:52
@PartTimeCoder
PartTimeCoder wrote: " I don't have the GG loader yet as my poor laptop does not run the IDE very well its very slow and gittery which is a shame because I'd quite like to try it out."


Maybe that could be the motivation, to create a little 3D editor with the *.X-assets and textures from First Person Shooter Creator Classic or GameGuru
janbo
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Posted: 12th Jul 2017 12:14 Edited at: 19th Jul 2017 18:46
Quote: "I think it is more about tuning the gameplay, mechanics and the concept to your resources. And making it work with your style of gfx and programming"

I totally agree with that !
I think you can even make Pong attractive to kids nowadays with smooth animations particle effects and don't forget the screen-shake but it must fit to the concept of the game. (The mechanic is good already)

Videos you have to know if you talk about that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy0aCDmgnxg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmSAG51BybY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJdEqssNZ-U&t=1618s

We are crafting an experiences... so make it appealing for every single click.
Also... as an Indie game dev you sometimes need to work with what you have and not what you would like to have... so consider that in your game design.

Using AGKv2 Tier1
GarBenjamin
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Posted: 12th Jul 2017 15:10
@janbo I "knew" one of those was probably the juice it vid and one the equivalent vlambeer vid. lol

Have seen those posted many times over on the Unity forums and they are great videos & perfectly illustrate the concepts of making things interesting. This to me (and I am sure to many of you!) is not something new it is basically what the demo coders were doing long ago... juicing it up! I also have always seen it as basically being part of the polishing stage.

What these young hip fellas have done is sort of expanded on it here & there and kind of formalized in these presentations.

I agree applying this kind of thinking to any game will increase the visual interest because it is adding motion, colors, etc making things more lively and can also definitely improve the feel because it is emphasizing strong feedback.

Thanks for sharing those videos. They are always worth watching again!
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
GarBenjamin
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Posted: 12th Jul 2017 15:27
@tmu ah I'm used to nearly every thread going off the tracks (happens very often on the Unity forums) and it is fine.

The main thing is we're having some interesting discussions and hopefully having fun doing so. And these discussions will probably be interesting to others in the future.

Ha ha laughing about the bit where you said "visually unpleasant poop". The thing is that really is such a personal thing. What one person calls crap graphics many people may like and vice versa.

There are a lot of people who dislike the cartoony vector hd art (think it is mobile game only). Others dislike 2D pixel art... period. Some people want every game to look like the latest AAA releases or else they say it looks like poop. The way I see that is those people aren't my target market.

I'm very interested in reducing graphics down considerably. Ideally just rectangles / cubes and other primitives. Again all brought to life through (simple) programming. This way I can focus more on the game itself. And I'm sure there will be a lot of people who say "looks like poop!" but those people are not who the game is made for.
TI/994a (BASIC) -> C64 (BASIC/PASCAL/ASM/Others) -> Amiga (AMOS/BLITZ/ASM/C/Gamesmith) -> DOS (C/C++/Allegro) -> Windows (C++/C#/Monkey X/GL Basic/Unity/Others)
Supertino
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Posted: 19th Jul 2017 15:12
If you want to talk about communities, I hung on in there with BlitzMax up to the point the forums where shuttered last month, they had not been "active" for probably two or more years, there was a core group of maybe ~30 that posted and answered help questions etc but we could go days without a news post on any topic.

Some background - I've been a 'blitz' boy since the original Blitzbasic appeared on the PC in 2000, before that I used it on the Amiga, hell I even held out for an Amiga comeback only finally moving to PC in 1999. At the time you either went to darkbasic or blitzbasic, I like to think there was some rivalry between to the two camps but here probably wasn't. Once the blitzmax forums shut down that was queue to move on. Oddly I still support Monkey2 @ $10\month on Patreon which I'll continue to do until the end of the year if only for a "thanks for memories".

Back to now - From what I have seen from my short time here the activity is noticeably higher, its not like the old days when Basic languages were king but I think we've lost out to the likes of Unity, GameMaker and other WYSIWYG tools, there is so much more choice.

Going forward - I'll continue to make my Retro 2D style games until I hit my head and can suddenly do awesome pixel art or better, until then Atari,C64, ZX is my Jam. I am currently making a "tron: deadly discs" homage as my first AppGameKit project, a few false starts as I am still adjusting the AppGameKit way of things but ts coming together.

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