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AppGameKit Studio Chat / According to eula, I cannot sell the game.

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cgw
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Posted: 12th Nov 2021 09:29
But you say i can sell games.
and who, then, to believe the Agreement or the Forum?
PLEASE You can create a beautiful agreement eula.[b]
Because writing games starts with him.
If it says that i can't make games for sale, then i can't make them for sale.

1.2 You are not permitted:
(b) or use, reproduce, exploit or deal in the Software or any part of it in any way;

(c) to copy or distribute to the public or otherwise exploit (on either a commercial or a non-commercial basis) any part of the Software other than within and as an integral part of an object code format App;

1.4 For the purposes of this Agreement the term 'App' means an interactive entertainment software game whose sole purpose is to entertain its user and which is made using the Software in accordance with its associated documentation. The term App expressly excludes:

(a) any software tool or software product which can (or might) be used in order to create further games or other software products;

in each case irrespective of whether or not the primary purpose of such software is to entertain its user.

<< It turns out that I can't make games for sale on Steam, only for myself. i create game yourself and play it yourself? >>

3. Ownership

You own only the media on which the Software is recorded. You may retain that media on termination of this Agreement provided the Software has been erased. The Owner shall at all times retain ownership of the Software and all subsequent copies of the same regardless of form. Accordingly, the owner continues to own copyright in the Software including any part of the Software (whether modified or not) which is comprised within an object code 'App'. This Agreement applies to the grant of the licence contained in this Agreement only and not to the contract of sale of the media.

>>> It turns out that you retain the rights to my works of authorship. As I understand it. <<<

Not very clear terms regarding your AppGameKit application or my application.
(I know that AppGameKit is copyrighted and I'm not going to do anything with it.)

And what about my application, which I compiled from AGK.

The agreement is not very clear about the concepts of your application, but as for my compiled game.

I translated eula Google by a translator, maybe it was not translated that way and I didn't understand the meaning? My main language is Russian.
PartTimeCoder
AGK Tool Maker
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Location: London UK
Posted: 12th Nov 2021 10:00
the media is the game you made, the software is the AppGameKit editor, your safe

you can not use AppGameKit to make anything that can make anything ..... in short, you can not use AppGameKit to make a game maker but you can make and sell any game you like

just dont make a game engine and you will be fine
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Raven
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Posted: 12th Nov 2021 13:23
Quote: "1.2 You are not permitted:
(b) or use, reproduce, exploit or deal in the Software or any part of it in any way;

(c) to copy or distribute to the public or otherwise exploit (on either a commercial or a non-commercial basis) any part of the Software other than within and as an integral part of an object code format App;"


This means AppGameKit (as an Application / Engine) MUST be exclusively used to produce Applications., and is not your property.
i.e. You are given unlimited license to produce Games or Applications with AppGameKit or the AppGameKit SDK., but you are not given license to re-sale, trade (in-part or whole) or freely give.
Arguably this would include but not be limited to as a Gift / Prize.

But I believe there is an exception / caveat for this later in the License Agreement.

Quote: "1.4 For the purposes of this Agreement the term 'App' means an interactive entertainment software game whose sole purpose is to entertain its user and which is made using the Software in accordance with its associated documentation. The term App expressly excludes:

(a) any software tool or software product which can (or might) be used in order to create further games or other software products;

in each case irrespective of whether or not the primary purpose of such software is to entertain its user."


This means you can ONLY make software (although the terminology of "Entertainment" I'd argue is incorrect in this instance) that cannot be used to create other Software.
That is to say., you can't create your own Middleware from the AppGameKit Middleware.

I'd argue this clause is poorly worded and does have a clear loophole., where-in Productivity Applications aren't expressly clarified under the Terms and Conditions of the Agreement.
What's more is the spirit is clearly an extension to the Section Clause that is basically trying to prevent re-sale of AppGameKit itself under a different name., i.e. Product "Flipping"
Still I'd argue this does end up somewhat restrictive as you couldn't make something like RPG Maker or an Interactive Story Development App... and Game SDK for Modification Purposes including the Development Tools would also be a grey area.

The Dark BASIC Professional License Agreement was much more clear., essentially denoting that you couldn't re-sale / re-package DBP in-part or whole as your own product but otherwise you have unlimited license for products you could produce with it.
As noted the spirit behind this section of the License Agreement is essentially supposed to be that... the problem is whoever drew it up is not very good at their legalese to convey that.
If you do have a question about the License Rights and Restrictions., I'd recommend E-mailing RickV @ TGC as any response he gives can be considered written consent / clarification in regards to interpretations of the License Agreement.

cgw
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Posted: 12th Nov 2021 16:02 Edited at: 12th Nov 2021 16:09
It would be correct to create two points.

* 1 refers to the description of the AppGameKit (engine) itself

* 2 for my game compiled with AGK

Due to the fact that it is not clear what these points relate to, to my game or to the AppGameKit (engine).

I decided to make a game. I read the agreement and it says that I can't even reproduce my compiled game, let alone sell. On the forum they say that yes, sell everything will be fine. But in the end, they will refer to the agreement, and not to the forum.

Naturally, I will choose a different engine. Because I don't even have the right to even exploit my game.
(I didn't even think about making an engine based on the engine.)

The Owner shall at all times retain ownership of the Software and all subsequent copies of the same regardless of form.

It turns out that I have no copyright for my works, they belong to AGK. And one fine moment AppGameKit will demand me to transfer my works to her, i.e. my game will become the property of AGK.
What kind of game creation can we talk about then?

Such an agreement scares people.
EULA must be changed.
It would also be correct to translate this into all languages (Or describe it very correctly so that it is translated correctly.).
Raven
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Posted: 12th Nov 2021 17:19
Quote: "Due to the fact that it is not clear what these points relate to, to my game or to the AppGameKit (engine)."


As most legal documents do., it clearly states declared terms ("App"), ("AGK"), ("Owner") within the context of the stipulated document or there-after declaration.
I also clarified this quite clearly what pertains to what.

Now frankly I find it exceptionally offensive how rude and dismissive people are with the responses that I provide them.
If you are THAT worried about the Terms and Conditions outlined within the Licensing Agreement., then have a certified Solicitor go over the document with you; as they will provide you with a complete and clear list of what is and isn't permissible via said legal document (and more specifically in regards to your LOCAL Law)
As with any Agreement., you are within your right to chose not to agree and thus not use said Software... but as I CLEARLY stated above., this section of the Agreement is exclusively stating that you can't simply repackage AppGameKit and try to pass it off as your own work.
What's more the section that I have an issue with., while legally binding under European Law; is invalid under British Business Law., because it is specifically stipulating against any form of competition product that uses their product as a foundation... provided something isn't going against the first stipulation (i.e. merely providing functionality "As-Is") within their product, you CAN NOT stipulate that you can't produce a competitor product.

As with any Legal Document., it's important to understand what CAN and CAN NOT be enforced or legally pursued by those who are upholding the Agreement.
For example I could put in to an EULA that by playing my game for more than 6 hours., you forfeit the rights to your 1st born child to me... which would essentially pertain to the Sale or Trade of an Individual., thus against (British) Slavery Laws and not enforceable.
I mean the same is true if I tried to hide a hidden requirement for a Subscription / Stipend that could result in Debt; without the actual Contract itself being a Subscription (or more specifically Financial Agreement) Contract... like you can put it in the agreement., but legally it can't be enforced; so is meaningless.

As for it being available in other languages... TheGameCreators is an English (British UK) Company., their only obligation is to provide any Agreements / Contracts in English; any other languages they may or may not chose to also provide in are entirely at their digression.
PartTimeCoder
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Posted: 12th Nov 2021 18:05
Quote: "(i.e. merely providing functionality "As-Is") within their product, you CAN NOT stipulate that you can't produce a competitor product."


I did read somewhere that this is the case, when a vendor removes itself from liability it also renders any usage agreement null and void, but case law suggest otherwise, this was discussed at length in the PureBasic forum some time back and a few cases were referred to where company's successfully sued people over usage violations thus setting a presidency in case law, but, this is conjecture I do not pretend to know the first thing about it

TGC did take a hard line years back, remember the 3d game maker app thingy had a dialog run with every game "if this game was sold to you please contact us" type of message so that was a game maker app that made games you can not sell which IMO is just plain wrong but it prompts the question "if I did use AppGameKit to make an engine would TGC sue me" ... probably, yes!, it only cost £60 in the UK to bring it to court, I know I am a builder I have had to drag many people into the legal system to get paid!

Quote: "It turns out that I have no copyright for my works, they belong to AGK. And one fine moment AppGameKit will demand me to transfer my works to her, i.e. my game will become the property of AGK.
What kind of game creation can we talk about then?"


No No No, No, TGC are not the CPP my Russian friend, the only place TGC stipulate that kind of licence is on the C++ lib source code on github, any code submitted becomes property of TGC and you wave all right to it which is fair enough, if TGC tried that then believe me I would be the first getting on a train to Leeds with a create of Molotov cocktails!, AppGameKit is royalty free, your games belong to you, today, tomorrow and everyday after, you really are reading far to much into the confusing legalise language, as long as you do not make a game engine you will never have a problem.

Just look through this forum, many users have commercial games for sale, TGC does not get a cut or own any aspect of any one of those games,, relax, and code your game, I reiterate, just don't make a game engine and you will be fine.

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ando
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Posted: 12th Nov 2021 18:53 Edited at: 12th Nov 2021 19:00
If I understand correctly...

1 Don't sell AppGameKit or AGKS.
2 Those products can be used to write your own games. You can sell your own games.
3 If you have a problem with writing your game then ask for help on the forum unless you can find the info already posted.
4 If you think you are the first to find a bug with AppGameKit or AGKS then make a post and others will help to confirm if it's a bug or not.
5 If you think you have a problem with rules or terms or the contract you have made or would make with the purchase of AppGameKit or AGKS then PM a MOD or go to The Game Creators web page and click on the Contact button up the top of the page and ask them a question.

Games you make are your property.
BASIC appeared in May 1964. Lightning flashed, the wind roared and the Earth moved.
And nine months later I was born.
So here I am.
I am Basic.
Code is in my genes.
cgw
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Posted: 13th Nov 2021 10:01
Quote: "Now frankly I find it exceptionally offensive how rude and dismissive people are with the responses that I provide them."


Sometimes it is hard for me to understand something, because I read the translated text. Russian has declensions, but English has no declensions. As a result, sometimes distortions of meaning are obtained in the translated text. I wasn't going to be rude, sorry.

Thank you all for clarification.

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