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Work in Progress / Level Editor [W.I.P]

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MikeS
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 03:47 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2004 03:51
Hello,

This is my current project that I'm working on.
It's an indoor level creator meant for indoor games.

It's rather simple, and I'll explain the process of building a level here.

1.) You start out with a grid of 50x20 (Option to change dimensions isn't possible at the moment, but may be in the future)
2.) Left click to raise and create a walll, right click to lower the wall.

When a wall is raised, a texture is automatically applied to the wall. The way this works is, you simply select a texture set before you create anything. It may be to have stone walls, with gravel ground and a brick roof. The level consists of 3 main parts, the ground, the roof, and the walls.

In the picture below, you'll see a generic floor/roof along with stone walls.

3.) After you've raised the tiles to your liking, you can apply a roof, and scale it if you want some parts of the level outdoor. Since this is meant to be an indoor level editor, the focus isn't complex roof scenes.

4.) Save your map as a .x file.

Now, this is where the editor takes over. As you'll see in the screenshot, 12000 polygons running at 13 FPS is ridiculous!!! BUT, you'll also see I have an estimated polygon count under that. The estimated polygon count is what the level will automatically be reduced to using my magic technique. The more tiles you raise the higher the polycount, the less you raise, the lower the polygon count. No matter what though, the polygon count once you export your level will always be lower, and thus the level editor optimizes your level for you.

Another magic part of the editor is that the ugly seems on the floor disappear. Sounds too good to be true, and it is. Unfortuantly the texture will appear very low res, but this is a result of the optimization above.(Lowering the polygon count).

5.) Finally, load your level into DBP and apply collisions using NG ,the in-built collision system, or perhaps your own!

top: Inside level with roof applied Bottom: Overview workmode
Created in under 5 minutes!



Features to come are: (In-order of priority)
- An IDE and menu
- Import .x/.3ds/.dbo/etc. models for placement. (At this point there is a beta placement system, but I'm planning on making it more efficient and giving users more control.)
- Optimize the editor to make it faster!
- Fix low res textures on floor after exporting.
- More textures sets for level (Currently only 4)


-------------------------------------------------------------------
F.A.Q


1. Q.) Where's the demo?
A.) 1 of 2 things will happen before a demo is released. The demo will be released once either the IDE is finished(so you can use it easily), or once the full version is complete the demo will be released.

2. Q.) When will this level editor be finished?
A.) I'm going to do everything in my power to get it finished as soon as possible. I don't want to give an exact date, but I'd like to have it finished by June/July time.

3.) Q.) Wow, you really hyped this up, but, Valve Hammer and the other level editors put this one to shame. What's up with you?
A.) Aren't I allowed to get excited too? Of course this isn't going to be the best level editor out there. The goal of this level editor is to be able to make levels fast, and easy enough for someone with no 3D knowledge to build/design a gret level.

4.) Q.) What genres of games do you recommend for this tool?
A.) Maze games, FPS, Adventure games, or anything involving indoor scenes.

5.) Q.) You emphasize indoor, but can I make outdoor levels at all?
A.) Yes you can in a sense. Just take the roof off and you can have a outdoor or part-outdoor level.

6.) Q.) Is this product going to be sold once it's finished?
A.) At this point and time, I'm not planning on selling this map editor.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, hope you enjoy. Feel free to post any questions or comments (if I didn't already boost/answer them myself ) about the Level Editor.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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LoKiDeCaT
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 03:51
The only thing I can see is some texturing issues. Maybe it's the bricks you're using that have dark in one corner, but the blending from one wall plane to another is apparent.

Otherwise, looks really nice. Sort of like cartography shop (in a way).

Loki D'Cat - Modeller, Composer, Animator
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Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 03:51
Nice, I saw this on your site and was wondering when it'd be done. At least this gives me some insight on it.


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MikeS
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 03:53
Thanks Zero Blitzt

In fact, I should mention that this is a complete re-build of the one on my site. (Better update that site o' mine.)



@LoKiDeCaT

The textures on the floor are going to be worked out. As far as the walls, that's on my to-do list. I've got some ideas to fix the texture blending though.



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comando 300
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 04:10
That looks great!

CURRENT PROJECT: RETRO PAC-MAN
TEH_CODERER
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 20:37
Yeah. Apart from frame rate it looks good!

Current Projects: Dark_Worlds_Map_Editor version0.1 aneale5@orange.esinet.org.uk
MikeS
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 04:54
Thanks Andrew.

The editor has gotten a little faster since my first post. You can easily get 50 FPS when the whole map is note on the scene, so that's very good news for me.

Today I added highlighting of your selected tile making this very convient for use.

I'll definitly get more work done this weekend, and until then I'll keep you updated.



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MikeS
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Posted: 25th Apr 2004 20:46
Added some more textures to help tide you over.



Also started doing some work in photoshop and am making designs for the GUI.

Progress is running nicely. I've also added highlighting of tiles so you can easily tell where your mouse cursor is at.

Well, this was just a little update, and I'll be sure to keep you more informed.



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MikeS
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Posted: 25th Apr 2004 23:52
Have been working on the level editor for a good few hours throughout the day, and am very happy with the progress.

The level editor now runs 50% faster than before. That means it runs between 27-28 FPS when the whole map(12000 Polygons) is in view and being worked on.

I've also been working on a GUI which has come along nicely. It's nice, fairly small ,and compact. I'll post a screenshot once I make it more professional.(currently just black and white)

Worked a little bit on the object placement system. I'm also pleased to announce that I will be including enough .X(perhaps converted to .dbo) objects for users to make their own games. This list may include a generic animated human, a few monsters, crates, barrels, two or three guns, and plenty of other objects to decorate with.

------------Aspect 1-----------------
I'm now pondering over two aspects that I'd like your feedback on.

The first element is for the level editor to become a full game engine. I've been working on a simple IDE that will be used to insert custom scripts.

An example might be:
If your character(which you'll define) steps onto a certain tile, another one lowers or rises. Or something as simple as variables of health etc.

These scripts would just be simple text files that would be parsed before the game runs and conditions would be checked during runtime.
------------Aspect 1-----------------


------------Aspect 2-----------------
If you look at the screenshots above, you'll notice a lack of lighting. I'm considering a way to easily place lightmaps. Hardware lights are obviously out of the question, but I may be able to implement lightmaps which would really enhance the scenes above.

I suppose most would say yes, and I agree. Lightmapping won't be priority, but if nothing, I'll try to find a way to easily send the map data to a third party source to be lightmapped. Most likely though, I'm going to try to develop my own system even if it's very simplistic.(Some is better than none right? )
------------Aspect 2-----------------

Well, keep checking for updates and I'll be eager to hear your input. This project is really starting to roll and I'm having more fun programming than ever. (I'm even getting crazy ideas like lightmapping and a script system)



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Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 26th Apr 2004 00:07
This is going to be great, and I guess I could use this for a driving game... one of those maps where you have to turn a lot. Also, this would be great for an FPS. True time saver.

To sum things up... I'm dying for the release


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Powersoft
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Posted: 26th Apr 2004 20:17
i have had a similar idea but make the parts of the game in my 'suite' and code it into action in dbpro

Just to add to the confusion.
Look at my avatar
MikeS
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Posted: 27th Apr 2004 05:22
Sounds interesting Rich.

Hehe, glad to see you're awaiting a release Zero Blitz.

Some updates:

Started working on a basic lightmapper. Most likely the lightmapper will be developed as a seperate application. This is just for simplicity, although it may sound complicated.

The system will be broken up into 3 parts.

1.) Make your level in the level builder.
2.) Load it into the lightmapping application.
3.) Use the script engine to add characters, move them, etc.

Here's an early shot of what the IDE might look like.
(Subject to change)


Planned features for level editor:
-Multiple cameras(Probebly just 1 so you can see behind yourself.
-A minimum of 8 texture sets.(Currently 3)
-Ability to create multiple floors and staircase.

Planned features for lightmapper:
(More in-depth explanation here)
http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=30507&b=3-Ability to easily position lights.
-Ability to load and save the level data.


Planned features for Script system:
-At this point I'm still planning this more in-depth. (Will probebly end up building some kind of an interpreter/compiler to easily make the levels)

(One more screenshot for the heck of it. )

Selection of tiles in red to make easy editing.



(From now on I'm going to be using this thread as a development diary.)

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Powersoft
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Posted: 27th Apr 2004 19:57
did you use an rts select tool for the tile selecting/?

Just to add to the confusion.
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MikeS
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Posted: 27th Apr 2004 23:22
I simply used the pick object command.





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Powersoft
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Posted: 28th Apr 2004 20:20
im an idiot

Just to add to the confusion.
Look at my avatar
MikeS
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Posted: 1st May 2004 20:24 Edited at: 1st May 2004 20:44
Heh, no worries Rich, just make sure you have U5(maybe U4??) installed.

[5-1-04]
Still working on getting lighting to work, although I now understand the process I must go through.

Started messing around with bumpmapping today, but it's way to slow (6 FPS for just 5 bumpmapped objects!). I think it'd be nice to have some bumpmapping included, but I'll have to fake it somehow.

In my search to fake bumpmapping I messed around with blend mapping and that's working out pretty good. So I might include a blendmapping option in the level editor.

Also added some nice options for the GUI including a wireframe view mode and the ability to speed up and slow down the camera.

Finally, some good news for everyone. Level Editor now runs at 40-42 FPS steadily. That's nearly 2.5 times faster than the first ever build.

Well, that's all for now. Sorry no screenshots. I promise to post some once lighting and some more features are implmented.

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Peter H
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Posted: 1st May 2004 21:17
MikeS- will your level editor import objects?(.x)


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MikeS
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Posted: 1st May 2004 22:07
I'll probebly have the option to import .X objects. As of now, the object placement system will probebly the most difficult part of the whole level editor.

It would be easy, but there's a few things I want it to have.

1.) Users be able to place object on floor tile and be able to rotate and shove it against a corner nicely.
2.) Objects to be affected by lighting.
3.) Users to be able to import .x/.dbo objects into the editor for placement.
4.) Users to be able to scale objects.
5.) And the big one, automatic object collision. I'll most likely end up using DBP's in-built collision system(unless I build a maths one). Users will be able to choose sphere or box collision on there objects.

As you can see, the list is growing. Object placement right now consists of placing a box on a tile, so it's nowhere near ready. As I've mentioned before though, there will be enough objects provided with the level editor to build a game without making any extra media.

------------------
On a side note, I started working and improving my save/load system.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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MikeS
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Posted: 2nd May 2004 00:00 Edited at: 2nd May 2004 00:02
To the novice, these may look amazing, but there are many changes needed. Just felt like posting my progress for I've been working all day and wanted to take a break. Also note that these were just quick bump maps made with the Adobe Photoshop Nvidia plugin. I'll definitly be redoing the media(bump mapping doesn't add to much from the screenshot), but right now it's important that I get an easy working system going.

You'll see the first pictures of the GUI. That's pretty much how it's going to stay, although I'll add color and a sense of depth to it later on. In other post I'll explain the buttons when I near release. (currently bump/blend mapping are controled by short-cut keys so you won't see them there)

Blend Mapping. Less than a second to process




66 tiles bump mapped. 4 seconds to process.




Blend+Bump Mapping 3 seconds to process(this scene)


As you can see, you'll have some control over whether you want blend mapping/bump and blend mapping, bump mapped, or none at all.

In all screenshots you'll observe the FPS running fairly well.
You'll notice some other icons that arn't important now, but will be eventually.

As of now, only 2 of the 3 texture sets support bump mapping, yet all of them will eventually. The catch is though, as of now there won't be a way to have the floor&walls bump/blend mapped you must choose one or the other. Of course, I will soon be adding support to easily just click on a tile and have effect applied.

Progress as of now has really stepped up. The only part I'm lacking is getting lighting to work how I'd like, and the exporting/reloading code is getting quite complicated with all these features I keep adding.

I've also added 2 speed functions(as I call them) to my program. They're called raise and lower. One raises every tile, one lowers every tile. This is very nice because you can easily raise the whole map and carve your path, or you screw up you can restart by lower the map. I'll have to add some sort of "Are you sure you want to lower the map" warning just in case.

Wow, that was long. Hope I didn't forget anything. Looking for any suggustions at this point.

I also have another issue to bring up, aspect 3.

------------Aspect 3-----------------
Collision

I'm planning on doing some sort of collision. I have one of two plans with a couple of options.

1.) Design my own collision system. This will either be math based or something similiar. I might even take the route of C++ on this one. With this, once maps are exported they'd sort of be like BSP's in that collision is already done.

2.) Use DBP's collision system. As mentioned above(1 post up), users will choose if they want to apply sphere/box collision to there objects. DBP's collision system is merely okay for simple things. Since most of my objects are cubes though, DBP might fit the job. Collision would probebly be exported with the map so it'd sort of be like BSP's. BUT, I'd add in option to not include the collision so you could use something like Nuclear Glory's system or perhaps even your own.


------------Aspect 3-----------------

Okay, I'm done for this post. I promise.


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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 2nd May 2004 00:12
Lookin really good Mike, but any chance of fixing those normals?

Trying is the first step towards faliure.
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MikeS
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Posted: 2nd May 2004 02:30 Edited at: 2nd May 2004 02:31
Have any suggustions about how I should go about it?
The tiles are placed just about as close as they can be. I'll have to do some kind of "trick" blending. When indeed the ground is blended there are no seems at all.

So how should I go about fixing the normals?



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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 2nd May 2004 02:32
Well, one way is memblocks, just stick the normals all out to the side parralel with the tiles. Otherwise maybe mucking around with set object smoothing() might work?

Trying is the first step towards faliure.
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MikeS
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Posted: 2nd May 2004 02:38
Set object smoothing didn't work to well.

Guess I'll have to fiddle around with memblocks.

--------A side note--------
It's also quite interesting that converting all of my objects to memblocks and then meshes and finally objects gave me a +2 FPS boost. Might be helpful for someone if they're working with as many objects as me. (Although loading time is increased)



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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 2nd May 2004 03:16
Ye. The problem is that the normals are not going in the same direction, therefore each vertex has different lighting. If you make them all go the same direction (perpendicular to the face), then they will be shaded flat. I don't know why that memblock speed increase is :S. Maybe it takes out some information from the object and makes them render faster.

Trying is the first step towards faliure.
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John H
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Posted: 4th May 2004 04:11
Hmm, well it seems as if Hamish is right. The normals are a bit off. Van is the expert about those around here, Id suggest you ask him Theres a secret command in DBP that merges two objects together if they are touching, which might be really usefull for you with all those cubes. The problem is I just cant remember the command >_< Heres an example of what it does

Two Cubes next to each other
_ _
|_||_|

But there would be no noticeable gap in between. Still, there are 24 polies being rendered (12 per cube) The 4 polies not showing (the two walls touching) are removed by this command, reducing the ammount of polies rendered to 20. Now this might not seem like much, but look at 1000 cubes. That would be From 24000 to 20000. 4000 polies off

Ill do some digging (and asking) for that command =D

Nice work Mike!

RPGamer


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Mussi
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Posted: 4th May 2004 18:08
COMPILE CSG is what you're after



Specs: AMD Athlon 1800, 256 DDRRam 266mhz, 80GB HD 7200rmp U133, Geforce 4 Ti4400 128mb
MikeS
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Posted: 5th May 2004 00:32
Hamish:
Quote: "I don't know why that memblock speed increase is :S. Maybe it takes out some information from the object and makes them render faster."


Sounds like a definite possiblility Hamish. Nonetheless, I'll try a test with something big(like a 100,000 polygon object) and see if the results make a difference.


--------------------------
RPGamer:

Thanks for the kind words. I'm really trying to get those normals fixed and then get lighting set. After that, all I need to do is add lighting and an object system. (And if I feel ambitious I'll add some scripts and turn this into an entire engine.)


--------------------------
Mussi:

Ah, that looks like the command I need.
I'm having some trouble getting it to work as the help documents and the usage examples aren't helping me much.

Right now I've just tried multiple combinations of the command.



Any help would be greatful.

---------------------------------
Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

[5-4-04] Working on how to get the normals sorted out. After that the to-do list consists of.

1.) Get normals fixed.
2.) Add my lighting.
3.) Object placement system.
4.) Finish the GUI.
5.) Add more textures.
6.) Tweak bump/blend mapping features.
7.) Optimize editor.
8.) Prepare a beta test. (Not sure if I'll release openly)



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Siege
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Posted: 5th May 2004 20:07
Heh editor looks nice, i want to make my own but i dont know where to start! Gan you help me?

siegedelux@hotmail.com

SiegeDelux@:
MikeS
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Posted: 6th May 2004 00:42
Thanks for the kind comments Siege. The process of making the editor isn't very difficult. The very first 10x10 grid version of this editor(not pictured) was done in only 150 lines of code. I'll make a quick outline of the process of making this map editor.



If you need more help ,after trying yourself, please use my e-mail
, as I want to keep this thread on topic.


-------------------------------------
Still trying to work out normals problem. Havn't had much time recently, but it's slowly moving along.

I'd also like to take some comments on what speed functions you'd like. A speed function will be(and already is) something that can be done very fast by the editor without the user doing anything.

So far I've got 2 speed functions. Raise every tile, or lower every tile. I'm also considering random maze generation so users can create levels within seconds. Any other ideas will be appreciated. (Although these are the big 3 I'll include.)



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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 6th May 2004 01:02
Any ability to raise more than one tile at a time? Also shifting selected tiles along could be good if you figure out your wall is in the wrong place you can simply shift it rather than do it again.

Trying is the first step towards faliure.
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MikeS
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Posted: 6th May 2004 03:45
Selecting more than one tile at once, excellent. I think I'll add selections of 1,4,and 8 tiles at once.

Shifting tiles should also be done easiliy enough as well.

Thanks for the suggustions Hamish.



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Social Disease
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Posted: 11th May 2004 07:30
Hi Yellow, a quick question.
Can you save your boxes to a .x? if so how?

Think Gad fro Spill Chock!
MikeS
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Posted: 11th May 2004 23:48
Hi Social Disease,

Quote: "Can you save your boxes to a .x? if so how?"

If by boxes you mean levels then yes, that wil be possible. Doing this will be as simple as clicking the save button for the user. I might consider having two export options.

1.) Save the whole level as one object.
2.) Save each individual tile. While this may be inifficient for some, it'll give users the power to get rid of extra polygons.



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MikeS
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Posted: 13th May 2004 03:27 Edited at: 13th May 2004 03:34
Some Important updates for this project.

Issue one: This project will undergo a few things. I will probably release the current version sometime soon as it is and let people play around with it.

I've considered doing a complete rebuild and I've already started today.

"Oh no! The Level Editor is gone forever!"

No, not at all. In fact, your suggustions and issues raised from this post will be implemented into the new build. The new build will be geared more towards FPS/Maze/(possibly RPG) games. Although, there will be enough flexibility to adapt the editor to whatever genre you desire.

I've also decided that there will be some sort of script system for this level editor so it'll be the only tool you need for building games. Whether you'll have to code the whole game, select a script, or toggle options hasn't been decided yet as I'm not sure how far (in terms of scripting) I want to take this project. (Most likely though, users will select scripts to use and be able to toggle some options)

Well, that's all. This project is not dead, just experiencing a major rehaul, definitly for the better.

Trust me, you'll be pleasently surprised.



[EDIT] See the DBP E3 post in the general section. I plan to release some information if that event falls through.

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