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Geek Culture / community observation

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indi
22
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Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 9th Apr 2004 17:32
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Ive been here a while ok.

My observation is this.

People dont look at the commands, instead they post on the forum regarding how to do something thats already listed as an example in the commands. I know the manual is sometimes slack in detail but the essence of improving your skills is to apply the commands together in many varied ways.

Does anyone else notice this? they connect to the internet, sign up to a forum, post a message and then wait for someone to reply which can also be misinformation, while all the time under the nose of that user are heaps of examples and command hints.


they ignore the code snippets and code examples etc..

isnt that weird hey.?


fall down seven times, stand up eight
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OSX Using Happy Dude
21
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Joined: 21st Aug 2003
Location: At home
Posted: 9th Apr 2004 18:27
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I know - it gets rather annoying when the proper research for solving particular problem is not carried out.
Unfortunately it tends to be those with no actual programming experience...


The place for all great plug-ins.
Keeping it Unreal since 2004
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CattleRustler
Retired Moderator
21
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Joined: 8th Aug 2003
Location: case modding at overclock.net
Posted: 9th Apr 2004 18:28
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I agree to some degree but you may consider the noobish of noobs that have no idea of the command they are looking for although the categories should give some hint. Overall most people don't try to help themselves too much before posting - but then again that's why these forums are here.


Home of the VB.NET Class Builder Utility - Demo and FULL versions now available!!
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zircher
21
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Joined: 27th Dec 2002
Location: Oklahoma
Posted: 9th Apr 2004 19:22
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Unfortunately, there is no easy solution.

Perhaps we can add all the sticky notes together to create a FAQ and make that mandatory reading (possibily in conjunction with a multiple choice quiz) as part of registering for the forum. That may sound elitist, but it sure would help to impress the culture of the forum on new comers.
--
TAZ

Game Beavers
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andrew11
21
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Joined: 23rd Feb 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 9th Apr 2004 19:36 Edited at: 9th Apr 2004 19:37
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There should be a giant button that says "Need Help with Commands?" and when you click on it it goes to an online version of the help files and says "Read the F*ckin Manual!". Somehow, I think people would miss that too. Oh well.

"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
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Fallout
22
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Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 9th Apr 2004 20:05 Edited at: 9th Apr 2004 20:07
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I always thought it'd be cool to have a vets forum, for people who have proven their mettle and completed a game, or basically produced something that represents solid work and commitment. Then you get granted access to that forum, and you know every post in there will be from someone who knows their arse from their elbow.

Not quite a solution to Indi's observation, but still something cool. A forum for people who have proven their worth.

EDIT: It might also be an insentive for people to stick with and complete projects.

Signature? No! Obsolete! These days it's all about chip and pin!
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the_winch
21
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Joined: 1st Feb 2003
Location: Oxford, UK
Posted: 9th Apr 2004 21:09
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Sometimes it is easier to make a post rather than scan through dozens of command descriptions written in lingo you don't really understand. A lot of db users are new to programming, it's a bit unrealistic to expect them to learn everything from a manual and experimentation when there is a forum that will help them.

you ain't the cops
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zircher
21
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Joined: 27th Dec 2002
Location: Oklahoma
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 00:12
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[retorical] Does that mean we should stop helping them until they can pull themseleves up by their bootstraps? [/retorical]

I consider it insanely unrealistic/foolish/arrogant for newbies to expect complete strangers to help them learn how to program from scratch.

I still try to help, but sometimes they drive me up a wall with their absolute lack of even the basics.
--
TAZ

Game Beavers
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Fallout
22
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Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 00:16
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I second that. I dont really visit the darkbasic forum anymore - just team requests and general chat, because when someone asks how to make their guy move forward for their FPS using the arrow keys, you see how utterly impossible it will be for them to get anywhere with their project, and it makes it seem like a waste of time helping them out.

I have to admit though, I do blame the db team for not proving the right resources on the CD. The product seems to be marketted as an easy game making tool, when clearly it's still incredibly complicated for anyone who's new to programming. That's not a shun of the db team, its just I believe the responsibility lies with them to try and tackle the issue, not us.

Signature? No! Obsolete! These days it's all about chip and pin!
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Killswitch
22
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Joined: 2nd Oct 2002
Location: School damnit!! Let me go!! PLEASE!!!
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 00:37
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I must admit that I did just post a ton of questions on the forum, but that did give me a base to start from. When I first got DB it was a bit over welhming, I had all these commands and could see some examples of their potential. Once I found out how to use a few of the commands it gave me somewhere to start, and I could explore from there!

~I see one problem with your reasoning: The fact is that is a chicken~
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MikeS
Retired Moderator
21
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Joined: 2nd Dec 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 00:48
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I hate to single people out, but this is just disgusting.
http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=29366&b=10

The sad thing is, I've already helped this guy out with menu's once before, yet he's still giving up.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
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Lord Ozzum
21
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Joined: 29th Oct 2003
Location: Beyond the Realms of Death
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 01:23
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I tried coding, but failing, [sarcasm] though fun and gloriful [/sarcasm], really didn't get me interested in it. I did, however, try the demo out and asked how to do the text thing (center it and change the font).

You're just jealous cuz the voices don't talk to you!!!
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Wik
21
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Joined: 21st May 2003
Location: CT, United States
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 01:27
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Hey guess what
(see below)


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Lord Ozzum
21
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Joined: 29th Oct 2003
Location: Beyond the Realms of Death
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 01:29
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Hey guess what
(see below)

You're just jealous cuz the voices don't talk to you!!!
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indi
22
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Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 01:55
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and then we have nonsense spammers like MRx whos days are numbered if he persists.


fall down seven times, stand up eight
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Jeku
Moderator
21
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Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 01:59
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I don't understand the logic of buying a programming language and not committing yourself to learn it by yourself! I find that 80% of the fun of programming is typing in a command, running to see what it did, exiting, altering the command a bit, getting an error, altering command... repeat 1000x.

I'm on a DirectX forum as well and I'll be damned if I don't try everything in every combination before asking a question :p

Mr. X -- Just a question: If you don't like programming DBP--- why are you here?

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Fallout
22
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Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 02:05
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Jeku, you are right. But db is somewhat marketted as something much simpler than a programming language. It's not like they disguise the fact its a programming language, but the whole "make 3d games with ease" type line is very misleading to anyone who hasn't programmed before.

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Jeku
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Joined: 4th Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 02:17
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True, maybe that line is a little misleading, but many people have programmed using DB with ease, so it is true for them.

I think there's a trade-off--- either you have click-n-make (3DGM) and no power, or you have power (DBP) that requires scripting. It's hard to discern if it's easy or not. I mean, it a *lot* easier than C++, but harder than... uh can't think of anything, but you know what I mean

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OSX Using Happy Dude
21
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Joined: 21st Aug 2003
Location: At home
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 03:59
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What most new people dont realise is that programming can be very time consuming and sometimes annoying and irritating, and you if cant do the time, then dont do the crime (metaphorically speaking that is).
Most youngsters today cant sit through a 60 minute film without squiriming around, so its doubtful whether they will have the patience to do much in the way of programming.


The place for all great plug-ins.
Keeping it Unreal since 2004
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Mattman
21
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Joined: 5th Jun 2003
Location: East Lansing
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 04:59
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this person REALLY made me mad

http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=29265&b=7
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Damokles
21
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Joined: 28th May 2003
Location: Belgium
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 11:51
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I don't want to sound mean, but I understand some newbies.
To take one of the most popular example : zenincanin14 !
He said there was a black screen : He is right, sombody who never programmed and uses other "nromal" programms is used to have many clickable icons. So a black screen does mean nothing.
He wants to get monsters in it : sure, when we see games there are monsters, truck, and so on.

I would suggest a tutorial for very beginners, some thing like this :

Quote: "
Type PRINT "Hello"
Press F5 and see what happens
Press F12 to quit that screen
Replace PRINT "Hello" with PRINT "Name"
Press F5 and see what happens
Press F12 to quit that screen"


That way they understand the difference between source code and programm. Because When you buy DB, you don't necessarely know that difference

- Stand clear of the closing doors -
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Pincho Paxton
21
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Joined: 8th Dec 2002
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Posted: 10th Apr 2004 13:30
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I understand why people get confused by programming certain projects, like multiplayer. When they ask for simple code like shooting, and moving they are not going to get anywhere without reading the source that they are given. What I do is instead of putting rems in the code, I put text in the code that has to be edited out. If they read it whilst they are editing it out then they should learn what each part is doing. It's hard not to read something if you are deleting it.

Pincho.

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adr
21
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Joined: 21st May 2003
Location: Job Centre
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 14:53 Edited at: 10th Apr 2004 14:57
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I've said it before and I'll say it again - this product is pitched all wrong. Well, from TGC's point of view, it's pitched just right; They're getting revenue from people who would otherwise be deterred from programming.

When someone says "I want the codes for shooting a gun" I'm beginning to realise that they think the shoot bullet from gun command is missing from the docs.

TGC have invested a lot of time in making the process to seem as easy as possible. Then you've got us, undoing all their marketing work with our grumpy-ass "find out yourself" replies. There should be a sticky in each forum which just says "remember: programming is difficult"

Mattman > agreed - that dude was annoying. He was pissed because we weren't willing to provide him with teh codes for a MMORPG. But think of it from his position - again, it's a shoot bullet from gun-type expectation.

-----

edit : Here's another community observation. Some people post topics like "community observation" and then you've got others saying "w00t - I'm almost up to 100 posts!" ... incidentally I'm on 589. I pride myself on aiming for the lowest posts/time ratio.

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Mnemonix
21
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Joined: 2nd Dec 2002
Location: Skaro
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 15:28
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This is my 384th Message.

I agree with all you about this. There is no quick way to use dbc or dbpro, it requires focus, patience and time. I have asked for help many times when maybe some of the time i would have been able to get the answer, and another time i wouldnt. Most of the mistakes made are by accident. I had IanM helping me for hours on end the other day, and the reason for the problem was mostly because i had downloaded the wrong file. As to a solution, i dont know, I think the manual is not adequate(no offence to TGC staff), but that wasnt much of a problem for me because i had learned what darkBASIC was before i got the full version. I see the help files as a reference which will tell you how to use a particular command, but not where to use it.
We should warn people that its no walk in the park doing programming, 99% of the time there will be ways to improve your work, so it will never(almost) be complete :-p.

Watch this space if you like getting bored...
http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?gf=irc <<Visit the chat!.;
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Mattman
21
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Joined: 5th Jun 2003
Location: East Lansing
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 20:20
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we REALLY, REALLY need to do something about it, maybe even I'm getting sick of it.

adr> Not only that, he acted like some hot-shot programmer. The attitude is another big thing I REALLY dont like either.

btw, post 3051
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Flashing Blade
22
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Joined: 19th Oct 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 10th Apr 2004 21:51
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This is post 495 since October 2002.

Where is teh codez to make monster and shoot gun?


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adr
21
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Joined: 21st May 2003
Location: Job Centre
Posted: 11th Apr 2004 03:07
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A possible solution:
Rich, define an associative array which assigns a score to certain words:
$aStupidWords["codes"] = 4.0
$aStupidWords["codez"] = 14.0
$aStupidWords["monster"] = 6.0
$aStupidWords["jump"] = 3.0

Obviously, people could legitimately be talking about monsters, so only assign the score once per appearance of the offending word. So, by the end of pre-posting analysis, you have a score - a "noob" score. Then you just define a threshold - A post cannot have a "n00b" score > 30.0 for example. If it does, don't post the message, just come back with an advisory message like "it sounds like your post is a bit stupid - RTFM/STFF!"

(the second acronym is one I've just made up, Search the ... forum)

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