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Geek Culture / Looking for input. Text based MMORPG in construction. NEED PLAYER INPUT

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 27th Feb 2004 20:36
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Ok, me and my friend zNyTrAx are currently producing a text based MMORPG game. In a few months i hope to be able to obtain a dedicated server and start hosting the game for a few (or many!) players. With a bit of luck the game will be free (although it might have to stop if bandwidth runs out!!) and available to anybody to play. But i need input on what features to put into this game. I want to keep to some traditions in the game while keeping the game original in its own right. This is not a team request. Any ideas guys?

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Pricey
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Posted: 27th Feb 2004 20:44
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will it be like legend of the green dragon? i think it should be like that but bigger


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Mnemonix
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Posted: 27th Feb 2004 21:22
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The thought has crossed my mind. Its tricky to think of things.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 27th Feb 2004 22:40
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Ooooh.... you wanna do a MUD?

Nice. Always loved them. Just make sure to include a pub, plus the ability for gods to modify the game (locations, puzzles etc) through the front end interface, and you should be sorted.

Cheers

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 27th Feb 2004 23:38
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Dazzag, great ideas much appreciated. If you get any more ideas then shout them out in irc . There will be two different clients, an admin client and a standard client (for normal players).
Also i have been thinking about dedicated servers, i predict that i will be able to host between 20 and 50 players, so long as the bandwidth doesnt run out for about £60 each month. If the bandwidth runs out then i just turn the server off til the new month .

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Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 00:55
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Dunno about two different front ends. Would just make it clever enough to handle different logons. Then can make someone a "God" if you decided. Although obviously you would still be the highest being, and could control *everything*.

For more ideas just search for some MUDS on google. They are still running, I just haven't used them in years. IF (text adventures - interactive fiction) stuff is all over the place, and has some good advice for parsing algorithims here and there (there was a couple of years ago). If it's still running then try the Discworld MUD. Used to be great.

And 20-50 players sounds a bit low. At the end of the day it's only a MUD (ie. no graphics), and it's not as if you have to constantly send dozens of messages a second (like a graphical game) to update the server on your location. Surely a higher number is possible?

Cheers

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Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 00:57
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Oh wow, it's still going...

http://discworld.atuin.net/lpc/

Cheers

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Ian T
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 01:06
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'specially if you limit player actions to, say, one every two seconds, even on really slow connections, a plethora of data could be exchanged in the 'pause time' to fully update the game.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 01:18
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Deffo. Esp. compared to something like an online FPS. We are talking about much lower bandwidth usage than even standard web browsing I would have thought.

Cheers

PS. I am now back on Discworld, but cannot remember my login (years ago now). Still, starting to get addicted again... must stop....

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Benjamin
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 01:30
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Heh mnemonix, this'll be good, as long as it will be able to handle more than 3 users witout crashing

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Represent
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 01:38
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Wow! Discworld is awesome! Hey mnemonix, I hope your comes out even better.

Some ideas:
o Have lots of character types (ex: assassin, warrior, elf, wizard)
o Have some sub-types (ex: dark elf, half-orc, wizard of life/death)
o Make it so people can form there own guilds and stuff
o thats all I can think of right now....

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Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 01:41
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Only problem with Discworld is that there are lots and lots of people playing at once. So you get lots of people running around. Can get a bit distracting. It's been going over a decade so not so suprising I guess.

Cheers

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Elleomea
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 02:08
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Mmm, the Discworld MUD was always one of my favourites . Cabbage! Cabbage! Cabbage!

Are you writing this in DarkBasic? Becuase I wouldn't have thought it was ideal for this sort of task, especially not if you're using the built in commands for communication (My natural aversion to DirectPlay aside, it's definitely overkill for a MUD).

How much ham could a hamster stir, if a hamster could stir ham?
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Ian T
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 02:13
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We'd have a good alternitive if you'd release that online communication pack of yours, Elleo... come on, bring it out of hamster testing already

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 12:38
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Lol Hamster testing.

Thanks for the comments guys. I have been looking at the bandwidth, a lot of people seem to think i could take 100 connections which is remarkable to say the least if i can get 100 playing my game (which i doubt). But i would love that all the same. Dazzag, we are way ahead of you on the different login side of things, there is one problem that is getting me now, the game world is obviously to us programmers nothing more than a series of neatly arranged variables. If somebody uses a world changer on the client then the changed part has to be sent to all the users, this means unnessecary bandwidth that i would like to keep for playing. Any suggestions, bright or otherwise?.

I keep meaning to get around to try other muds out. Here is an idea i had, Every so often we release a quest or something that the players can try to accomplish (alone or in teams) and when they do they get to keep bounty, i know this has been done before but i also have an idea for a special type of item that is recieved by the first player to complete each quest, a sort of bonus. Give me info!!!

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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 12:49
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what kind of RPG will it be?

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 13:02
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It will be a great RPG. You have a world which you can explore (which will constantly be expanded) with items, weapons, armor, artifacts to find and use. There will be quests, folklore mini games, puzzles and prizes. It will be set in the era of fantasy (as i like to call it) which is comparable to commonfolk in dungeons and dragons and lord of the rings. To start off with i imagine the world to be quite small since i dont want everybody going out and getting lost now do i :p. I was thinking of doing some kind of guilding system and giving guilds a place to call their own, with space for excess items to be kept or instead of that i plan to have houses for each player which they can store items and the like in. I just hope the game is stable enough to handle the many users.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 13:18
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Quote: "If somebody uses a world changer on the client then the changed part has to be sent to all the users, this means unnessecary bandwidth that i would like to keep for playing. Any suggestions, bright or otherwise?."

That sort of suggests you will upload the whole game world to the client's PC at some point. ie. when they first install the game, or when they login every time. Don't see why you want to do that. Surely you keep *everything* on the server (also safer from cheats) and then update the client with the current locations information when they get there. You will obviously have to check with the server once a second or so anyway just to obtain information of any new people who wandered into your current location. This of course then allows updates to locations/ objects to work on the fly. Any *major* (ie. world changing) updates to the system then might require the server to issue an automatic shutdown that will shut people out on their next poll of the server.

Interestingly, if I remember rightly, there is an open source VB MUD called WheelMUD I believe. Might be worth looking at.

Personally, I would go with the idea of allowing it to run over several servers. Then have the code to allow people to wander from one server to another. Not only will it spread the load, but new users may offer to host a new server for you (as long as they get admin privs of course, but not quite your god level), and handle that area for you. Each server, for example, could be a city (like Discworld) or a country. Totally cool.

Of course the ultimate is for enough people to take over, then quietly take out your original server (that you spend hours and hours each day maintaining, creating new puzzles, helping newbies etc). Let the other admins (lets call them demi-gods ) handle the whole thing, and you settle down to some nice wandering (as the ultimate supreme being of course), with a little debugging when things go t*ts up now and again. Cool.

Always wanted to do my own MUD, just is an awful amount of time and neverending effort, even with an already written system (plenty around, both freeware and shareware). Would be nice with your own system though.

Cheers

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Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 13:23
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Of course to save bandwidth you could upload everything on installation/ login, then only send changes to the location/ objects/ whatever when you get to the location. eg. You store the date and time that the location was last updated with the location. You then send that to the server when you poll it to request information about the location. It then returns with a list of all players and objects currently in the location. The server also compares the date and time you sent it to the date and time it has for the location. If the server has a newer date and time then it also sends you the updated location description with the new date and time. This also goes for descriptions of people, objects etc.

Cheers

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Elleomea
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 13:41 Edited at: 28th Feb 2004 13:43
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Funnily enough, one of the reasons I haven't been working on my multiplayer library is because I've been working on Caera, a semi-graphical MUD (it has room pictures), it's written in C++ using the wxWidgets (used to be called wxWindows) library, so it's nice and cross platform .

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 14:08
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Yea, i guess i could do some of this stuff. Input muchly appreciated. I may use demi gods as the admin. I will obviously do rigourous testing with different methods to try and conserve bandwidth. What i need to figure out is the amount of bandwidth that is going to be used per player per hour on average.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 15:08
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Well, I was just looking at one of the wheel of time MUDs, and their stats point to almost 200 players online at once as their max in the last month. It also points to the fact that one bloke pays for the connection and it runs on his PC. Doesn't state the spec of the PC, or the connection speed, but only running on one PC is pretty encouraging.

Why not get a demo going and be nice with us lot to try and test it out for you (in bulk). Or write some scripts for load testing and bung it on a few of our machines. Get, say, about 20 of us running the load testing scripts at the same time, and you can get a good idea.

If you are totally serious then I would have thought a single (perhaps pretty powerful) PC would be fine, and get an NTL business link. You can get a double link, so you can browse nicely on your link (say a 1Mbit), and have a completely separate link for the MUD. Also you can then charge to use it if you want, as it is a business (NTL get a bit annoyed otherwise). The links can go all the way up to about 36Mbits I believe. Oh yes. So about 72 times more bandwidth than your standard ADSL connection. Don't know costs though. But I'm betting that's not cheap Still, if you aim seriously high, then no reason to have, say, 10 "areas" (cities?), each on a single PC, all connected to a serious cable line. Major cost I know. But think of the power.... mmmm.....

Cheers

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 17:01
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Well, i had considered hosting it on my home pc, I have a not to shabby machine but with dial up only and no ADSL possible for a while(or cable). I then considered hosting on my friends comp, he has a 1 megabit line, but the downtime would be horrendous. Choosing a dedicated server will allow me to keep a static ip, and most likely 100% uptime . Anyway this isnt what i want to know. I neeed to know what people think i should put in the game, what appeals to people who play these games. I am getting shapes forming in my mind of how the game is going to play. So if you want to play, here is your chance to make your idea count.

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AnDrEy
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 17:07 Edited at: 28th Feb 2004 17:08
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Wow that sounds good
[href]games.swirve.com/utopia[/href]
Thats a very good online text rpg (kingdom building). you can sign up for free to just check it out- recommended to everyone here (lots of good ideas and gameplay)

When I was little I knew I'd blow up and sell a mill or grow up to be a tilla go nuts and be a killa
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Mnemonix
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 17:18
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I wasnt planning on having kingdom building in this RPG. Thats probably a different style altogether. Keep em coming

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Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 17:33
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Have the ability to "grow" skills. Eg. If you kill a bear then your bear killing skill goes up (as does, say, your combat skills a bit). You then skin the bear and your bear skinning skills go up. You then sell the skin at the market, and get some money. Allowing you to continue honing your skills until you can do it easily for max profit. Even better if your skills give you titles. So get to, say, 150 points for bear skinning and you become a master bear skinner or somesuch. Or have an overall skill for making clothes from fur. Or sommit. Just rambling, but mainly have *lots* of skills. Esp. if you want a varied community, and not just your bog standard elf wizard type combo.

Cheers

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Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 17:35
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Oh, and I quite liked that Ultima idea (not sure if implemented yet) that was suggested a year or so back. Basically a new player can't just start in the game. They have to be born. So you wait until 2 characters (computer or real, no matter) have a kid. And then you become that kid. And you grow up, learn your skills etc. Obviously in much sped up time, so say 2 days tops for growing up etc.

Cheers

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Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 17:36 Edited at: 28th Feb 2004 17:37
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Oh, and as for specific commands, don't forget the FOLLOW command, that basically has you moving along with someone else when they move from the location. Is most useful for moving groups of people around. Or for spying on people. Was most useful.

Cheers

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 17:36
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Im WAY ahead of you, i will be having many skills so that all players dont have to specialise in fighting, i hope to score a half decent balanced economy in my game which includes fighters, and all kinds of industries. Fighters can become part of the industries to get weapons and armor etc.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 17:39
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Cool. I would def. make it easy to build a new area though. So can just plonk on someone else's server, and your main server can then link automatically to it and list it as another land or something.

Oh, and it's Armour in the UK (Armor is US spelling).

Cheers

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 28th Feb 2004 17:45
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To begin with i think there will be only one server. There will be ways to obviously expand the land, items etc with a special login and special password, which will give that admin player more control over the game, it will be used for moderators to moderate the game. Then there will be another one which will allow for that player to expand the game as he/she sees fit.

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 29th Feb 2004 12:46
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BUMP

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Benjamin
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Posted: 29th Feb 2004 16:53
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Ouch, dont do that

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 29th Feb 2004 17:50
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i thought you had made a comment .

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Benjamin
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Posted: 29th Feb 2004 19:28
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Uh, the program is good

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Mnemonix
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Posted: 29th Feb 2004 22:47
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What, the program that is yet to exist?

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Benjamin
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Posted: 1st Mar 2004 01:01
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Yeah man, its amazing

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