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Geek Culture / yay my g4 is here

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indi
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Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 19th Apr 2004 07:02
I finally got the g4 up from sydney and its so so so lush.
another 512 ram is on the way in a couple of weeks to make it a 1gig ram machine.

OSX is one very slick unix operating system with all the old favorite macintosh bells and whistles built in. A lot of things you would pay for a pc in software are stock standard and built in. Contact management / Video Editng / Network tools etc..

It even nativley runs OS9 inside a window so its like emulation but without the drag of speed most emulators have due to compatability.

I stuck the A07 DVD burner in it and all I need is the pinnacle systems break out box or the media 100 studio card and i have realtime broadcast video editing. scuse,me while i wooOOT


BTW, Rich TGC website and the forum works seamlessly in the SAFARI browser for OSX. nice work with compatability there.


fall down seven times, stand up eight
Jeku
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Posted: 19th Apr 2004 07:33 Edited at: 19th Apr 2004 07:34
A side question: isn't Safari based on Firefox, or vice versa? I'm using Firefox and this site works almost perfectly. The only thing that doesn't is when I use a button on the submit reply form (i.e. B U I center quote etc.) the code appears at the end of the reply rather than where the cursor is. That is a small technicality, however.

I'm interested in getting a G4 or G5 desktop for composing music and music videos. I'm kinda Mac illiterate, but why would you want to emulate OS9 within OSX? Is that sort of the same thing as emulating Win '95 on XP so older games will run?

SubNova
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Posted: 19th Apr 2004 07:36
I think so. Why else would Apple emulate such an ugly operating system?

Death by skill, not by force.-Iron Condor
indi
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Posted: 19th Apr 2004 08:09
Not sure about the safari question. As i understoof it SAFARI was written from scratch but thats the inclination i get without checking out the details.

Os9 is competely different to OSX.
Os9 is macs legacy operating system so its based on 68k and ppc style code.
OSX is a unix variant of BSD, under the hood of your OSX is unix basically.

sometimes software has not been carbonised or native for OSX so os9 is there in case you need it.

I would wait for a next gen G5 to come out or a dual head 1.25ghz g4 for now.
anything thats new in the first incarnation usually has a few bugs and so forth,

theres a million wicked music editing applications for macintosh so it wouldnt be a problem cutting audio as well as video but for broadcast quality editing your looking at expensive hardware and software for realtime broadcast. on a budget you would outsource the video dump to a dvd and using final cut pro to edit it, back to dvd and then outsource the betamax copy for tv output.

protools with a powerfull mac would be a very nice audio mixing station.

The realtime breakout box and hardware is setting me back about $15000 Australian if i plan to buy it, Im being lent one for a while to see if it really does everything it says. thats not including the mac or the software btw.

comments by condor only show his ignorance.


fall down seven times, stand up eight
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 19th Apr 2004 11:26
Yes, its a very nice machine, but unfortunately software is harder to find than the famous Intimidating bird of the Solomon Islands.


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Naeza
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Posted: 19th Apr 2004 15:37
mac's are about as cool as i am pretty. what you need is an Amiga one! Then you can surf the aminet and play superfrog and do all kinds of magical stuff! Hail Amiga!

Release the farbror in you!
MushroomHead
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Posted: 19th Apr 2004 17:07
Quote: "OSX is a unix variant of BSD, under the hood of your OSX is unix basically"


Does this mean you can run linux software directly or do thay have to be recompiled?
Jeku
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Posted: 19th Apr 2004 22:27
@indi - Thanks for the info-- I'm quite unclear as to where Safari came from as well. I will investigate.

@MushroomHead - You'd probably have to recompile the source for Apple since its CPU is an entirely different architecture than the x86 as far as I know. That being said, compiling a binary is not very hard in Linux.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Apr 2004 00:27
Safari is Mosaic based, OSX uses IRIX (6.3) as the base.
Makes it an extrememly fast and stable Operating System, something that Macintosh have had a reputation of not being.

The MacOS Legacy (supports 9 and below in Jaguar) support is more like Windows XP Command Line Environment, that's the step in complexity and pure operating environment you have to think in terms of.

The best part of MacOSX is that Microsoft & Sun actually helped develop it.
This has given MacOSX alot of compatibility, power, and best of they've had the development experience from 2 of the best OS developers on the planet. That said MacOSX is just ridiculously expensive

Also yes the G4/G5 Processors are based on the IBM 6300 Processor, which is a RISC 32/64bit Processor which most here will probably recognise more with the name 'Gekko' as it is also what happens to power the GameCube.
They run using PowerPC Motorola Little-Endian Encoding techniques, which means everything run is Byte-Flipped...

That said the structures of the Processors are entirely different.
G4 gives you 16x 8bit Data Register
x86-32 gives you 8x 16bit, 4x 32bit, 1x 80bit Assigned Data Registers

So where you can put anything into the G4 Registers on x86 ones you have set locations for different types of data. For Multi-Tasking is a good thing, but for single operation things like games is bloody stupid and you loose alot of processing power over it.

Also Linux/Irix/Unix binaries are all completely different; so don't think you run on the same processor platform and expect them to run fine.


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the_winch
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Posted: 20th Apr 2004 00:50
Quote: "I'm quite unclear as to where Safari came from as well."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safari_(browser)

Also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X

you ain't the cops
TKF15H
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Posted: 20th Apr 2004 00:56 Edited at: 20th Apr 2004 01:03
Quote: "OSX uses IRIX (6.3) as the base."

I took a look at the Apple site, and in many, many places, they say
that OSX is Unix based with FreeBSD technology. They don't mention
IRIX anywhere. Example:
Quote: " Beneath the easy-to-use interface and rich graphics of Mac OS X
is Darwin, an open source UNIX-based foundation built on technologies
such as FreeBSD, Mach, Apache, and GCC."


Raven, are you trying to start yet another long war-thread
right after your previous one got locked???
Quote: "
Panther integrates features from state-of-the-art FreeBSD 5 into Darwin — the Open Source, UNIX-based foundation of Mac OS X — to provide enhanced performance, compatibility and usability. "


Also:
Quote: "The code for rendering web pages is based on Konqueror's KHTML engine. As a result, Safari's internal HTML engine is free software and is released under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public License. "


Can I see a demo now? [edit]Disregard, I saw the demo.
empty
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Posted: 20th Apr 2004 03:21 Edited at: 20th Apr 2004 03:32
Apples are cool for anything music related. One of the best (if not the best) sequencer programs, Logic Audio, is now MacOSX only (at least all newer versions) since Apple bought Emagic. There are tons of very good audio editors and effect plugins too.


Quote: "Also yes the G4/G5 Processors are based on the IBM 6300 Processor, which is a RISC 32/64bit Processor which most here will probably recognise more with the name 'Gekko' as it is also what happens to power the GameCube."

You forgot the 300MHz Gecko in the GBA.


Quote: "They run using PowerPC Motorola Little-Endian Encoding techniques, which means everything run is Byte-Flipped..."

Now you got something totally confused.
1) Intel x86 use little endian, Motorola 68k (and many others) use big endian
2) PowerPC are bi-endian


Quote: "G4 gives you 16x 8bit Data Register"

No, there are 32 general Integer and 32 general floating point registers.

Quote: "x86-32 gives you 8x 16bit, 4x 32bit, 1x 80bit Assigned Data Registers"

There are 4 32bit general registers (EAX-EDX) that can also be used as 4 16 bit registers (AX - DX) or as 8 8bit register (AH, AL - DH, DL). Then there are registers for pointers and segments. There are 8 80 bits floating point registers (which are handled like a stack, more or less).

Me, I'll sit and write this love song as I all too seldom do
build a little fire this midnight. It's good to be back home with you.
TKF15H
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Posted: 20th Apr 2004 03:28
Quote: " Apples are cool for anything music related"

They're also good for graphics, and they're supposedly awsome at keeping the doctor away.

Can I see a demo now? [edit]Disregard, I saw the demo.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Apr 2004 07:00
TKF15H i've been told it is Irix 6.3 based by numerous people, as I was sure it was Unix based as well.
The main thing that makes me believe that Apple's site is wrong is the fact that FreeBSD is cover by GPL. Meaning if Apple make profit from thier version of the OS, they release the Source Code.

To my knowlage there is no source on the site.
Empty, i checked it :
(6x0 Model)
32 General 32bit
32 Floating 64bit (Single Precision)
8x4 Conditional 32bit
8x Instructional 32bit
8x Data 32bit / 16x Data 8bit

as for the Intel Alpha
8 General 32bit / 8x2 General 16/32bit (EAX,EBX,ECX.EDX,EBP,ESI,EDI,ESP)
6 Segment 16bit (CS,DS,SS,ES,FS)
1 Address 80bit (ESX)
8 Floating 80bit (R0-7) Programmable
8 General 64bit (MM0-7)
8 Data 128bit (XMM0-7)

the x86 has a similar setup


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AlecM
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Posted: 20th Apr 2004 10:57
you can all pay your massive mark up for sub par performance and polka dotted cases, ill stick with building windows/linux boxes.

Jeku
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Posted: 20th Apr 2004 11:04
But who has ever been sued under the GPL?

indi
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Posted: 20th Apr 2004 11:52
lol the realtime broadcast breakout card and box are here soon. this means I can get busy with tv add jobs and waiting for final cut pro and after effects.


OSX is based on BSDunix its the same research performed that made Beos, being a very early version of what was to come for OSX.

Apples are indeed big endian.

OS9 is shown within a window when it loads, the emulation is a bad word since it just runs the OS9 applications natively and any application opened is shown within the OSX environment. Theres a million sneaky things you can do and its very customizable as an operating system.

my linux box is no more. I have OSX now as my preferred unix/linux platform.

An external fireware harddrive and case is on the way as well.

I can make this a dual head 800mhz cpu machine once i finish another website for a new customer.

Perhaps 2 gig of ram as well instead of the 1 gig it has now.


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 20th Apr 2004 12:04 Edited at: 20th Apr 2004 14:48
Whats is the Windows emulator like on a G4?


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Pricey
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Posted: 20th Apr 2004 14:46
indi, are you being paid to advertise for apple or something?


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indi
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Posted: 20th Apr 2004 16:52
havent tried the windows emulator "virtual pc" yet for osx.
I dont work for apple but im sure impressed with the product.


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empty
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Posted: 21st Apr 2004 02:17 Edited at: 21st Apr 2004 02:18
Quote: "Empty, i checked it :
(6x0 Model)
32 General 32bit
32 Floating 64bit (Single Precision)
8x4 Conditional 32bit
8x Instructional 32bit
8x Data 32bit / 16x Data 8bit"

Indeed. that's right (although I was talking about general registers). Except how many bits would *you* need for double precision floats?

Quote: "as for the Intel Alpha"

What's an Intel Alpha?

Quote: "8 General 32bit / 8x2 General 16/32bit (EAX,EBX,ECX.EDX,EBP,ESI,EDI,ESP)"

Officially only EAX to EDX are general registers, although ESI and EDI are almost generally usable.
But neither the stack pointer nor the base pointer can be classified as general registers.
MMX, 3DNow and stuff uses the floating point registers.

Me, I'll sit and write this love song as I all too seldom do
build a little fire this midnight. It's good to be back home with you.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Apr 2004 20:05
yeah well if you notice between my posts, i say the same thing. I extended the full range of Registers for your benifit seeing as you wanted to be padantic about it.

and don't get snide with comments like, "Except how many bits would *you* need for double precision floats?" ... you really do need to grow up.

for someone who was quick to try and show me up, and not even knowing what an Intel Alpha Processor is you should be ashamed of yourself.

Intel Alpha is the designation given to the Pentium Design Processors. x86 is the designation given to the Open Design used by IBM & AMD.

Although you can argue there is no difference between the processors, x86-32 and IA-32 have to have compatible registers because they're competing for the same market.

This said they're additional instruction sets are not identical in these areas, only the Registers are.

That line I have given is direct from the Intel Alpha Documentation, you have a problem with thier interpretation of what General Registers are then you know where thier site is.

MMX, 3DNow!, 3DNow! Enhanced & SSE1/2/3 all use General 64bit Registers (aside from SSE which uses combined 64/128bit)
They also introduce a number of values only available on these processors such-as, QWords and Quad Floats.


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empty
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Posted: 21st Apr 2004 21:22
Quote: "I extended the full range of Registers for your benifit seeing as you wanted to be padantic about it."

pointing out that there are more than 16 8 bit general registers in a G4 isn't pedantic. But anyway.


Quote: "for someone who was quick to try and show me up, and not even knowing what an Intel Alpha Processor is you should be ashamed of yourself. Intel Alpha is the designation given to the Pentium Design Processors. x86 is the designation given to the Open Design used by IBM & AMD.
Although you can argue there is no difference between the processors, x86-32 and IA-32 have to have compatible registers because they're competing for the same market. This said they're additional instruction sets are not identical in these areas, only the Registers are."

Ah so you think IA (formerly i386) stands for Intel Alpha? Wouldn't it be foolish to name a processor like a competitor does (at that time a competitor, that is)?
BTW that name is simply a marketing issue. They added instructions to the Pentium, while they're fully compatible to their predecessors (and that's the real problem after all).

Quote: "That line I have given is direct from the Intel Alpha Documentation, you have a problem with thier interpretation of what General Registers are then you know where thier site is."

I did notice that they call them all general purpose registers.


Quote: "MMX, 3DNow!, 3DNow! Enhanced & SSE1/2/3 all use General 64bit Registers (aside from SSE which uses combined 64/128bit)
They also introduce a number of values only available on these processors such-as, QWords and Quad Flo"

OK, being "pedantic" again:
MMX and 3DNow use the floating point registers. MMX uses 64bit of them for integer calculations, 3DNow uses them as 16 32bit single precision floats (and eliminating the stack-like behaviour of the FPU registers as well).
SSE (Pentium 3) and SSE2 (P4) use their very own registers (XMM).

Me, I'll sit and write this love song as I all too seldom do
build a little fire this midnight. It's good to be back home with you.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 21st Apr 2004 21:27
Hate to digress, but we're supposed to be discussing Indi's G4 and not computer architecture in general.

Have you played Spy Hunter (on a Mac) per chance?


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 05:31
Empty look at my first post and tell me what I call the Registers, it certainly does NOT say General next to the G4 Registers.
And you'll notice that I wasn't wrong even slightly... There is a difference between not putting down all the facts and making them up :-p

As for MMX, not they are 64bit ... however they can use all formats, the most common is using them as Float Registers; however they are capable of using 64bit Integers as well.
I can quote directly from the PDF from Intel about them if you wish.
Same goes for the fact of the name.

Why do you think x86/i386 versions of Linux are often refered to as IA-32 and IA-64; just for fun :-p
IA-64 and x86-64 models are seriously different beasties though, which the next version of Windows is going to show this quite aptly.

anyways, i386 just denote the Specification.
It's like the current Shader Models that Microsoft release.

They release the specifications, Registers, Instructions required, etc... but it is just a Specification, not a Design.
Although the x86-32 AMD (K6/K6-2/K6-3/Althon/Duron/AthlonXP Series) achieve the same as the IA-32 (Pentium/PentiumPro/PentiumMMX/Pentium2/Pentium3/Pentium4 Series) they're designs are totally different.

AMD are still working from the IBM Compatible x86 Model
Intel are working from thier *new* Alpha Model

and yes the name is close to Sparc Alpha, but as it is called Intel Alpha not just Alpha, it gets around the copyright issue.
Perhaps confusing to someone who is deep within the computer market, but to what, 80-90% of the market, they've never even heard of the Sparc let along know what thier processor is called.

All the documentation is freely available for you to checkout if you don't believe me on any of it. Intel's 5 PDF (over 340pages) of explaination, history and specifications are all on thier site.
It's a major read but if you want to understand the full story then worth it.

The main reason behind the model name change from x86 to Intel Alpha was because IBM actually own the name x86, and any processor created under that name IBM own the copyright to.
Pentium is the friendly name, Intel Alpha is classification name.

Just like the G4 is just an IBM PowerPC 603, can't remember the spec of the G5 think it's a 620 but i'd have to look it up again.

As I said though they're just friendly names not class types or dev names.
Hell the Playstation 2's is called the Emotion Processor, but to Toshiba is better known as the TX79/02. I can even tell you the new name and specs of the Emotion Engine 2 Processor.

I think it's weird to give them names like this, as if somehow it means that what goes into a PS2 is any different than what goes into a SkyDigital box, but whatever.


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indi
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 06:38
it doesnt really matter, Im moving soon to video production with this machine for work related things. Doesnt mean I wont be around here but it just means new work for me. you can crap all over my post with misinformation all you like, it doesnt change the fact some people are ignorant and pedantic.

I havent heard anyone else here say they have a g4 so I cant exactly have a conversation about the nuiances with that hardware. I hear a lot of hobgobble which lingers into either ignorance about really what the machine can do and clearly lack of real solid usage with that platform system.

Never mind tho, new opportunities in video production await me once I master the new software and get a few clients. Im glad i can share it with some here and others well i dont really care what you have to say in regards to my purchase and artwork.


On another note I found out you can add a OSX component called X11 which allows you to emulate alternative linux/unix applications as if they were on a linux / unix machine. I have open office and thegimp so far working like a charm.

I found a few dos emulators but might buy virtualpc and I have all the major OS's on one platform and machine.


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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 06:39
congrats on your g4

Was Mr X

Welcome to the Electric Funeral!!! *creeps back into the Abyss*
empty
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 13:11 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2004 13:11
Well I have to agree with TCA, this is a about indi's G4. So just 3 points for you Raven:
1) Read the documentation of MMX.
2) the Alpha originally developed and fabricated by Digital Equipment Corp.
3) IA != Intel Alpha

Me, I'll sit and write this love song as I all too seldom do
build a little fire this midnight. It's good to be back home with you.
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 17:54
I see the number of Mac games is slowly increasing - Aspyr do a lot of conversions (but not Spy Hunter 2 as yet).


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TKF15H
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 18:40
Isn't the Unreal series also available for MAC?

Can I see a demo now? [edit]Disregard, I saw the demo.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 18:53
Apparently, when I was last in PC World...


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 02:34
Empty i'm telling you EXACTLY what the Intel PDF Documentation is saying.

On the processor listing:
"The introduction of the Intel Pentium processor added a second execution pipeline to achieve superscalar performance (two pipelines, known as u and v, together can execute two instructions
per clock). This new Intel Alpha 32-bit (IA-32) Architecture has been the base for the entire Pentium processor class."

This is why it is often confused :-p
It is also refered to as Architecture alot, however that is not what Intel have actually called it.
SPARC Alpha / Amiga Alpha (became PowerPC 5xx) / SGI Alpha
They all bare this name... it's just popular really.

On MMX
"A subsequent stepping of the Pentium family introduced Intel MMXâ„¢ technology (the Pentium Processor with MMX technology). Intel MMX technology uses the single-instruction, multipledata (SIMD) execution model to perform parallel computations on packed integer data contained in 64-bit registers."


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DrakeX
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 02:58
shut UP raven and empty. neither of you are going to convince the other, and this is about indi's computer, not your childish desires to win a pointless argument over processor architecture.

on topic - i hated macs up until this easter. OS9 is horrid. this easter, my cousin's boyfriend brought his G4 laptop with OSX on it. oh, it's beautiful. it's one of the most intuitive and solid-feeling OSes i've used. the one thing i can't stand about macs tho, is the way they have the "one toolbar fits all" approach, so if you close the program window, which exits the program in windows, the program can still be running. exceedingly irritating.

macs are slowly becoming more appealing to me. however i don't forsee my getting one until i really need to, for example if MS dies or some other catastrophic event that renders PCs useless.

the nature of fanboy was irrepressible.
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empty
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 03:00 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2004 03:01
Quote: "Empty i'm telling you EXACTLY what the Intel PDF Documentation is saying."

The first sentence is correct, and you just made up the second one.
http://www.intel.com/design/pentium4/manuals/25366513.pdf

Quote: "SPARC Alpha / Amiga Alpha (became PowerPC 5xx) / SGI Alpha"

No Sparc Alpha CPU, no Amiga Alpha CPU, no SGI Alpha CPU, but DEC Alpha.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_Alpha

Quote: "A subsequent stepping of the Pentium family introduced Intel MMXâ„¢ technology (the Pentium Processor with MMX technology). Intel MMX technology uses the single-instruction, multipledata (SIMD) execution model to perform parallel computations on packed integer data contained in 64-bit registers."

Then read section 2.3 and 5.4.
And explain the MMX instruction "EMMS".


@DrakeX
Quote: " shut UP raven and empty."

Your wish is my command. Occasionally...

I know you're rich in good clothes and little things. Your mind is fancy and your car is bitching.
Is she weird? Is she weird, is she white is she promised to the night.
And her head has no room.
Ian T
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 03:03
Empty's right!

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 03:41
o_O ... well i've never heard of the DEC Alpha, but I have heard/seen/used the rest.
So really that's more down to what you've had access to isn't Empty not just what you search engine has turned up.

Good example, search for Emotion Engine CPU. No where gives you an actual link to Toshiba site. Hell most don't even tell you the designation of the Processor, I had to crack open my PS2 just to find out.

I've read the entire 5x PDF on the IA-32 Empty... you can use ALL types. I'd suggest you read the section on XXM (SSE) Registers to how they have changed the setup of MMX over the Pentium series.

Infact weirdly they've actually waned support for access through data types in favour of fewer new types. It's confusing what they've done.
MMX Operations will run faster on a Pentium2 than they will on a Pentium4. Not that it matters alot with HT but the point is still valid and makes no sense to me.


Athlon64 FX-51 | 1.5Gb DDR2 PC3400 | GeForce FX 5900 Ultra 56.60 | DirectX9.1 SDK | Audigy2 | Windows XP 64-Bit
indi
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 14:13
hey who needs virtual pc DARWINE is slowly being put together.

yay!

http://darwine.opendarwin.org/index.php


fall down seven times, stand up eight
Phaelax
DBPro Master
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 24th Apr 2004 02:33
I have 2 friends with G4's. And yes, Unreal is on the mac. If I remember, its dual 1.4ghz IBM chips, right?

"eureka" - Archimedes
OSX Using Happy Dude
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st Aug 2003
Location: At home
Posted: 24th Apr 2004 12:13
It can have - its optional unfortunately...


The place for all great plug-ins.
Keeping it Unreal since 2004

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