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Geek Culture / How Long Before DBP = C++

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soapyfish
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Posted: 29th Mar 2004 22:59
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Hey all,
I was thinking the other day about this update thats coming along and it got me wondering. I'm 14 so I've still got loads of time left(I think) to learn C++ if I wanted a career in progrmming. If of course theres any jobs in the games industry left in England in 10 years time(I'm sure you know what I mean.) Now if I walked into a job interview for say EA and showed them I was a red hot C++ coder they'd probably be impressed but if I showed them that I'd manage to program a whole MMORPG myself in DBP they wouldn't be to bothered. Or would they, with DBP getting more and more powerful and games looking better and better (take firewall for example.) Is it really that hard to imagine a time when games written in DarkBASIC could be sold to the public. Ones that with the proper team of coders, modellers, musicians etc could give todays big names a run for their money. So I come to the title of this post How Long Before DBP = C++. Thanks

code monkey 0gamemad0

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Rob K
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Posted: 29th Mar 2004 23:24 Edited at: 29th Mar 2004 23:25
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The C++ language is far superior to DBPro's BASIC (With the exception of dynamic arrays), but then that is why BASIC is called BASIC - its easy for everyone to pick up. However, if you use IanM's integration library to basically write the game in C++, but using DBPro's 3D engine, then yes.

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IanM
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 00:05
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Quote: "With the exception of dynamic arrays"


Not at all

I managed to replicate the DBPro array system in standard C++ (not at a binary level, but the basic system used). With another few hours work on it I could add the stack/queue/list functionality.

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UnderLord
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 01:25
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It'll neve be like C++ if you read the DBP manual and learn whtta Dark and Basic mean then you'll know why it'll never be like C++ weeeeeeeeee

The search continues.

Current project - A space game
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Neophyte
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 01:44
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I think he means how much longer until DBPro will be at the level of C++ in terms of power and/or industry recognition.
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MicroMan
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 03:24 Edited at: 30th Mar 2004 03:26
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Quote: "How Long Before DBP = C++."


To be honest, I hope it will never be like c++. I don't really see why it should be like c++.

That would mean removing the stuff that makes DBP good. That would mean making it more difficult for hobbyists to make games. The good thing about DBP, IMHO, is that it enables people that aren't whiz-kid coders to make games.

Games aren't after all just another coding task. Games are, inherently, media products. And since they are media products they ofter require other sensibilities than great coding skills. It's like: you could be an great English professor and suck at writing good books. And you could be a garage mechanic with six years of public education and make books that live forever. Both types use language, but the latter understands books while the former doesn't. And that makes all the difference.

I believe the same is true for making games.

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Jeku
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 20:46
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DBP will never = C++ simply because C++ can be used for a wider "type" of program. You can make a nice little 15k program with C++ that, say, parses dictionary files. Try doing that with DBP. Also, DBP is meant for DirectX games. C++ can be used for DirectX as well--- plus openGL, windows graphic display interface, anything for Linux, Mac, palm pilot, etc. etc. It's like comparing a toaster oven to a regular oven.

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Blue Shadow
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Posted: 30th Mar 2004 23:24
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I think what gamemad meant was how long before you get the same recognition for coding a game in DBP. For example, as gamemad said, if you proved you were good at C++ then companies would be interested in you. However, if you wrote a whole MMORPG in DBP they wouldn't realy be that bothered.

As long as DBP is used for PC I see no problem in writing and selling games In DBP aslong as they are of good quality. At the end of the day when someone comes to buy a game they don't look to see what language its written in because they probably don't care. They want to know how fun the game is and how well it plays. So IMHO i think if you wrote a great game in DBP then there should be no reason why you shouldnt get reognised for it.

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soapyfish
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2004 01:59 Edited at: 3rd Apr 2004 02:02
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Thats exactly what I meant, I'm not on about DBP BEING C++ so maybe the title was a little wrong. What I meant was as Michael Eddie and Neopyte pointed out, how long before a game a sucessful as say GTA:VC can be written in DBP. I know riight now C++ is far more powerful but if those updates keep on coming who knows what can be done with the right knowledge and patience.

p.s. I aint really got a clue about C++ though, I got a book from the library about VC++ and only got to the "cout"(print I think) command half waythrough. So if anyone out there really, really knows about C++ It would be great to here what you think(yeah I know some of the people that have posted know C++). Thanks in advance.

code monkey 0gamemad0

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Tomy
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2004 02:14
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Quote: "With the exception of dynamic arrays"


hm.. I'm not the best programmer but in C++ isn't a dynamic array just defined like that?

I don't see why this should be so difficult, it is actually easy...
Or maybe I'm totally wrong ?!?!
Please give me an answer Rob K.
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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2004 09:23 Edited at: 3rd Apr 2004 09:43
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Quote: "hm.. I'm not the best programmer but in C++ isn't a dynamic array just defined like that?
+ Code Snippet

int * array[x];"


No, I don't think any compiler will let you do that...

You need to use a function called "memory allocation" if you want the program to be able to adjust the amount of memory in an array.

Quote: " I know riight now C++ is far more powerful but if those updates keep on coming who knows what can be done with the right knowledge and patience. "


Personally I really do not care that C++ is faster then DBpro; I feel that if the updates include things that improve the power over the actual language (not just DX commands) DBpro will become better and better.

There is nothing wrong with including advanced items like OOP, easier reusability and generally like C++. The more control you have over the language and specific elements, the more powerful the language.

Just because a language is advanced dos not mean it’s automatically should be "Hard to learn"

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Jeku
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2004 21:43 Edited at: 3rd Apr 2004 21:44
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I hate to play devil's advocate, but this is my feeling. An employer *will* want to know what language your portfolio's games were made in (that is, if you want to work in the game industry). And they'll want you to have a degree.

That being said, I have no problem with making a game in DBP to see if it can be fun, then rewriting it in C++. I'm working on a C++ DirectX game right now and it takes a loonng time to create something as simple as a 3D cube with a texture. DBP is *awesome* for prototyping games

It would suck to spend months (years?) on a game in C++ just to have the sinking impression that it's not fun to play!

EDIT: The game industry reference was because of code monkey's original post. I am working at a large video game company between semesters and I know what they look for.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Apr 2004 07:46 Edited at: 4th Apr 2004 07:48
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Quote: "EDIT: The game industry reference was because of code monkey's original post. I am working at a large video game company between semesters and I know what they look for."


So they are looking for C++ all the time? Even If you know C++ along with advanced Data Structures and OOP and other advandced techniques, will they hold it against you if you program a complete game, by yourself in DBpro?

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 4th Apr 2004 08:06
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isn't it more and more of a designers world these days as opposed to a programmers world? what I mean is, isn't most of the core coding done and then put behind toolsets that other programmers and designers use to make the actual game but at a slightly removed position from the nitty gritty core c++ and asm code?


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CloseToPerfect
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Posted: 4th Apr 2004 08:34
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Quote: "will they hold it against you if you program a complete game, by yourself in DBpro"

no they wont hold it against you, and you might get some credit in being able to accomplish something big, but the truth is no major company is going to hire a programmer unless he/she is very profficent in C++. It is what all major software is and will be written in for a long long time, even DB is written in it.
Just as C++ isn't as effecient as ASM but it is easier and faster to work in, DB isn't as effecient as C++ but, it is easier and faster to get thing done in. The best games will always be written in C++ with a certin part written in ASM, because they need to squezze out every clock cycle they can to be one step ahead of the competition.
You might think that processors will get to a point where this is no longer true, but with every step in speed, game complexity doubled and that then requires everything to be tweaked again.
Soon we are going to see some amazing games worlds that are as complex as real our real life world, that have season, that have plants and trees that grow and change, that have wind forces that blow and spead things like fire, perfect light and shadow casting. Just when games get this perfected, we'll see a low cost virtual reallity set come onto the market. You know, the holodecks form ST-TNG could be a reality someday, (not in my life) but that would be the ultimate game wouldn't it.

RGT may be gone but the best DBP forum is still alive and kicking, check it out.
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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Apr 2004 11:33
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Quote: "truth is no major company is going to hire a programmer unless he/she is very profficent in C++. "


Of course, if a programmer is proficient in programming in C++, not nessarily able the program an entire game by thier lonesome; But enough C++ to understand what is going on underneath the hood (the game engine) then I think that the launguage of witch you make your games is rather secondary. Wouldn't the very fact that you can complete (a perhaps well designed) game be enough evidence?

Also, If you are not applying for a programming position but perhaps being a designer (or anything else non-programming related), it would not hurt to know the most of the ins and outs of C++.

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Jeku
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Posted: 5th Apr 2004 01:54
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Actually, I think it's still good to show them a complete game, even if it's done in DBP, because it shows that you can follow through and finish a project. Most people can't finish what they start, and an employer doesn't want to hire those kinds of people for obvious reasons.

Abomb is right in that even if you're a game designer, it doesn't hurt to know C++. Where I work, most (if not all) the designers were once programmers or artists, and have worked up through promotions. I think it's rare to jump straight out of university into a game designer's job!

There's SO much to C++ that it's impossible for anybody to memorize each and every DirectX call, for example. This is why programmers that are in the industry have manuals by their computers, and the internet at their disposal for reference! That being said, you should know how to quickly find and implement the things you are looking for, even if it's a new concept for you, because it shows you are able to learn new things quickly. This is obviously important for the games industry as things change ALL the time.

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 5th Apr 2004 16:27
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I don't really know if the speed is slow because DBPros engine is DLLs or what but can't you use the interface library by IanM to use DBPro in C++, and if the DLLs are to slow i know you can convert them to static lib files...which are kinda the same thing i think...so in conclusion we should try to program an MMORPG in ASM...wait what was this post about

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soapyfish
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Posted: 5th Apr 2004 16:49
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He he he, thanks for that, looks like I'm goning to have to sit down and read into C++ A LOT seeing as theres seems to be some people here that know C++ I was wondering if you could give me a little help. I got Visual C++ for dummies but it isn't really set out the way I intended. Does anyone mind telling me how or where they started learning C++. Sorry for going off track. Thanks in advance.
code monkey 0gamemad0

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 5th Apr 2004 22:26
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Visual C++ for dummies is an awful book (I have it). Buy "C++ weekend Crash Course" by Stephen R. Davis. It is by far the easiest and most in depth introduction to C++ I have bought.

Granted you wont be finishing it in a weekend like the title says, but it will get you quite far.

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Neophyte
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Posted: 5th Apr 2004 22:39
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@NightsIn2Dreams

"and if the DLLs are to slow i know you can convert them to static lib files..."

Out of curiousity, what tool can do this?
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Kentaree
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Posted: 5th Apr 2004 23:03
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What most people here seem to forget is that C++ is NOT the only language used in the programming world. Visual Basic is still used a lot purely because of the quick development time. Java is used for portability, and the same goes for .NET. Even languages like COBOL are still used.
It all depends what are of programming you want to go into. If you want to become a web developer it's going to be more important to know PHP, Perl and a database language than it is to know C++. If you want to go into games, C++ is the way to go, but I'm getting the impression that most people here think C++ is used for everything

Its not a bug, its a feature!
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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 6th Apr 2004 00:56
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Quote: "but I'm getting the impression that most people here think C++ is used for everything "


Techincally you can do almost anything with C++. Obviouslly it would be easier to use other launguages in certain situations. And while C++ can do almost everything, it does not nessisarily follow C++ does everthing well.

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Eddie Gordo
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Posted: 6th Apr 2004 04:45
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http://www.binary-soft.com/dll2lib/dll2lib.htm
^ That does it but i know there are other tools, maybe even free ones...

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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 6th Apr 2004 05:02
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Possibly if you make a very high quality DBP program, it will get you recognition, but a major game developing company is NEVER going to hire you based on DB experience. It's BASIC man, that's all it is. Wait till college, take actual programming courses, the two are not comparable. C and C++ are currently the industry programming standards, with variants and derived languages made for a better workflow. But DBP knowledge may teach you BASIC program flow, the big demented world of C is completely different.

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Neophyte
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Posted: 6th Apr 2004 09:08
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@NightsIn2Dreams

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out later when I have the time.
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Jeku
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Posted: 6th Apr 2004 12:52
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I wouldn't recommend any C or C++ book that's stuck to a certain software package, like "Learn Visual C++". The best one's are based on the C/C++ standards. Also, don't get any of tha Learn C++ in 21 Minutes garbage. My best reference is How To Program C++ by Dietel and Dietel. It's used in many universities as it's one of the better known "good" C++ guides.

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GameMaker Jason
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If you siad that you have made a few good games in DBPro how much would they value this as programming expaerience or would it be better to create a few very simple games in c++?

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 7th Apr 2004 01:14
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Quote: "Also, don't get any of tha Learn C++ in 21 Minutes garbage"


Some of those are actually quite good...they just don't take 21 days or hours or what ever to learn...

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Jeku
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Posted: 7th Apr 2004 01:18
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@GameMaker Jason - I really don't know what they'd say, I guess it all depends on their opinions when they hear the word "Basic". People who don't know what DBP is will automatically think of QBasic or something primitive like that, and they will probably not give it much credit that it deserves.

TheAbomb12 - All the ones I've seen are usually crappy, but then again I haven't seem them all My dad bought a bunch a few years ago when he was working on a gene parser but they were pretty much crap.

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M00NSHiNE
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At the end of the day, DBP is still very much in its infancy. With each update its functionality and stability increases, making it a more powerful package. Continuous development of third party .dll's such as NG's collision and RobK's Blue GUI give it greater flexibility and strengthen DBPro's power. in a short time it may be considered a worthy development package - at least from an amateur developers point of view.

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MikeS
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Posted: 7th Apr 2004 03:14
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DBP is very powerful, there only one major problem. At release it was very buggy, although it's highly functional now(thanks to 5 updates), it holds a bad reputation.

It just needs some time to develop and get a better showcase.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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M00NSHiNE
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Posted: 7th Apr 2004 03:18 Edited at: 7th Apr 2004 03:26
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Lets just hope that by the time its developed it isnt obsolete at the hands of new technology, eh?

[edit] I also find the fact that Lee Bamber has used DBPro to develop FPSC VERY encouraging. Not only will bugs in the way have been eradicated, but DBPro would have to be very very stable to produce such a monster. I cant wait to see what U6 fixes.

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MikeS
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Posted: 7th Apr 2004 03:58
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I'm also assuming once U6 is released, TGC will announce there upcoming competition.

This is probebly why U6 is taking so long. They want it ready for the competition, and want it stable enough so that bugs in DBP/U6 aren't what holds people back.

Just my thoughts though.



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soapyfish
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Posted: 8th Apr 2004 17:32
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Quote: "I also find the fact that Lee Bamber has used DBPro to develop FPSC VERY encouraging."


Your not the only one. This at least goes part way to proving that DBP CAN be used for commercial quality games, maybe not in the big wide world of GTA and Final Fantasy but at least in terms of Milkshape, Cart Shop and other such community related tools. Thaks for the books by the way, gonna have a look for them ASAP.

code monkey 0gamemad0

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