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Hello all,
I bought, played with and published a simple app using AppGameKit (I even bought the book!) about a dozen years ago. I remember enjoying the programming but, honestly, I found the company support to be mediocre. They'd race ahead with new features while the stability left much to be desired. Life got in the way, so I had to drop it all.

I'm back, reconsidering using it going forward, but was wondering what you folks think of it today. There are more such options these days and I am weighing them. I know C and BASIC well, but am not a big fan of C++.

Are their releases stable or are they crashy? How is the flow of cross-platform compilation and publishing? Do they still use a stub engine for iOS, for example? Are there still only two people in the company?

I am looking to develop on a Windows machine, targeting Android and iOS. Thank you in advance!

I never used AppGameKit before Version 2., so can't speak about the stability from then to now... but haven't had any major issues in terms of that.
With that said... there really isn't much difference between Version 2 and Studio.
And as Studio is what I more typically use., I will speak from that perspective ... but keep in mind that as they're essentially the same, consider it to also be true for "Classic" (Version 2).

Now I've been using AppGameKit since ~2017 (and became active in the community again ~2020)
During that time, the number of new Features / Functionality that I've seen added can be counted on one hand; unless we're talking about Mobile Exclusive Functionality to do with Monetisation.
Updates have in the past 12 - 18 months slowed to such a crawl that there have been (legitimate) questions raised about if The Game Creators have begun to Sunset AppGameKit.
And this is a problem, even *IF* AppGameKit is in Maintenance Mode; because Apple (iOS) and Google (Android) release regular updates to their SDK... we have found a few times support to output to these platforms has broken after the Platform Vendors release an update; then we have to wait Months (rather than Weeks or Days) for an AppGameKit Update to ship that corrects this issue.

It could be that said updates aren't easy to work around what is broken, but the lack of almost any communication definitely remains deeply concerning; especially for those who are using AppGameKit to produce Retail Products.

And it isn't that TGC are incapable of regular updates... as Game Guru Max (their current focus project) is seeing regular YouTube Update Videos, News, etc.
We have also learned in the past few months something many of us have suspected for a while., which is the head of the company (Lee Bamber) essentially believes that no one wants to Program/Code anymore in favour of Visual Middleware.

I think this is likely based upon Sales Figures for AppGameKit., and I recall him saying something similar during the end of Dark BASIC Professional' Support and their switch in focus to FPS Creator and the original Game Guru.

The thing is the issue isn't that people have "Given up on Programming" in favour of Visual Development... rather the issue is with how TGC themselves handle Product Releases, Updates and Support., especially in the face of Competition that are either better Value or more Feature Rich / Complete.

Version 2., should've been a Retail Replacement *not* a Free Upgrade to Version 1... with a clear timeline of End-of-Life / Long-Term Support for Version 1.
It also would've been a great opportunity to increase the "Minimum" Bar from OpenGL ES 1.1 to OpenGL ES 3.2, as well as place various long-requested features in the "Update Timeline"
As a keynote; Version 2 launched in 2014., 3 years after Version 1.

Version 3 (Studio), was kind of released in this way... which was a good idea; the problem is that all but the Vulkan Renderer improvements made to Studio have also been implemented in Version 2 and said changes weren't *AS* Big; meaning they were basically taking away ANY reason for anyone to upgrade... couple this with the fact that the Retail Price was essentially doubled., but again with very little reasons for people to _actually_ upgrade.
I mean again they had the change here to upgrade the "Minimum" Bar from OpenGL ES 1.1 to OpenGL (ES) 4.3 / Vulkan 1.x.
I'd also argue that Version 2 / Version 3 should've expanded support from Desktop (Linux/MacOS/Windows) and Mobile (Android/iOS) to Console (Xbox/PlayStation/Switch)
In fact I'd argue support for the Switch would've been a MAJOR selling point and seen a MASSIVE increase in Sales; especially as a major barrier to Switch Development (unlike Xbox and PlayStation) is the need to purchase a Developer Console in order to Develop for the Platform... which isn't massively expensive but it is a bit long winded and can be difficult.
AppGameKit having a Player that can be remotely (via a Network) Broadcast to for Development purposes., which itself can simply be pushed onto the Nintendo Store; well that would open up the ability for ANYONE to then Test and Develop on their Retail Unit; before then jumping through the hoops to get a Developer License and Kit... and such is MUCH easier if you have a Working Prototype of WHAT you want to put on there.

I mean I made this same argument with Dark BASIC Professional back in 2007., when Microsoft was first opening up the Xbox 360 with XNA; and consider how popular that became with some great games being released in 2008 - 2012 (when it was shutdown).
Unity 3D did this very move in 2008., today they're not only one of the key "Go To" Middleware for Independant / Small / Budget Developers but have become an Official Partner of Microsoft Game Studios and integrated into Visual Studio.

Instead TGC started making partnerships with NVIDIA, Aegis and Alienware.
I mean the other thing to consider is that they integrated Virtual Reality (VR/AR/XR) into AppGameKit., they've made some Visual VR Editors using the AppGameKit Middleware; but we never saw VR as a Native Feature of AppGameKit (AGK VR is great., but it's a 3rd Party Expansion) and what's more is they were doing this when PlayStation VR was being announced and launched... along with most of the major VR Players at the time.
Had VR been added as a "Root" Feature in Version 3 (Studio)., had they pushed partnerships with the key VR Vendors offering support for Oculus, WMR, SteamVR and PlayStation VR... again while I doubt we'd actually have seen much in the way of titles released with it; we would've seen a noticable increase in adoption for Studio.

---- • ----

Look I know this was a long rant., especially when the question was basically a "Should I get this?"
But my answer is... if you're looking for something that you can use to create software that you plan to Retail., then I'd say... No.
TGC from what has been said and their actions., seems to have AppGameKit on the backburner.
Support for the Mobile Platforms is for the moment working, but next week an update could release for one of the platforms and break it again for months; as TGC seem to have little desire to maintain it; and that is ALWAYS going to be the problem with a Mobile Middleware, you either are Actively Supporting it *or* within 12 Months it'll become unsupported on Active Platforms.

It'll still be perfectly fine for Desktop Development, but then so is Dark BASIC Professional; and that's been unsupported for over a decade and is free.

I'd say if you're looking for something that is going to be supported., Unity or GoDot are better options.
They are more feature rich, they have a larger community in terms of support and tutorials... and they're in constant active development supported by teams who care and believe in the products.
You're not going to get that with AppGameKit.

As much as I wish that wasn't true... that's just the reality at present.
While we can point out the Small Development Team as being the issue here., I'd point to DBC/DBP/AGK during their Peaks; when TGC (or more specifically Lee) cares about a project., it's well supported and updated... when he moves on, well a product is left in limbo until they eventually decided to officially sunset it.

If you just want something to mess about with, then sure AppGameKit is worth it... there really isn't anything else like it on the market.
Arguably that's the biggest shame here too., because it's that uniqueness of a BASIC like Language with a reasonable powerful System Feature API that makes it an excellent Rapid Application Development, Independant and/or Beginner Development Platform.
It's a major gap in the market that TGC essentially have a monopoly on, and are failing to capitalise on.

Raven,
Thank you for such a detailed post. It's clear that you are passionate about what happens to the products/community. What's going on today sounds like more of what I saw a decade ago.

I have been part of tiny shops before, so I understand the limitations, especially when trying to keep up with the giants of the industries with their heavily staffed departments and ever-changing whims. TGC also seemed to have their toes dipped in too many waters, back then. And I haven't followed their current pricing structure, but if they're still not charging royalties in addition to a one-time cost of a couple-hundred dollars/pounds, it seems like it would be difficult to stay afloat over time.

I'm no game-programming expert, but I can see where visual programming does have its place in some situations (if I'm understanding your terminology). In fact, THE reason I'm looking into AppGameKit again is to try to port some Adobe Director projects that have drag-and-drop-created animations. Regardless, I want to port to something that has a strong future because as we all learn eventually, labor/time is our most valuable resource, and I'm tired of (re)learning things that die in too short of a time (like Director). Thank your for your time and saving mine.

doesn't this mean you already own Classic? or, did the original AGK users have to purchase AGK2?

I don't know what version is required today nor remember what exactly I own. I guess I wasn't asking what to buy as much as "what to buy into". That is, should I even bother with this AppGameKit platform anymore? It sounds like "no", unless someone has compelling points to the contrary.

I used to be on AGk early as 2016 / 2017 made some great apps / tools. Had a break from it now have returned cause I see potential if TGC had more staff to work on it, I'm not sure they do, but they do work hard giving us a tool to create small but achievable mobile apps.

Classic - I never came off it, it was my life
Studio - although a bit bigger product based on classic, I'm waiting for funds to be able to buy it and start programming again.

All you have to ask yourself is what do you want to use this for. Big world games ? Then that may dwindle.
Smaller 2D or 3D apps then it's worth a shot

TGC will get there with more im sure if they worked on it, of it's a one man band then that will be time to get things implemented

But yes, this tool is unique and only one on the market and worth a shot

I suppose get the demo versions and start coding and see for yourself

My thoughts anyway

I've been using AppGameKit (mainly Classic) for nearly 3 years and it is without doubt the best programming tool that I have used, it's quick to pick up and developing for mobile devices is really straight forward. If all you want to do is make games/apps for yourself, family and friends then I would highly recommend it. If however you want to develop games/apps for Google play store or the Apple store then I'm not so sure as there is some doubt over the future of AppGameKit in particular the Classic version and TGC have done nothing to clear up this doubt. The recent addition of the VS Code extension to Studio has being a big plus. I have been using this for a few weeks and it's great, it just lacks the ability to export to android.

For a hobby it is great, just as DBPro was - BUT, as has been pointed out already, the lack of updates to match that of the stores in a reasonable time period are going to be more than significant for any product on said stores. They have also lost an employee recently, which for such a small team is not good.

Decide now what it is that you need/want it for and base your decision on that...it isn't a question of the price but of the amount of work you will be doing with it and why. For some time and what appears to be the foreseeable future, TGC do not like to communicate with anyone about anything unless it is about GameGuruMax. However that may change in time, no reason to believe it will, just hope.

We where given some reassurance by forum goer "Scene Commander" regarding TGC commitment to the AppGameKit, but no actual assurance of anything specific. Right now at this moment in time, in terms of what you want it for based on your original post, the recommendation from me would sadly be no.

It is also cheap so might be worth having as a tool if nothing else, there will be sales on Steam from time to time, some better than others, I got mine dirt cheap. Ended up getting both Classic and Studio as well as the Shader Pack. I mostly use Studio. For use as a hobby I am happy enough.

haven't seen AGK/Studio @ huge discount in awhile (maybe once or twice since THIS?).

meanwhile, i consider myself very much in the Hobbyist category but, as i've heard since my DBPro days, "yes, DBPro/AGK can do it - can you?" still rings clearly.

there are a few devs here who continue to publish and update their mobile titles so it absolutely can be done. since i dont have experience with Google Play/The AppStore, i couldn't tell you more than TGC doesn't generally release an update to meet respective requirements before or by respective due dates. but, eventually.

case in point, Zappo had his android release of Dungeons & Dice ready in april but had to wait for july's studio update (i'd call it a patch vs update) to publish the iOS export (which they did promptly).

that July update brought in an issue re: .aab export. so, 1 step forward, 1 back, tho we are able to revert to previous versions (to export bundles, then to july's for iOS) so no net loss. it's a (relatively small?) hassle, i'm sure, but not impossible to overcome.

i'd say that experience is indicitive of the current state of things.

otherwise, Studio IS the future* of AppGameKit (Classic has to go - whether i like it or not ) so, for me anyway, expansion of the VS Code extension is eagerly anticipated while some have embraced Studio's own IDE and are making it work for them.

and, yes. i thoroughly believe AppGameKit has a future. when all emotion is removed and fairness to TGC (and myself) is applied, it will be viable in the foreseeable future. losing paul/the lead dev is a serious bump in the road and since AppGameKit won't pay TGC's bills on its own, it'll be a slow road but there's no end to the asphalt that i can see (as far as my aging eyes will allow).

finally, i have no skin in the game. i can do what *i* want with almost any version from the past few years but, as you're deciding whether or not to risk your own, i hope this helps.

Thank you, guys, for all of your responses; they were informative and helpful. It's funny how I faintly recognize some of your names from the forums, back when.

I'm probably going to pass on using AppGameKit, which is sad. As a middle-aged man, I've come to realize the value of time, an irreplaceable resource, and I don't want to gamble with my time. Further, the future project(s) is not "just for fun". So, I'll have to give platforms like Godot, Unity and Unreal Engine a closer look (or others?). As difficult as they might be to learn for just 2D stuff, they'll likely be around and well-supported in the future. And they seem to be free if you have profits under $100k, etc.

Now I've got to sell that AppGameKit book!

Well, i work on AppGameKit since the first publishing.
Now i have my personal AppGameKit versions for ios and Android,
And i'm happy like the first game i done in 2009.

@xGEKKOx That's great! Do you think AppGameKit will be supported 10 years from now?

It's been going since 12 July 2011

https://forum.thegamecreators.com/thread/186863#msg2226376

With This been 13 year, so, I really hope so. It's only supported with funds and programmers.

I'm a hobbyist programmer and wouldn't mind helping out voluntarily to help the product progress but my openGL and vulkan knowledge is limited. That's how much I would like then to succeed - to potentially help out if they are on low resources

Yes, you should buy AGK.

I remember trying out AppGameKit in it's first iteration, about 10 years ago. Back then, AppGameKit had very limited function, didn't even have 3D support, it's all 2D sprites, and the trial installer were bundled up with, was it DBPro? But AppGameKit has come a LONG way compared to that early version, it's almost like a different product altogether. It's great now, very lightweight, straightforward to learn and use, compared to some other game-makers. In Tier-2, I imagine you can customize it even further to circumvent any limitations you see in Tier 1.

Q: 'Are their releases stable or are they crashy?'
A: I haven't seen any crashes. except from some isolated case, such as 3D physic objects > 1000 per scene, and when multi-dimensional arrays got exceedingly too big in size.

Q: ' How is the flow of cross-platform compilation and publishing?'
A: I'd been putting games on Google Play Store before with ads, not that many, but the flow isn't too bad at all. Just need some IDs from Google, and the ads works.
The biggest 'annoyance' is not exactly within AppGameKit itself, it's the Google/mobile policies, that they feel the need to force us to update our game in idk 6 monthly, or they'll be taken off the store.
This requires TGC to update the APK exporter for us. On this matter, TGC doesn't usually update it first thing in the morning, they usually comes pretty late. So many users feel jittery when those Google deadlines approach. I think this particular problem can be remedied if TGC just make a simple short comment stickied, maybe something like "The December deadline? Oh yeah we will do it next week". Something to assure the user that their apps will not hit the deadline and be taken off the store. The update can even come late; it's just the user needs to be affirmed that all is well. This needs to be done only for this particular issue, because it means the apps livelihoodness itself in the Playstore. Not a problem at all for apps created on PC though, since PC are made with backward compatibility in mind, while mobiles only care about 'the newest' and abandon backward compatibility.
So for mobiles, the longevity of the apps life (in PlayStore at least), to put it simply, are completely at the mercy of TGC update (for Tier 1 at least). For PC games though, I think they'll have a very long life since compatibility is not a big issue, even without further ongoing TGC support.

Regarding TGC involvement with the community: On first look, people might be inclined to think that TGC involvement with the community is wanting. But looking at it objectively now, I can say TGC actually, listen to everything, even though they didn't say much. For example, TGC used to make a poll on opinions and requested feature. I requested VR back then. And now we have VR. Also back during it's 'growing' phase, people here gave TGC a lot of feedback on the 'newer' feature, such as the need to increase 3D objects bone limit count, the need to unlock vertex positioning in 3D models, etc. And they all had been realized. I even saw the devs addressed the users problem directly in this forum too. Of course nowdays the 'fixing' has been a little bit slowed down, due to the changes in company focus, but I'd say most of the 'core' feature had been realized quite nicely. The 3rd party addons developer also are pretty responsive and involved with their product, they had been updating their products multiple times after we give them feedbacks. However there are still some bugs that are still not fixed, such as 3D physic object count limitation, and the issue of .png images losing transparencies when being fiddled with on mobiles, etc.

So TLDR, get it, it's pretty good now. Not 100% perfect though, like everything else in this world.

Also about Unity and the others, you might want to get a closer look on their recent debacles about their monetization method changes. They might not stay as 'free' forever as a lot of people used to believe.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For TGC:
I'm not a big fish in the pond, but if I have to give an advice for TGC, is that they need to remember who their users are.
Shifting the focus to GameGuru, is really a bad idea in my opinion. With AppGameKit, the focus is clear; AppGameKit is for people who want quick prototyping in BASIC for multiple platform, and can produce full game if they wishes. And there's a room for these product in the market; it just need a little brand-building.
But for GameGuru, who will actually use it, actually? GameGuru is basically advertised for people who don't want to program (?), but 'feels like' they want to make a game (?). This might sounds harsh, but people who don't have the patience to sit down with an easy product like AppGameKit, won't sit long enough to make a game, even with a product like GameGuru. They will try out GameGuru because they thought they can make the next Call of Duty Modern Warfare graphics game, only to realize they cannot, and it'll take efforts to produce something like that, and they will stop using GameGuru right there and then. On paper, GameGuru might sounds practical, but in reality, the people who are 'attracted' to products like that, are not exactly people who have the patience to make a game in the first place (usually). This is akin to advertising a gaming PC to people who don't play games. They might try or even buy the gaming PC in their moment of weakness, but as sure as egg is egg, they won't be playing much games if at all on that gaming PC.

There are some really good insights and thoughts on this thread. Some among them that particularly stood out to me are:

-Raven

-kackle123

-Virtual Nomad

-Scribble

-Zaxxan

-kackle123

-Aidan

-Scribble

After reading through the comments in this forum thread up to this point, I can really empathize with some of the thoughts and feelings communicated. If I may, I'd like to share a few brief points as well from my own perspective:

* AppGameKit is a great product and as others have pointed out, AppGameKit fills a market niche that perhaps no other current development product does (or at least, fills that niche in AGK's own way like no other product does)
* In a hobbyist role, I could not be more pleased with AppGameKit generally. Of course no product is perfect, but that includes all the other options available. Whether it's STOS, Dark BASIC, Pure BASIC, Garry Kitchen's Game Maker or any other suitable language / system, for hobbyist purposes if it is a product I enjoy using, then so be it even if its publisher and target platforms cease all support.
* In a potential business venture role, I do have some concerns about choosing AppGameKit for developing games. While I love AppGameKit itself as a product / tool, the issue is will AppGameKit support the target platforms of the future that I intend to publish for? This includes particularly Android, iOS, and the big 3 consoles: MS XBox, Sony Playstation, Nintendo. I suspect AppGameKit will not do so. If AppGameKit will not do so, then it may be unwise for me to invest my limited time learning AppGameKit, only to have those acquired skills become obsolete or irrelevant in 5 or less years from now. But, the same could be said for any other game engine as well because those engines sometimes drastically change over time. For example, Unreal 4 versus Unreal 5: the interface changes, some features are dropped, other new features get introduced. Or Phaser 3: portions of the SDK become depreciated and replaced with new ones, requiring an ongoing learning process. It seems that any currently supported or ongoing game engine / SDK is subject to change, and will almost certainly change, thus requiring additional learning and sometimes abandoning former skills.
* The licensing terms for software are very important, and sometimes overlooked. AppGameKit and AppGameKit Studio have reasonable and fair licensing terms. Several other game engines have what I believe to be questionable and unreasonable licensing terms, at least in part / sections. Furthermore, AppGameKit does not arbitrarily require its logo to be displayed in an end product, unlike some other engines do, which detracts from the game's publisher's trademark or logo, and overall professional appearance.
* Unlike some others, AppGameKit is offered with a perpetual license, not an ongoing subscription model. Personally, I strongly dislike SaaS (software as a service) and subscription models. AGK's perpetual license is a great "feature" of the product.
* The target platforms which AppGameKit supports include Linux, Windows and HTML5. These target platforms are relatively static platforms, offering long-term backward compatibility, unlike both Google Play / Android and apparently Apple App Store / iOS. For that reason (long-term backward compatibility) an investment of precious time and effort learning AppGameKit is probably a secure investment, unless it is specifically Android or iOS that you are targeting.

At this time and in the foreseeable future, I am going to continue to use AppGameKit even if TGC drops all support for AGK. Even if for no other purpose, I can use AppGameKit to produce HTML5, Linux and Windows games for a long time. That alone makes learning and using AppGameKit a worthwhile pursuit, from a business perspective. If at a future date I need to additionally learn Unreal Engine, SDL, Gamemaker, Godot or whatever else, then my efforts in learning AppGameKit will not have been wasted. It's like learning to speak another language. If after learning how to speak Spanish, I then feel a valid reason to also learn Chinese, my time and effort in learning Spanish is not wasted or futile. Personally, I feel that AppGameKit has benefits to offer which are well worth the investment of time and effort required to learn AGK.

Exactly!!

With AppGameKit you will spend most of your coding time at first with frameworks, building either in game tools or separate tools to help you make your game, or just raw code everything on an per game basis so each codebase is unique, personally I like to make modular systems that can be used across projects but this has the short term gotcha of eating into development time as you amass a library of compatible systems but speeds up development in the long term, want to do a jam, no problem I'll use that 2D platform, Match 3, TDS or Tower Defence framework .... the most code you will wright is when you first start ...

So IMO the product is worth buying into, both financially and mentally, I support TGC's efforts and I understand the restrictions they have but they keep the lights on, a store updates its terms and [eventually] AppGameKit gets an update and for what AppGameKit can do like compile to 3xDeskktop, 2x Mobile and HTML5 from a single [quite extensive] codebase I think its well worth the price, the community is pure gold, I believe the discord sees a lot of action [I don't do Discord] and sure the forum is slow but many long term users that know the product like their own face and give many relevant and in depth answers [Looking at you Raven! ]

The naysayers give AppGameKit a hard time and its part of the reason I have chimed out of this forum in the last couple of years, the "AGK is dyeing" and "TGC suck" type-of-thread is what spawns these type of threads, people that know AppGameKit is good but have lost faith in TCG for all the negative threads but updates come, I don't expect major expansion to the code base I only expect it to be kept relevant, and it is! ...

Me personally I would buy AppGameKit studio because it works for me and is a quality language . I think it will be around in the foreseeable future and really is a very good piece of kit.
It would be awesome to see it go mainstream and who knows maybe one day it will . As it is right now it is very nice . Bought it at the beginning of 2018 ( classic ) and studio a couple of years later.
Played with a few other languages in this time span and AppGameKit is better for me. I think I'll keep using it until it no longer works or is replaced by something better.
Have a nice day.

Just thought I would add that I've tried a few programming languages and this one works well from start to finish . If you find anything better please let me know .

What is meant by a framework ?
I looked it up .

AGK is still a great product and I will continue using it but probably won't publish anything to Google Play store. If you can get Studio at a reduced price it is well worth it although I would probably give Classic a miss now as it's future is very uncertain. At a guess I would say only the Studio Windows and Mac versions will be supported in the future.

TGC thinks no one wants to code anymore. I beg to differ. With their GameGuru and GameGuru Max they are aimed at first person shooter games and you can't do a D&D role playing game or a sports game with it to my knowledge. Not everyone likes first person shooters. I do like them, but my favorite genres are D&D roll playing and real-time strategy.

They need to keep supporting at least AppGameKit Studio

I don't see AppGameKit studio going away any time soon as it is too good of a product to bin. Maybe they should offer classic users the chance to upgrade to Studio for a very fair price.

I think there are a lot of classic users that already have studio but prefer to use classic instead, myself included!

Unfortunately AppGameKit classic is going to die (I am one who likes the IDE as it's uncluttered) I now use AppGameKit studio for my game.

As the OP knows C why not cobble together a engine using that at least it will be future proofed and always there

Tbh, if AppGameKit Classic isn't going to be updated anymore, it's not as if AppGameKit Studio is going to be updated with much new features either, so they are kind of in the same boat of 'deadness' AKA not much updates... Since TGC is going to shift focus to GameGuru. If the current state of AppGameKit works for your case, then I say buy it. They are pretty good even in their current state. But since you want mobiles (which needs deadline updates regularly), so yeah... hard to say. Hope TGC can reassure/confirm the future state of mobile updates.

Thanks, all, for your helpful comments. As I am looking to do non-hobbyist, mobile device app development, I am going to look elsewhere.