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AppGameKit Classic Chat / Is a Sierra - King's Quest style game possible with AppGameKit Classic? Also a couple of other similar questions.

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gluestix
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Joined: 25th Jul 2021
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Posted: 25th Jul 2021 14:26
Hi, I'm new here. To be clear, I fully understand that a game is developed with the amount of effort you put into it. So, for sure, most engines can do almost anything possible as long as they provide sound and graphics and input capapbilities. I have a more specific question as I have been exploring different engines.

To put it simply, my first question is this: Can AppGameKit Classic be used easily to create a King's Quest style game. Is changing from room to room or scene to scene straightforward and how is graphics performance. Today there are 140hz 200hz and etc monitors. Will the engine correctly adapt for really smooth animation and gameplay with it's sprite rendering.

The second question: This is simple. The Nintendo 64 had Mario 64. Can there be a complete remake of that game in AppGameKit Classic. Is it a simple yes/no answer or are there some exceptions to the rule.

If you answer these questions clearly for me, it can give me a better idea on how much effort can be put into that type of projects. After that, I know that AppGameKit can be used to make royalty free games, so it's just a question as to wether or not a commercial project would be worth it in the long run. Keep in mind I'm not a professional developer, but I'm trying to get into the mindset of such.

Thanks in advance...
hendron
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Joined: 20th Dec 2015
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Posted: 25th Jul 2021 17:43
Quote: "Can AppGameKit Classic be used easily to create a King's Quest style game. "

You can make a King's Quest style game in AppGameKit, sure. Easily is subjective, though. I would say that if you have to ask, then no, it definitely won't be easy.

Quote: "Is changing from room to room or scene to scene straightforward"

AGK Classic has no built in concept of rooms or scenes -- how you handle that is up to you.

Quote: "a game is developed with the amount of effort you put into it."

This is the answer to most "can I make [x] game in [y] engine" type questions, really. You can make these projects with AppGameKit, but start with smaller projects first.
PartTimeCoder
AGK Tool Maker
9
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Joined: 9th Mar 2015
Location: London UK
Posted: 25th Jul 2021 17:58
AGK like any other engine can make any type of game you can imagine with enough effort but like most other engines there are always obstacles that you need to overcome, engines like Unity and Godot have all the tools in agk your making them yourself in most cases, this can put a lot of people off, if you are prepared to first make your engine so you can build your game from it then you are in the right place.

If you want to makes a game with minimal effort then you are surly in the wrong place, your better off with a All-In-Package like game maker or godot etc etc, pure code engines like AppGameKit, PureBasic, Raylib take a concerted effort to be a good programmer rather than a game designer.

What you need to ask yourself is : "Do I want to be a game developer or a game designer", believe it or not there is a massive difference.

I am a developer, I am good with code and I can make things happen but I am no game designer, what are your strong points?, Artistic, Technical ETC, Play off your strong points, only you can decide.

And yes AppGameKit could make a Mario64 clone no problem you could also remake Mario3D if you can afford the lawsuites! lol

Whatever you decide I guarantee if you stick with AppGameKit you will not regret it, its a great engine and so easy to learn.





gluestix
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Posted: 25th Jul 2021 18:43
I was so impressed by Classic that I purchased one of the bundles so I'm going through tutorials now. Thak you for the responses. I posted another thread asking about changing scenes but it was before hendron mentioned that you have to set that up yourself in classic. Once my post is actually posted, if anyone is interested in elaborating on that it could be helpful to me.

I have some programming experience with Visual Basic and I dabbled a little here and there with C++, but AppGameKit Classic is so great to use that I think I will be on it for the near future.
n00bstar
20
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Joined: 9th Feb 2004
Location: Montreal, Canada.
Posted: 25th Jul 2021 19:54
Short answer: Yes it can.

Long answer: Yes it caaaaaaaaaaaaaaan.

Real answer: AppGameKit is not an engine, it's a programming language. You have years of learning to do before you can code something as complex as King Quest or Mario 64 of all things. Aim low. Very low. Start with Space Invader and see if you can see that project to its end. 99% of people can't. Judging from your questions, you have no idea what you're getting into. Lower your expectations, because you will be amazed at how quickly this stuff gets complex and how software don't work anything like the way you thought they did. I'm not saying that to discourage you, it's just the reality of things. It requires a lot of patience, and most of all, a lot of being able to figure stuff out by yourself. If you think you got it, then by all means, jump in!. Just be prepared because it's not just a question of putting stuff up on screen and creating game rules
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Conjured Entertainment
AGK Developer
19
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Joined: 12th Sep 2005
Location: Nirvana
Posted: 27th Jul 2021 02:57
Quote: "So, for sure, most engines can do almost anything possible as long as they provide sound and graphics and input capapbilities"


What noobstar said is spot on... "Real answer: AppGameKit is not an engine, it's a programming language."


Quote: "
I have some programming experience with Visual Basic and I dabbled a little here and there with C++, but AppGameKit Classic is so great to use that I think I will be on it for the near future.
"

You should do well with AppGameKit having that experience.

Welcome to the fun.



Coding things my way since 1981 -- Currently using AppGameKit V2 Tier 1
jd_zoo
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Location: Nova Scotia
Posted: 29th Jul 2021 02:01
If I were you, I would start with making a simple object you can move around with the mouse or keyboard keys, and then when it reaches the "end" of the scene you can change the background. Build from there.

If you are going classic Sierra (Space Quest 3 is my all time fave game) then the text interface will take some serious thought...
JonEnstrom
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Posted: 29th Jul 2021 12:59
I agree with the overall sentiments already mentioned, but I think it's worth mentioning again that AppGameKit has no design tools so when you are talking about "making" a game like kings quest you would really be doing the vast majority of the work in some other piece of software (image editor / painting software).

"Making" a game like that requires a ton of art and story board, etc. AppGameKit doesn't provide any tools to make any content. If you had all those "assets" ready to go then using AppGameKit to framework the gameplay itself would be relatively easy yes.
Pfaber1
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Joined: 7th Jan 2018
Location: England
Posted: 30th Jul 2021 13:58
Since you have some experience with C++ I think you will love AppGameKit Classic or Studio. At least you know what programming is all about , If you had no experience at all I would still recommend AppGameKit but be prepared to put in many hours and months before completing your first simple game. My first game in AppGameKit took me 6 weeks to complete and it was terrible to be honest and I had made one before that in Blitz3D also pretty bad. However with every new project they have gotten way better.
I think if I were you though I'd go for AppGameKit Studio but that's just my liking . Whatever you decide to do good luck.
PartTimeCoder
AGK Tool Maker
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Posted: 30th Jul 2021 14:31
I have been coding over 20 years and I learn something new everyday.

or, remember something I had previously forgotten I knew, not quite sure on that one!
Open Source plugins
Cl - DnD Plugin
Raven
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Joined: 23rd Mar 2005
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 8th Aug 2021 21:51
Quote: "To put it simply, my first question is this: Can AppGameKit Classic be used easily to create a King's Quest style game. Is changing from room to room or scene to scene straightforward and how is graphics performance. Today there are 140hz 200hz and etc monitors. Will the engine correctly adapt for really smooth animation and gameplay with it's sprite rendering."


AGK will not add Interpolated Frames to Image Animation (i.e. Sprites)., but a basic Animation concept is that Humans will interpret (visually) as low as 7.5 Frames (Images) as a "Fluid" Motion.
This is Hand-Drawn Cartoons were able to get away with creating shows for TV on such a condensed time-frame... because they're drawing more simplified versions and as few images as possible to convey the "Action" on-screen.

Seriously, if you have a Video Player that supports Frame-by-Frame Controls; load up an old Animated TV Show and you'll see most actually have very little in the way of total frames to comprise a complete shot.
I mean other methods are to use Static Frames and only move important elements... say like a Mouth and Eyes for when characters are Talking to each other.
Very similar techniques were used in old Sierra Adventure Games as well., both to cut down on Development time, but also to conserve Storage Space... Animation is Space Intensive.

Now why is this important to keep in mind? Well because the same ends up true even with more Frames Per Second... we can essentially use the 7.5 FPS as our "Benchmark" as it were for a Minimum when we're upscaling to Higher Refresh Rates... so let's say we have 30 FPS Animation., but we want to run at at 120Hz; well then we simply write the Animation Engine in a way that it hold each Frame of Animation for (RefreshRate / IntendedFPS).
Thus we'd still get the intended 30FPS Playback regardless of Display Refresh.

There is another (albeit more processing time intensive, and best to do it as a Pixel Shader) called Frame Interpolation... in essence this is another technique somewhat borrowed from VHS or CRT Displays; where-in 2 Frames would be Composited Together over a number of Frames; with which way they'd blend be based upon a percentage of the frames between.
So again we use our 30FPS Animation to 120Hz., this is 4 Frames = 1 Frame., but we can interpolate these to be 100:0 > 66:33 > 33:66 > 0:100 and thus those two frames in-between if we were to look at them as Static Frames would look out-of-focus and bad; but IF we look at them in motion, well your brain takes over and essentially adds the additional frames.

Mind a Simple LERP Mix will have noticeable ghosting., to reduce this you can use a Motion Vector approach; which would blend only the pixel elements that change; thus you get the ghosting on just the motion pixels... it's how a lot of Modern Smart TVs handle what they call Motion Prediction to give the illusion of a Higher Framerate for TV Shows and Movies; and it actually works exceptionally well unless someone chose to use the "Shaky Cam" technique that was popular during the Mid-2000s to add "Realism" or "Documentary" feel to something.

Personally I'd say it's better figuring out what Framerate you want to use; and force a Refresh of 30 / 60 / etc.
Remember Pre-Canned Animation (akin to TV Shows, Film, or Adventure Games) is actually FINE to have Lower Refresh Rates while still having a Smooth Appearance... because what causes it to FEEL bad in most games is actually the Input Latency between when you press a button on a Controller and when the Action actually happens.
In Action Games, you want this to be as Low as possible; where-as Adventure games you're more giving a "Suggestion" rather than directly controlling things; so input latency is less of a "thing" and so there is a dissonance between Image and Controls that plays to your favour.

For example Ori at 120Hz is just beautiful due to nearly no input latency., makes the game just feel so fluid and responsible; and more beautiful... but Deponia feels just as good at 30 (with 15 FPS Animation) because it's Point-and-Click.

Quote: "The second question: This is simple. The Nintendo 64 had Mario 64. Can there be a complete remake of that game in AppGameKit Classic. Is it a simple yes/no answer or are there some exceptions to the rule."


You could produce a near 1:1 remake of Mario 64., of course certain techniques such-as Triangular Filtering is a bit of a pain to do in Shaders; and Bilinear Filter (which AppGameKit uses by Default) isn't quite the same.
So, yes.

The thing is should you start to get more Modern / Complex... eh., well that's where you might run into difficulties.
On top of this the Audio System and Controller Support is far from ideal; keep in mind AppGameKit was designed more primarily for Mobile Smart Devices... and not even Modern ones but 1st to 3rd Gen type Devices (not that it runs very well on them).

Quote: "If you answer these questions clearly for me, it can give me a better idea on how much effort can be put into that type of projects. After that, I know that AppGameKit can be used to make royalty free games, so it's just a question as to wether or not a commercial project would be worth it in the long run. Keep in mind I'm not a professional developer, but I'm trying to get into the mindset of such."


I would use AppGameKit for Pet / Hobby / Prototype Projects... something where you're trying to get down the general idea, or you're not too bothered about adding "Professional Polish"
It's great for small projects., small ideas., and just general tinkering.

I mean it's a bit like say learning to Play the Guitar... you might get a budget £50 Guitar off of Amazon., which is fine for plucking away on you own; but if you want to actually play in a Bar or such; let alone have ambitions of actually doing Music Professionally at some point; well you'd end up getting a more expensive and BETTER Guitar once you have that confidence and skill.
AGK is essentially that starter Guitar.

And I'm not saying this to be mean., it's not like AppGameKit couldn't be a much more professional grade product for producing more professional work; being a proper alternative to established Industry Middleware.
AGK has two key issues holding it back... the AppGameKit Script (being a BASIC-like Scripting Engine), which is EXCEPTIONALLY Slow and the fact that TGC can't seem to decide if they want the built-in Functionality to be an API (thus giving you the complete freedom to create an Engine from the ground up, like what Dark BASIC Professional had; which was essentially DirectX 9.0c for BASIC) or if they want it to be an Engine akin to Unity 3D where things are taken care of for you.
Well that, and they've an inconsistency when it come to Feature Support... and their updates seem far more focused on helping people monetise their Mobile Apps than ACTUALLY fix or address underlying issues.

It's a shame., as a Modern Dark BASIC would be the ultimate "Go-To" Tool for Independent Developers looking for more Developer (rather than Designer) approach to Game Development without needing to learn a more complex language like C++ and various APIs to create their own Engine.
Dark BASIC Professional was somewhat ideal as a Rapid Application Development Tool... BASIC as a Language is relative easy to understand and learn., while DirectX 9.0c was a Comprehensive API for Game Development; and converted into something a bit more Streamlined and BASIC Friendly; well it's what made Dark BASIC Professional one of THE most popular Indie Development Tools of it's time.

Then TheGameCreators abandoned it in favour of silly WYSIWYG Development tools like FPS Creator and Game Guru that saw very little success; likely because if you wanted to make an FPS., there was Source or Unreal Engine that were simply more comprehensive and just as straight forward; but with better base assets, graphics, optimisation and features.
And by the time GameGuru was made., well Unity 3D had become more or less what it is today (as opposed to what it started as., which was a Macintosh exclusive development tool inspired by DBP... that's not a joke either, search back through the forum; the original Developer WAS a Member on here and was showcasing Unity 3D during it's early development) ... again it was just BETTER and still is.



Personally I'd suggest using AppGameKit for Prototyping Ideas., then building them out on C++ with a Custom Engine.
It's great for prototyping and seeing if an idea will work... what need to get tweaked... scrapped... etc. before then committing the time and effort with a more bespoke approach.

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