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Geek Culture / Doom3 Pre-Review

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 12:15
http://www.computergaming.com/article2/0,4364,1426271,00.asp

nothing needs to be said, cept read it!
enough to get even the hardest of HL2 hardcore fans be salivating at the lips.

and i'm sure some of the modellers on here will have some pride to see what modelling software id have moved to since Paul left...


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Eric T
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 12:32 Edited at: 9th Jan 2004 12:33
I must admit, those weapons look "Kick m*****f***** ass". Lets not also add that my favorite weapon is still among the arsenal, the chainsaw. As of right now I think Doom 3 looks a little better then Half Life 2, but not by much.

We also might take into effect though that the name "Doom" will bring back lots of fans who were native of the original games. at the same time though, we must think of how uch ID Software might of changed the series. Does it have the same "Kill them all till your Eyelids are FUBAR" type of gameplay, or is it more subtle, and puzzle filled, like Half Life?

Right now, I think Doom 3 will beat out any competition, that includes Half Life 2, and Halo 2, just for the reason that it is a "Doom" game, and is suprisingly more graphiclly impressive then Half Life 2.

The next few months are setting to be a FPS war, Half Life 2, Doom 3, Halo 2, and i even heard somthing about Duke Nukem: Forever finally being Released in the next few months also (after how many delays, 5000?).

All I know is that I know is that my ass is set in my PC chair, just waiting to play these new FPS's.

If i ain't here, i'm probably playing DOA2 Hardcore on the PS2
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las6
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 12:54
Ha, DOOM 3 actually seems to be very uninteresting game. Other than the ridiculously high-poly characters and scenery, I don't the think the game has much to offer. And that comes to graphics, I found the Half-Life 2 and Stalker - Oblivion Lost gfx to be much more impressive. Mainly because those two got some style, not just dark corridors. But I guess it's a matter of personal preference.

They did say they were going to make D3 slow-paced and all that, so I might give it a try. Maybe it can actually be 'scary' and not just be full of stupid looking gore monsters and hellish things.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 13:01
HUH? Drooling??? It doesn't sound very exciting from this preview. Just some badly written text. It might be a good game, but this preview doesn't say anything to make me drool.

Pincho.

las6
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 14:52
also the preview itself is Quite repetetive. Just count the times when he explains how the Doom 3 is slow-paced.

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Arkheii
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 15:11
Quote: "ridiculously high-poly characters and scenery"


No, you're wrong. Compare the poly-count with HL2 and the new UT games. You'll be surprised.

Regarding the review, CGW has the worst writers ever, so I stopped buying their mag a long time ago. Think of doom3 as a special tech-demo, because it's gonna set the stage for quake4 (the faster paced game).

Quote: "stupid looking gore monsters and hellish things"


I do not prefer to call them "hellish things," just freaked up scientists and things. HL and all the other doom games had freak monsters, so why can't doom3?

Dave J
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 15:17
I heard CGW had a porn star on the front cover of one issue as well.


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Arkheii
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 15:25
Quote: "I heard CGW had a porn star on the front cover of one issue as well."


They are so goddam cheesy... If you actually read letters from their readers, most of them are actually rants of people saying they're discontinuing their subscription because CGW just keeps pimping and doesn't really talk about the games.

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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 16:00
I think it's look pretty exciting... Should be good...


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Chris K
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 21:29
I recon, critical disappointment but massive commercial success (duh).

I never really saw what was so great about Doom. Doom 2 was nothing special either.

But, hey, just my opinion.

AlecM
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 21:49
Im sure doom3 will be a good game. But I think HL2 will be better. Much better story, AI, physics. The graphics aren't as nice but I really don't like the style seen in Doom 3. It looks like poor quality CG from 1998 to me. I dont know, can't really pass judgment until there both out.

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Ian T
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 22:04 Edited at: 9th Jan 2004 22:05
Two things.

One, previews are always honey-coated, and frankly along with having very poor writing and editing, this one dosen't show much of anything new and ladels the game with pointless, baseless praise.

Two, he mentions a lot that the game is far from done. They've been working on this thing for years now, it's been many many months since the brunt of the engine was supposed to be almost complete, but they haven't even finished half the game's weapons yet (And it's a very monotonous selection with almost no texturing variety, typical id). All this game has is a small selection of monsters, weapons, close corridors and 'boo' moments-- absolutely nothing special or new-- but they're still taking forever to design it.

Everything here could be found in the leaked beta. Apparently they're just wasting their (and our) time.

WTF?

You know what this smells like to me?

Daikatana.

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Ian T
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 22:07
Btw, I have to give Carmack credit for his footnote at the end. At least someone at id can admit they make great engines, but can't design a game worth crap ...

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Ian T
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 22:20
I didn't mention HL2 once if you'd actually read what I said

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Ian T
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Posted: 9th Jan 2004 22:29
Yeah, but I had the beefiest post discounting Raven's advertizing blurb

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 01:51
anyone what's the bet that if someone else posted this there wouldn't be comments like there is being?

if you people who are being skeptical about this actually did some research you would realise many things, about the crap that is comming out from you people right now.


the best comment was the high poly one, these models have 1/3 the polygons that the HL2 models have... and they look ALOT higher quality


no weapon is over 2,000 polygons

a run down of the features outlined::
- Fully Interactable Scenary
- Proportional Shots (meaning the better your aim the more damage)
- Realistic Damage (meaning no getting hit with a rocket and you screen shakes a little)
- every individual and monster on base is UNIQUE, not just from each other but are regenderated each time you play. Making you feel like your playing the game, not pressing replay.
- Deliberate Tension Building Gamepace (which another NiN electrical tension building sound track)
- Improved Ai from previous id games, with semi-personalities
- Player Health Conditions, if you get shot and it peirces the skin you need to goto the med bay to have the shot removed; else you could end up getting slowed down, loosing strength or even dieing from it.
- Fully Destroyable Terrain, unlike other games scripted breakage areas like Red Faction2 and GeoMod... Doom3 can truely claim GeoModding as it is capable of being burnt, blown, shot, eaten and structually given to create damaged areas.
- Remembering Events, the world is also capable of remembering events. Which means rather than moving from an area and then going back to the original area with everything returned, you screw up you better figure something else out because even blood stains on the floor remain.

and these are just the features that are outlined in that document


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Rob K
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 04:07
Quote: "if you people who are being skeptical about this actually did some research you would realise many things, about the crap that is comming out from you people right now."


Please respect other people's opinions Raven. Art is a subjective subject after all, there is no right or wrong answer.

Anyhow, the screenshots sure look nice - ID's last major single-player outing lacked a bit in the gameplay department. As long as they have sorted things out there we're in for a great time


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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 04:17
..this article was posted in a magazine about a year ago. Way to go.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 05:24
Rob an opinion would be sitting there saying what they feel based on the facts, not obviously not reading the article; generalising what they have read and then spouting total crap.

like Quoth there who obviously didn't notice that it was written on the 1st Jan 2004 ... and this is the FIRST article that id have allowed so how it could've been in a magazine already would be a miricle.


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Preston C
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 05:31
Quote: "- Player Health Conditions, if you get shot and it peirces the skin you need to goto the med bay to have the shot removed; else you could end up getting slowed down, loosing strength or even dieing from it.
"


I would just love to comment on the whole bullet pierecing the skin thing when shot, but I dont think I will.

Quote: "Fully Destroyable Terrain, unlike other games scripted breakage areas like Red Faction2 and GeoMod... Doom3 can truely claim GeoModding as it is capable of being burnt, blown, shot, eaten and structually given to create damaged areas.
"


Who else wants to have a go at trying that in Dark Basic after reading that?

As for everything else, I think the game looks nice so far. I might get it when released (but I cant keep my hopes up).

Cheers,
Preston


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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 05:34
Uh raven, that's probably the upload date. It's on the CGW website, and it was written in an edition of CGW that had Doom 3 on the cover. I remember it very vividly, I can find the issue and screenshot if so needed.

Puffy
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 05:44
I wants it O_O...


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Rob K
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 05:54
Quote: "Rob an opinion would be sitting there saying what they feel based on the facts, not obviously not reading the article; generalising what they have read and then spouting total crap."


Raven, just because someone disagrees with you does not mean that they are "spouting total crap". Anyhow, changing the subject...

Does anyone here remember Q3Test which ID released previously. It would be nice to see something similar for Doom3 multiplayer.


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Ian T
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 21:04
Actually I think Doom 3's lower polygons counts make a noticable difference. I'll note that Doom 3 requires a new graphics card, and new graphics cards don't flinch at high polys, but the processers will have trouble with its heavy AI and other calculations. It's a useless gesture. Look at the screenshots if you want to see what I mean-- the lighting makes them look rather ugly, actually. I'm not just making this up on the spot, I've really noticed it before... the polygon counts don't do the textures justice.

I'm sure there will be a mod for this in the months following the game's release, however.

Rob-> It'd be nice, aye, but I have a feeling ID wants to retain the mystique that still surrounds the topic of Doom III...

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 10th Jan 2004 23:23
Oh dear, the mere mention of doom3 brings out overly excited gamers, with their geek speak hand books at the ready. From what I've seen of D3 in video / screen shot form, it looks impressive to me. As for how it's done, frankly who cares.

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Ian T
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 00:08
Game developers for one

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Dave J
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 01:55 Edited at: 11th Jan 2004 01:56
Quote: "As for how it's done, frankly who cares."


Considering this is a programming forum, I think a lot of people will care. We'd like to know how to do similar things ourselves.

From a gamers perspective, if they're using a lot of shaders then many of us probably won't even be able to play it. If they're using Pixel Shaders 1.1 then it'll be just like Deus Ex 2. You need a Pentium 1.5 ghz and a GeForce4+ Or ATI Radeon 9600+ (Excluding all GeForce 4 MX's or the 5600FX). This eliminates all but the most hardcore gamers from playing as it requires the best graphics cards on the market. By the looks of things Doom3 and Half-Life 2 will be going the same way. Most of us probably won't even get a chance to play it.


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JeKu
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 02:12
Quote: "We'd like to know how to do similar things ourselves."


Well here's a tip to start: Drop DBP if you think that it will enable you to do a game like Doom 3

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Ian T
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 02:35
Better advice, get a professional team that has years of time on their hands, and get the money to pay them... use DBP if you want to, that is the real problem


'This eliminates all but the most hardcore gamers from playing as it requires the best graphics cards on the market'

nVidia has the FX and Radeon the XT line now, they are the best on the market, and hardcore gamers have them already, what you might call 'serious' gamers have 9000-line Radeons and GF4+ cards. Of course it's not only a matter of dedication, but money

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 02:54
@Mouse:

Quote: "Game developers for one "


erm, so where are these said developers then ?


Quote: "Better advice, get a professional team that has years of time on their hands, and get the money to pay them... use DBP if you want to, that is the real problem"


Knowledge is the problem, and the lack of it absolutely astounding.


@Exact:

Quote: "Considering this is a programming forum, I think a lot of people will care. We'd like to know how to do similar things ourselves."


You must be looking at a different forum, but do you see anybody talking about the technicalities of how to achieve this ?. As already stated, It's beyond the scope of dbpro's tool set..

My point was/is, that unfortunately people confuse 'how it's done' with 'will it be good'. So we get tech speaking idiots, preaching it's awesome because of feature A,B,C... Now are they selling the GAME, or the engine ?.

It'll be good if people enjoy it.

Kevin Picone
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Neophyte
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 04:24
@Exeat

"If they're using Pixel Shaders 1.1 then it'll be just like Deus Ex 2. You need a Pentium 1.5 ghz and a GeForce4+ Or ATI Radeon 9600+"

Actually, PS 1.1 shaders should run on a Geforce 3 ti and a Radeon 8500.

"(Excluding all GeForce 4 MX's or the 5600FX). "

5600FX can use PS 1.1.

@uwdesign

"erm, so where are these said developers then ?"

Right here.
Eric T
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 04:37
Quote: "'This eliminates all but the most hardcore gamers from playing as it requires the best graphics cards on the market'"


Not Exactly, because both Doom 3 and Half-Life 2 have expected XBOX Releases, thus gamers will be able to enjoy the games, only with a XBOX controller.

Quote: "My point was/is, that unfortunately people confuse 'how it's done' with 'will it be good'. So we get tech speaking idiots, preaching it's awesome because of feature A,B,C... Now are they selling the GAME, or the engine ?.
"


Thats the sad part, alot of people look behind the Story and gameplay, and look at the Physics engine, or the lighting effects.

If i ain't here, i'm probably playing DOA2 Hardcore on the PS2
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Dave J
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 04:40
I was stating the Deus Ex 2 sys requirements, the 5600FX had many, many problems with Deus Ex Invisible war. Likewise Anything below a GeForce 4 or Radeon 9600 ran very, very slow. Of course, I can't say the results will be the same for Doom3 but there's a high chance they will if they're using similar methods.

Quote: "Well here's a tip to start: Drop DBP if you think that it will enable you to do a game like Doom 3 "


I never said: "do it ourselves with DBP" - plus, I never meant actually creating Doom 3, but I know I wonder how things are done in some games and it would be nice to know how. Same goes for movies, you can wonder how they do a certain special effect but it doesn't mean you're actually going to create the movie yourself.


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Neophyte
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 05:03
@Exeat

"I was stating the Deus Ex 2 sys requirements, the 5600FX had many, many problems with Deus Ex Invisible war. "

Okay.

"Likewise Anything below a GeForce 4 or Radeon 9600 ran very, very slow."

Not surprising. Probably, do to either high-poly counts(relatively speaking) or multiple passes with the shaders. I haven't played that game though so I don't know for sure.

" Of course, I can't say the results will be the same for Doom3 but there's a high chance they will if they're using similar methods"

True.

But, to veer back on to topic, from what I've heard DOOM III might actually be a decent game. They finally got a decent writer who could create a story that made sense, and they've definately departed from the tired, old "If it moves shoot it till it doesn't" style into something that actually requires thought.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 05:28
Doom3 Min Spec :-

500mhz Pentium/Athlon or 800mhz Celeron/Duron
64mb Ram
Radeon 7500 or GeForce Based Card
Mouse + Keyboard

Shaders :-
Same as above except
Radeon 8500 or GeForce3 and above (Radeon 9-Series Recommended)

those were what Carmack said in an interveiw with GameSpy a lil while back. and i don't have a clue at all if this has been in CGW because i ONLY read PCG. But GamesRadar doesn't have a Doom3 preview yet.


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Puffy
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 09:45
For those kinds of graphics... dammmn


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JeKu
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 11:25
Yeah I remember reading that HL2 will run on slower machines too--- like around 700MHz. This would be, of course, bare minimum and probably unbearable to play.

Hey maybe Doom 3 will let you let shrink down the game screen size so it will run faster, like Wolfenstein and the original Doom! Do you guys remember that?? I remember playing Doom on my friend's 386 and he shrunk it down to like 80 x 60 or something ridiculous like that hehehehe

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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 12:19
As a side note - does anyone know how the zooming out of your base station is done on the Challenge levels (with the blurry effect) ?


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Rob K
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 12:45
@uwdesign,

I saw an interview with the lead designer of Doom 3 on GameSpot a while back, he said that nobody understands John Carmack or how the engine works, "but doesn't it look good."


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 12:49
hehee, well you know Quake and Quake2 had that too... i think it was a pretty cool feature.
i did that one Wolf3D and Doom on my 386; for some reason my dad's 286 though was capable of running Wolf3D in fullscreen with no problems. Never did find out the specs of that machine

and no not for those kind of graphics Puffy, for the full graphics you'll need a
- 1ghz Pentium4/AthlonXP 1.4ghz Celeron/Duron
- GeForceFX 5600 Ultra or Radeon 9600/9800 PRO/XT
- 256mb DDR Ram

1024x768x32bpp resolution ofcourse
it looks great to me ^_^ ... the best part actually being is that it is more than possible to create the graphical level of detail in DBP, however don't expect to create a similar BSP system without knowing extensive C++ and DirectX.
I've been tinkering with a Shader capable BSP system for a while but nothing i'm happy with yet.


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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 18:01 Edited at: 11th Jan 2004 18:12
I refuse to take seriously what previews say since its is usually hyped up. This is something that a games company can't do a lot about. If we don't have high expectations then we can't be disappointed so I'm not going to take too seriously what is being said. Its easy to slag off a games company for delaying there new game but this might be a good thing since it's not being rushed and they want to get the game as perfect as possible and not bow to marketing and sales pressures.

Quote: "This eliminates all but the most hardcore gamers from playing as it requires the best graphics cards on the market. By the looks of things Doom3 and Half-Life 2 will be going the same way. Most of us probably won't even get a chance to play it."


This is a positive thing - if developers tried to componsate for museum PCs then new technologies and what is possible would be flushed down the toilet. I want a new games to challenge my new graphics and audio cards so that smoke comes out of them! And show what is possible with the latest technologies. I don't want a games company compromise for older cards - otherwise you are sitting on the shelf gathering prehistoric dust playing crap. Upgrade dudes!

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Rob K
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 21:49 Edited at: 11th Jan 2004 21:50
Indeed, for example, in a preview of Daikatana, they said that the "game will be good, but not great." In the review they said, "this game is awful, but not diabolical".

Incidentally, I played the demo of the game - it was the worst game I've played in a very, very long time.


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Ian T
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Posted: 11th Jan 2004 21:50
Aye, as I said earlier, previews always look at everything in a positive light. Another example is a Gamespy preview of Ultima X, where it looked to me as if they were throwing away most of the good aspects of the game; the preview skimmed over an obviously awful alpha-state combat system, one of the more important aspects of the game, and instead jumped back to comment on the graphics again...

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Chris K
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Posted: 12th Jan 2004 00:04
Quote: "this game is awful, but not diabolical"


Well that's a lie, it is.

It is the gaming equivilent of poisoned crap - and not the type that stars in an Agatha Christie novel - the type that everyone just points to and says "Why? What have you got against humanity and who taught you how to type?!?"

Rob K
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Posted: 12th Jan 2004 00:08
I know. I remember in the demo, the first level was just blasting cursed tiny frogs that were nigh-on impossible to hit, and just wouldn't die.

The most irritating part was the Norway demo level, where you kept killing these werewolves and they just kept respawning! - As if that wasn't bad enough, these guys just wouldn't leave you along. You could go right to the other side of the map, through various arches, over bridges etc, and they kept following you, 5 at a time.


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PiratSS
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Posted: 12th Jan 2004 00:08
Raven, they use normal maps for their models.

Actually all of em are under 2k polygons, but they look like 250000 polygons.

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Ian T
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Posted: 12th Jan 2004 01:37
Look at the screenshots... the chunky way the light shines on them makes it pretty obvious they're low poly

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I am the chainsaw paladin.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Jan 2004 06:06
actually Diakatana on the N64 wasn't too bad
on the PC the system demands were ridiculous though, the control system was like Quake and the graphics were like Quake2 ...
which if it'd be released when originally promised would've been good, but it was released after Quake3; which quite frankly raised the bar several notches.

Pirat i'm not sure why your telling me that, as i've mentioned they use Normal Maps; however i didn't mention it directly. You can't simply wave a magic wand an expect a more detailed normalising pixel map to just suddently appear. You have to create a high polygon version of your model, you basically are using the low-poly model's UV map to get the pixel light indices and store them in the mesh from the high poly version.

some of Doom3's models are under 1,000 some are as high as 3,500 polys. In general they hover around 3,000 polygons.

and Mouse what the hell are you talking about? that is the biggest load of BS i've heard in my life, as the light projected onto the shown models is Per-Pixel-Lighting ... you can tell some models are low polygon by their edges; but don't try and BS and claim that is the way the light is spred over them, because Per-Pixel-Lighting at 32bit per pixel colour floats produces lighting depth equivilant to photometric.

Not even thouroughbred artists could tell the difference Mouse... and there is no way in hell you could either.


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Dave J
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Posted: 12th Jan 2004 06:59
Heh, well Daikatana was originally developed for the Quake engine but during the '97 E3, iD unveiled Quake2 while ION showed Daikatana with the original Quake engine. Of course, it looked like crap compared to the next iteration of the engine so they decided to license Quake 2 and port all their old code to the new one, unfortunately that probably took longer then it would to start afresh. And then you have the fact that their team quit on 3 different occasions. No wonder the game took forever and wasn't any good.


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Ian T
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Posted: 12th Jan 2004 17:21
Yeah, and that's exactly what's happening with DNF except they're not even releasing it when it's really, really late, they're waiting even longer

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I am the chainsaw paladin.

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