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Geek Culture / Our games are being sold without our knowledge

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Toby Quan
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 18:01
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I released a game I created in DarkBasic called Town Hall Toaster in September of 2003. I posted it in the DarkBasic Showcase.

Now, I did a search for it on Yahoo, and I see it all over the internet. I don't mind if my freeware game is given freely to people.

However, I also found my game, and other DarkBasic games for sale on a foreign website. It looks like a certain publisher takes 20-30 games every month and sells them. This month, I see my Town Hall Toaster game, and also the winner of the DarkBasic Retro competition (Girls From the Block) for sale:

http://www.excal.cz/excalsite/hv22.html

My game was on Issue #22 of his CD. Here's a link to his main website, and you can see all of the monthly CD's. Maybe your games are on them as well...

http://www.excal.cz
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newbi 2 basic
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 18:04
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wtf!

it kind of looks like a magazine,
but i dunno
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stann65
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 18:05
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did you register this game as yours.

If not i don't know if there is anything you can do unless you can like un-incrypt it to prove that it is your exact game and not just a clone.

http://stann.tk
(its a work in progress) please sign the guestbook.
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Kentaree
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 18:09
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You can do something about it, even without the code. If its exactly like your game, and it came out after your showcase entry, you've got the copyright on it.

I would be unstoppable if I could just get started...
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Dr OcCuLt
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 18:14 Edited at: 9th Feb 2004 18:20
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did you put your name in the info bit of the .EXE becos that will tell any one how the copyright is. if he is sell your game and you be able to sue him for a lot of money.

list of DB retro games i can see
3D Bubble Bobble
Retro Fighter
Dark Wolf 3D

[edit]Star Wraith 3 Shadows of Orion demo[/edit]

but thay may be more

--Dr 0--

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stann65
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 18:20
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can you do anyhting if he is giving them away for free?

http://stann.tk
(its a work in progress) please sign the guestbook.
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Kentaree
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 18:24
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Hmm, if he's giving them away for free, all you can do is demand that he removes the games from his site. Also, you might be able to sue if he's not giving any due credit to the authors.

I would be unstoppable if I could just get started...
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 18:29
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If they are selling the games:
-document everything this site is doing - save all of the pages to your local drive.
-have someone you know actually buy the game from the site
-examine everything and make sure it is your game that you wrote
-If you havent obfuscated the exe, decompile it and examine the source to prove it is your code
-when and if all above is complete and you know those bastards are selling your property, compile all of your evidence and SUE THEM for everything you can!

-notify all other victims if you can

-RUST-
"What the... Mooooooooooo!"
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stann65
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 18:30
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i know if that was my game he was doing it with i would be pretty
pi**ed off about it.

also if he was selling them for money instead of taking him to court could you demand all the money he has made from it.

http://stann.tk
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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 18:34
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Quote: "Cena: 99 KÄ?."


That looks like a price to me . Although it doesnt look much, but still its not free.

Do you bite your thumb at me sir?
The Basics of DBPro Tutorial, on my site now!
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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 18:37
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SKYCARS IS ON ISSUE #21!!!

Do you bite your thumb at me sir?
The Basics of DBPro Tutorial, on my site now!
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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 18:44
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I can also see a few free online games that I have played.

Do you bite your thumb at me sir?
The Basics of DBPro Tutorial, on my site now!
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Elleomea
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 18:47
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Might be that he's selling a magazine and giving a CD with games on attached to it away 'free' (in the marketing sense of the word, rather than gratis). But unless you've specified in any licensing terms provided with the game how it may be redistributable (eg. as Freeware), any redistribution without your consent is illegal, as it breaches copyright.

How much ham could a hamster stir, if a hamster could stir ham?
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 19:20
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It looks like a free disc on a magazine. Not worth the hassle. You might as well feel proud that your games are on a magazine. It only really affects you if you were going to sell your game, otherwise it is not worth worrying about.

Pincho.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 19:24
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Pincho, if any of my games where being distributed like that, I'd be pissed of rather than anything else. I'd want to atleast be credited and notified of its use. This way is just underhand and sneaky, and I can imagine TobyQuan's frustration.

I would be unstoppable if I could just get started...
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lagmaster
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 19:25
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converts to about £2

it just looks like a magazine that promotes games found on the internet

lagmasteruk - http://www.lagmaster.net is alive! http://www.dbforums.co.uk/ - another db forum!

Dark Snippet Pro V9.2 is out!!
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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 19:52
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The thing is, if he is selling a decent amount of these magazines, and quite a lot of these games are nicked without permission, that's a lot of money he's gonna be making from other peoples work.

Do you bite your thumb at me sir?
The Basics of DBPro Tutorial, on my site now!
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Toby Quan
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 19:53
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Here's the deal. I put my name in the game, and my website information. However, it is just plain text which shows on the title screen. A hacker could change it easily I'm sure. In the future, I will encrypt my name so that it cannot easily be edited.

I'm sure this guy who is selling these games on CD hasn't changed the names or anything. I am sure he is selling them "AS IS", so my name is still intact.

On one hand, I'm honored that my game is going out farther and farther, to places that I could not push it to by myself.

On the other hand, I am concerned not only for myself, but for all of us that posted our games on the DarkBasic showcase, becuase without our knowledge or concent, our work is being distributed.

I'm not really mad, and I'm not going to follow this up - I guess I'm just concerned, that's all.

I also just wanted to let everyone else know, so that they can search his CD's to find their own games.
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 19:56
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look into Obfuscation tools to help protect your code and media. Makes it a nightmare for someone to decompile/hack your stuff.

google search "Obfuscation"

-RUST-
"What the... Mooooooooooo!"
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Jeku
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 20:02
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Is this even illegal? I remember when I was younger, back during the BBS days (before the Internet was anything), they used to make shareware CDs and sell them from $5-20--- in fact I can STILL buy them at places like London Drugs. Anyways, they're just collections of shareware proggies on CD, and the price is just to cover the cost of the company that compiled them. The profit is not that much.

If you didn't explicitly put a license.txt file in there and stated that the game can't be distributed without your permission, I doubt there's anything you can do. The cost of suing some guy in a foreign country is sadly not worth it.

Jeku (just playing devil's advocate)

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the_winch
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 20:15
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With shareware it's a different matter, the point of realeasing shareware is to get as many people as possible to play it in the hope they will like it and buy the full version.

Also they in the Czech Republic what they is doing could be pefectly legal there.

Is putting it on a cd and selling it really much worse than an isp charging for access to it?

Our civilization faces three great dangers. The first is destruction by a nuclear war, the second is being crippled with overpopulation and the third is the Age of Leisure.
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Jeku
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 20:19
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@the_winch - I agree--- I can't speak for TobyQuan or anybody else, but I would be honoured to have one of my games featured on magazine CDs. As long as I put proper contact info in there and nothing has been changed (hacked), then all the better.

[href][/href]
http://www.automatongames.com/
Ancient Chinese proverb: Man who runs behind car gets exhausted.
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UnderLord
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Posted: 9th Feb 2004 21:24
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yeah guess you guys wouldnt like to get money for the games he is selling heh but i guess if your game is freeware then there is nothing you can do about it as long as the game hasnt changed anything freeware someone could really sell to anyone because it's freeware thus its just like for fitting your own birth name.

But if he sells these game individually then theres a problem for him. But if they come in packs of like 50 games or something then there is really no problem because you are paying for his hard work to find and supply these games as well as the cost of putting them on cd.

The search continues.
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Dr OcCuLt
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Posted: 10th Feb 2004 00:22
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Quote: "But if he sells these game individually then theres a problem for him. But if they come in packs of like 50 games or something then there is really no problem because you are paying for his hard work to find and supply these games as well as the cost of putting them on cd."


that do`s not matter if it a game or 50 games there still selling it

Quote: "If you didn't explicitly put a license.txt file in there and stated that the game can't be distributed without your permission"


that do`s not matter to you get a automatic copyright on it. that meens if any one sell it or give it a way the a) have to ask you if thay can do it b) have to give you full credit at all times

this guy has not do`n any of things i`l just listed. there for his branking copyright laws, and thay do have them in the Czech Republic.

--Dr 0--

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 10th Feb 2004 00:34
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sue him for international copywrite laws and bomb the czech republic

Take a look to the sky just before you die

---For Whom The Bell Tolls, Metallica
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xtom
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Posted: 10th Feb 2004 01:41
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One of my games is there too. He should really have asked permision from the authors before doing something like that. There's a nice collection of games on those cds too, it wouldn't surprise me if he was making a nice few bob on them. Especially as it seems there's 22 issues. I'm not bothered about my game on it but if other people are getting ripped off for there work it's not good.
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Great Knight
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Posted: 10th Feb 2004 02:00
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Should email them and say "hey its cool that you put my games in your cds, but please next time ask " or "Please don't use my games in your cd with out permission"

excal@mbox.vol.cz

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Van B
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Posted: 10th Feb 2004 10:58
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Pah, my games aren't good enough for him .


Van-B


The nature of Monkey was irrepressible!.
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DivW
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Posted: 10th Feb 2004 13:06
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Copyright © Martin Ludvík, 2004.

Anyone noticed that bit?

I havn't done anything for him to nick, but i'm still concerned by this. Can anyone get us a translation? I don't think babel fish has this language, whatever it is...

-Dave

Your soul...it tastes like chicken

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Dreq934
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Posted: 10th Feb 2004 13:57
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You guys should try to round up everyone who's involved in this.. Its easier to fight back when you are grouped. You guys could make money from your games after all thanks to this dumbs***!

"I LIKE MARSHMELLOWS!" - Homestar Runner
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Dave J
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Posted: 10th Feb 2004 13:59
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I'm pretty sure it's just a free 'demo' CD that comes with a magazine, not really a crime against nature, it's just he should've asked first.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Dreq934
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Posted: 10th Feb 2004 14:34
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Ok, Exeat, then look at it this way:
If he is distributing these guy's games on a cd for his magazine, it is obviouly a ploy to sell more magazines. If someone buys the magazine because of the games on the CD, then, you can safely say that he is making money off of the games.

"I LIKE MARSHMELLOWS!" - Homestar Runner
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KNau
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Posted: 10th Feb 2004 16:29 Edited at: 10th Feb 2004 16:31
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That's the reason why shareware sites are starting to block IP addresses from countries like the Russia, Vietnam, China, etc. is because they can't afford to lose the bandwidth to people like this who basically take the demo but never buy anything. In those regions there are more pirates than legitimate customers.

You're going to have to let it go because you will never see a dime and he will never be prosecuted. He isn't making enough money for it to be worth your while anyways. Consider how some of you are feeling right now before firing up Kazaa next time

In a way I suppose I should thank him, having browsed the site I just found about 20 new games I had never heard of to try
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AnDrEy
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Posted: 10th Feb 2004 18:35
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Looky what I found E-mailed files or messages don't soar like birds; they hop like frogs, touching down on a number of lily pads along the way. Malicious hacking or network troubles can cause snags, slowing down or even stopping your packets. Traceroute programs tell you where your data's gone--and if you understand street addresses better than you understand Internet protocol addresses, VisualRoute might be a good choice.

VisualRoute 8.0 traces your data's path and shows it to you not only in baffling domain names or unlabeled IP addresses (basically just long strings of numbers punctuated with dots), but also on a map of the world. If your packet has pulled to a screeching halt at the site of a natural disaster, then you might want to find another way to deliver your data--such as from an e-mail account with another ISP, or even by sending a hard copy. If you suspect that your computer's being hacked, VisualRoute can help you track the hacker back to their IP address and domain name, giving you the evidence you need to turn the evildoer in to their ISP and probably get the account shut down.

The developer, Visualware, offers a 15-day trial version. If you decide to keep the program, you pay a one-time $50 license fee. One year of upgrades costs an extra $20.

Just look for VisualRoute 8.0 and Visualware I hope this is what many people are looking for
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AnDrEy
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Posted: 10th Feb 2004 18:38
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This will tell you where your data went in ips, web, world maps and more, also it is legal confirmation of the fact that the data sold/distributed on another site belongs to you
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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Feb 2004 18:38
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BTW, what's the difference between getting them for free on a cover CD, or getting them for free from the TGC servers, or getting them for free from your own websites?

To me it's illogical to get upset unless this guy hacked your games and removed copyright strings, etc. I think I'll send him a copy of my new game when it's released <--- a joke

- Jeku

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 11th Feb 2004 00:46
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Quote: "In a way I suppose I should thank him, having browsed the site I just found about 20 new games I had never heard of to try "


Yeah there are some pretty good games on there. Ham Nam is quite good, it's like Pacman. Time to try some more..

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dark coder
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Posted: 11th Feb 2004 00:58
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i dont think theres anything immorale about puting those freeware games on a cd, and charging a little price but not asking for permission now thats just overstepping the mark in my opinion,
so he basically makes his money from taking freeware games burning them to cs and making about a £1 profit from each one sold and we are left in the dark about it,

someone who speaks good french should talk to him about this.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 11th Feb 2004 01:02
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someone who speaks good french?....

Always have, never will =)
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 11th Feb 2004 01:05
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i was just thinkiong of you Pet Rat when he said that cuz i remember yuou were from france
go kick his ass

Take a look to the sky just before you die

---For Whom The Bell Tolls, Metallica
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Benjamin
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Posted: 11th Feb 2004 01:06
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that doesnt look like french

Always have, never will =)
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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 11th Feb 2004 01:07
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go speak...czech...or English...or maybe just good old Muslim

Take a look to the sky just before you die

---For Whom The Bell Tolls, Metallica
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Benjamin
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Posted: 11th Feb 2004 01:11
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Well, I'm not from here but ive been living here for 2 years and therefor can speak quite a bit of french

Always have, never will =)
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Dave J
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Posted: 11th Feb 2004 08:02
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Quote: "Ok, Exeat, then look at it this way:
If he is distributing these guy's games on a cd for his magazine, it is obviouly a ploy to sell more magazines. If someone buys the magazine because of the games on the CD, then, you can safely say that he is making money off of the games."


I doubt he's making anything, what did someone say it converted to? $2? That's barely enough to cover the costs of the materials for the magazine and CD. My gaming mag has free games on it all the time (old games like GTA, C&C, C&C Red Alert, Masters of Orion, Age of Empires, etc) but these aren't what drive people to buy the magazine, it's just an added bonus. Of course, there are some people that will buy it for the games but most probably wouldn't.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Jeku
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Posted: 11th Feb 2004 08:15
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I would sure buy a magazine with those games you've mentioned, Exeat


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 11th Feb 2004 12:10
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There are 50 games on there, so if you sue him you can claim 1/50 of his profits. His profits from £2 are probably £1.50, so you can claim £1.50/50 * sales figure. So you might get around £30 if he sells 1000 magazines.

Pincho.

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Van B
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Posted: 11th Feb 2004 12:22
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Hehe, maybe we should get in contact with the dude and ask him to compile Retro compo and Alienware compo CD's for the same price - I'd happily pay a fiver for all that lot on a CD.


Van-B


The nature of Monkey was irrepressible!.
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DivW
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Posted: 11th Feb 2004 13:53
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I still think we should get a translation if the page, then decide if it's worth taking action or letting it go. The lease we could do is ask about advertising, because it's unlikely that this guy is posting your web addresses into his magasine. But we can't know that will we actually get the page in english.

-Dave

Your soul...it tastes like chicken

Official Website Coming Soon
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Dr OcCuLt
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Posted: 11th Feb 2004 16:20 Edited at: 11th Feb 2004 16:22
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this is a good idea for any one else but this guy. his is pirteing work so we can`t trust him bit we can try the same thing over here. (UK/US/Australia) but do it above bornd so we ask if we can us the games not just put them on the CD and hope for the best.

i think it will cost this to do


by haveing a fund for new programers it wood do away with the idea of one man make a profit of us. the money can be spent on helping the whole commtey buying media or by just trying to push there games.

thank just my idea i`d do it in the uk but my spelling not that good so i`d need help on the magazines bit.

--Dr 0--

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Scraggle
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Posted: 12th Feb 2004 08:14 Edited at: 12th Feb 2004 08:23
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I used an online translator. This is what it came up:

Quote: "Ovládací program a hry fungují pod Windows 95 / 98 / Me / XP.
Hardwarové nároky her jsou obvykle shodné s nároky samotných Windows.
Hralná dema a graficky nároÄ?nÄ›jší hry vÄ›tÅ¡inou vyžadují 3D grafickou kartu.
"


Becomes:

Quote: "Operating system plus sports operating underneath Windows Me XP. Hardware strain her are in general identity with strain samotných Windows. Some demonstrations plus graficky warmly sports mostly necessitates graphics card."


This:
Quote: "edná se o celé hry od renomovaných distributorů, jako napÅ™. Sierra, Empire. Oproti cenám v obchodech jsou mnohonásobnÄ› levnÄ›jší. Jak je to možné? NaÅ¡e vydavatelství nakupuje hry ve velkém množství a získává je tak za dobré ceny. CD lisuje v ÄŒeské republice a vydává ho v edici Nejlepší hry. Tím se snižují náklady na drahý obal a hry může posílat poÅ¡tou bez rizika poniÄ?ení krabice. Ale hlavnÄ›: naÅ¡e hry mají sice podstatnÄ› nižší cenu, ale původní kvalitu!"


becomes:

Quote: "edná to within celé sports since renomovaných distributor , like for example. Sierra , Empirical. Oproti cenám within shop are manifoldly fair. As forth as them what vantage? Our publishing house agglomerates sports in large number plus solicitation them now within while ceny. CD lisuje within ÄŒeské republic plus redaction him within series publication Supreme sports. Herewith to vilify expenses within rich wrapping plus sports může send by post without jeopardies poniÄ?ení boxes of. However mainly : our sports mají else substantially subaltern cenu , however aboriginal quality!"



From what I can tell, this bit 'Herewith to vilify expenses within rich wrapping' suggests that the money is just for P&P. Of course I may be wrong!

If there is other stuff you want translating you can find the site I used here

Good luck

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