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Geek Culture / PC-Game market in crisis?

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Zwonimir
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 17:08
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Sometimes I answer myself...
Is the PC games market in crisis cause the cd-ROM burning diffusion?
I think the reality is different for each nation, in Italy the music and videogames market is stalled for years.
Can a softwarehouse make good profits?

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Dave J
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 17:09
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Why do you think so many more companies are moving to console development now-a-days?


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Zwonimir
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 17:13
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of course I've writed about games like Championship Manager or other genres that appears only in the PC market (the LucasArt 4 example)

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BatVink
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 17:19
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I believe one of the factors is the demand for good-looking, well featured games is outpacing the desire to pay for development of these games. Everyone wants bigger and better but for less. Hence the booming trade in black-market copies.

It's what we call "ever decreasing circles" in the UK. The problem is compounding itself. we are stuck in a recursive loop .

BatVink
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 17:24 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2004 17:27
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I dont think its much due to CD copying - its more due to the fact that more money can be made from console owners because they can be charged more due to license fees etc etc.

Unfortunately the PC is going to revert back to like it was when the PC first came out - very few games availiable; the majority being availiable for console games. PC game software is in a terminal decline.

It wouldn't be so bad if the SDK's for game consoles were easily (and cheaply availiable), but aside from the PS2's one, they're not.


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flibX0r
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 17:26
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No, the game market is not dead. In fact, it makes more money worldwide than the movie industry. I buy games when i can, and hire them when i can't (Video shops over here hire games)

The real problem is that it is impossible to make a game uncrackable on the PC. Unless we can start making USB dongles or something that are encypted and contain some kind of key that is necessary for it to run.... Wait, that could still be cracked. Damn, i got no ideas

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Zwonimir
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 17:35
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all the way I think is also possible to modify the PS2 EProm to run burned cds.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 18:16 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2004 18:17
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Yes, you can also get chipped XBox's too...

Quote: "(Video shops over here hire games)"

Can you hire PC games then ?


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flibX0r
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 18:22 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2004 18:29
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yup, except for some reason the shop near me don't hire EA games... strange

Had to buy C&C Generals and Zero Hour. Good games though, great for lan parties.

China will grow larger
China has big generals
I am BIG
We fight from hide place

love the things the units say

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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 18:33
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Quote: "PC game software is in a terminal decline."


I disagree. It's just in a downwards swing right now while we're waiting for the next generation tech (Longhorn and Palladium for example).

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 18:34
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Will that make any difference though - peoples reluctance to upgrade for example.


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flibX0r
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 18:39
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Well, we've kinda run out of original game ideas. There are still some, but not many. And way, way too many WW2 games.

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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 18:43
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Reluctance to upgrade dosen't matter in the long run. Most people just buy a new computer every <varaible dependant on lifestyle> years. The technology ends up going up, in bumps or in a ramp, over the course of a few years; it just happens. Games reliant on new technology take a little while to take off, but once they have, it's a whole new frontier all oven again.

As for original game ideas... it's all been done before. And at the same time, there is always room for something new. Advancing technology allows this in its own way, too; higher screen resolutions, new 3d effects, and advances that we can't even predict now have and will opened up new areas of gaming previously completely innacesible.

By the way, all the profit charts disagree with the theory that the PC game industry is dying, too .

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 18:44
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Ah - so, you've seen EA's product list for next year then...

Yes, all game ideas have now been used up unfortunately...


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Scouseknight
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 18:45
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That's the reason I went out and got a console I grew tired of keeping up with the graphics cards, processors and memory - it doesn't stand still long enough these days!!

Most of my gaming is console based now - online too (with the XBox Live service) but I still have games that can only really be played on the PC at the moment like RTS games and my all time favourite, Grand Prix Legends.

I will always buy a PC game if it's what I want to play - it's not a cut and dried thing but at the moment, my gaming is more than satisfied with the console - apart from the ones I play from these forums of course



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GameMaker Jason
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 19:54
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I think that PC game will still be popular in the future because most of them feature better graphics than consoles and they are cheaper than console games (eg. Prince of Persia).
I have also heard that the profits for PC and Console games are going up and very soon it will make more money than music and movie together.

http://www.freewebs.com/jason_lovett/ My Games Website
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Blue Shadow
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 19:58
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I don't think that all the original ideas have been taken up. It just need a new visionary in the industry. Theres a fire fighter sim coming out soon. I played the demo on a magazineand its very good. We are currently moving into the new era of MMO games and soon into the era of Virtual reality.

Cheers,

Michael


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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 20:04 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2004 20:05
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Quote: "Everyone wants bigger and better but for less."


Actually I disagree.

It seems the only games coming out now are Quake but bigger and better. Personally i'd start buying games again if:

1) They came down to a sensible price (£15-20);
2) They are not another Quake;
3) They are not an FPS game that pretends not to be Quake (Halo etc);

There's loads of great game ideas from the past that could be re-written with the latest technology. Unfortunately the industry is focused on very specific genre's and their lack of originality and board room game design is as passe and dull as watching a black and white movie you've seen 18 times since you where a kid.

I dont want bigger & better. I want the industry to wake up and actually start delivering games again, instead of a mission pack for Quake with WW2 graphics.

I got bored of Quake when I was 18. I'm now 28. [EDIT: ooops, 29 now Midlife crisis on the way...].

Every now and then we get an RTS for novelties sake. Unfortunately RTS games that advanced the genre have been overlooked (like TA for instance) and instead we have identical clones of C&C and Warcraft with new graphics and a different mission pack.

Maybe i'm just not paying enough attention to the games that are coming out, but all the trips to the shops i've made over the last 2 years suggest I am right.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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GameMaker Jason
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 20:09
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there are definatly to many FPS games around all with a WW2 theme. why don't they bring-out a game like Red Alert but with todays technology instead of expansion packs.

http://www.freewebs.com/jason_lovett/ My Games Website
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Wik
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 20:43
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Uhhh....Ever heard of C&C Generals?


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AlecM
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 21:12 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2004 21:14
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The PC game market has been dying for years. Its difficult to compete when a $200 console can do everything your $1200 computer can.

Andy: I think thats a little harsh. Publishers are only care about money and won't pay to develop anything that hasnt already been done. Change has to come slowly.

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GameMaker Jason
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 21:52
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I know a PC is more but they can do much more than just play games you can make documents, presentation, your own games, print, view the internet and lots more.

http://www.freewebs.com/jason_lovett/ My Games Website
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 21:57
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CD burners aren't to blame - even back on the 8-bit computers all we had to do was copy a tape using a standard hi-fi twin-tape deck - not exactly difficult.

I buy PS2 games (not many.. but I do) and I buy a few selected PC titles as well - but the number doesn't come close to comparing. The only PC games I've ever bought (recently) that I thought were actually worth the money have been Halo, UT2003/2004 and Return to Castle Wolfenstein. They're all FPS There just isn't anything else out there that interests me enough (that I cannot get on the PS2).

That said.. HL2 and Doom3 await.

Most developers will release on PC and PS2 and X-Box if they have any sense, I don't see this changing anytime soon (if ever).

Cheers,

Rich

With our species on the edge of extermination,
with no prospect but a horrible death,
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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 22:50 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2004 22:50
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Hard to say it, but it dosen't take originality to make a good game. Many games can be all but rip-offs of other, earlier titles, and still surpass them in most aspects (though that is quite rare). Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic is an example. The whole series is based completely off of Master of Magic and its later clone, Lords of Magic, with a few touches of Heroes. But by the time it's gone through 3 games to get to Shadow Magic, it's a darn fun expirience anyways. The same holds true with most modern FPS, which have very little original to them, or HOMM III, which, having gone through 4 iterations, is a game refined to near perfection and years of replayability. Age of Empires II managed to perfect the essense of its prequel, which in and of itself took most of its ideas from earlier games, and IMHO still surpasses every other existing real-time strategy title.

My final point: Seeing an old idea revamped can be just as fun or funner as a new idea. It's more mature, more stable, and far more reliable.

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Gery
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 23:21
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in here is a big crisis thx for god
i are not know any man in hungary, who buy CD-s.

but i dont think, that the PC Game markets n crisis. Its much CD-Newspapers, and others, that comes with legal CD-s, full games, ect...

Ezerkilencszázhatvanba' / ördög szart a katlanba /aki először megszólal /azé lesz a katlan szar.
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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2004 23:58 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2004 00:00
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I still buy PC games as long as they're not easy to play on consoles. Ever tried playing an RTS on a console? Games like The Movies will be better on PC because of its genre. Also FPS will always be king on PCs because of ease of play compared to consoles.

The reality is, games developers try and make the most money when releasing a game (duh). *Most* will create games for systems in this order:

PS2
Xbox
PC & GameCube

That's been my experience. Now if you look at it that way, the games being developed are geared toward the console experience, then "ported" over to PC after. I've never tried Prince of Persia SOT on a PC, but I can't imagine the controls would be as intuitive as on a console. I think most people feel that way about the "consolish arcade games".

Sometimes when the game is delayed, the PC & GameCube games aren't even made due to time constraints.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 02:15
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Zwo, the Entire Games Industry is actually in crisis. Something recently covered by a 4-day discussion of some of the main players in the gaming industry at GDC 2004, is Software Piracy.

Currently the ONLY company that is immune to piracy is Nintendo.
Until around 4months ago, it was impossible to get you hands on a Mini-DVD (which is the format GameCube uses).
Even with this fact now in play, it is exceedingly hard to copy the discs and *even* if you do copy them, they just will not work on a GameCube (not even the Panasonic version).

So just what is it that make the GameCube so different from the PS2, X-Box, Macintosh and PC-CD Platforms?
Put quite bluntly TCPA.

Incase anyone is unaware of what this is, TCPA is a hardware based protection system. Encoded into the hardware of a system, it allows developers to have an even harder encryption method.

'Did the Playstation/Playstation2 not have this in thier BIOS?"
Yes, however where Sony have placed thiers in thier BIOS and easily copied and replaced system. Nintendo's resides in 3 Pieces of custom Hardware.

Gekko Processor, ATi Video Processor & Nintendo Chipset...
The Bios is now no longer the only part which has it.
On top of this the DVD Discs being used also have a form of hardware protection built into the BIOS of the DVD Drive, when you include this with the fact that they are in DVD-Ram format not DVD-Rom format the levels of protection of this machine aren't just apparent but trying to copy a game is like trying to clip fort knox.

So why hasn't the PC yet moved to TCPA hardware?
Well plans are in the pipeline and once they do, hopefully software will suddenly become alot cheaper because Publishers can't use the excuse that Pirateers are causing lost earnings.

The only two problems stand between the development community and the home user community.
Users who have already boycott TCPA & Microsoft!

Microsoft (as do a collection of 30 companies backing them) that this pirate problem requires a very firm hand indeed. Microsoft over the past 3 years have reported to have lost around $40million in revenue due to people stealing Windows.
They are faced with a problem to either limit how you can use CD-Copying Software OR introduce a protection system that hackers cannot break.

Unfortunately due to this most extreme losses they are trying to put a legislation through in America to make it Illegal to own NON-TCPA Hardware. Here in lies the actual problem faces by most users who now are for TCPA.

It is a shame that something that started out as a few bad apples has escallated to something which last year cost the jobs of over 10,000 software developers in the US and UK combined, and has caused numerous companies to fold. Including some of the most prodominant like Black Island (they have one game to finish before Interplay disband them and put the best and the brightest into other companies).


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Ian T
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 02:40 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2004 02:45
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The Xbox uses TCPA. It's in the hardware. It was Microsoft's first testing platform. TCPA isn't what is helping the Cube stay piracy safe, it's the difficulty of getting the digital format it uses-- the few people who can buy them, have the money to burn, and have the materials to burn them aren't nearly enough to do any market damage.

Anyways, piracy is never going to really threaten the games industry. It's a problem, but piracy requires an industry to work.

To clarify, it's about as likely the games industry will fall apart because of software piracy as it is that the human race will collapse because of serial murder. The latter is always a parasite and cannot damage more than a percentage. In both cases, there's always a large number of people who are morally against it, along with all the good reasons to buy real software. That's what keeps the majority of the people in the world from being pirates (well, along with not knowing how the heck they'd get stuff, in the cases of the really ignorant/stupid people).

Along with that, there's a still as of yet untapped market that would probaly pirate far less than the current average game corperation's target market.

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Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 04:09
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Actually you can copy GameCube games if you have the network adapter and a copy of Phantasy Star Online. You can hook it up to your PC, copy a game to your HD, and stream it over to the gamecube when you want to play. It's not as nice as burning a disc, but it's better than nothing (if you're into breaking the law of course).

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 04:39 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2004 04:47
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Mouse the X-Box uses current technology (unaltered) which has no TCPA right now. Microsoft also cut costs in this area, and went for the Sony BIOS Protection Option; This is why you can Mod-Chip your X-Box as well as a Playstation/Playstation2.

Nintendo's GameCube and Apple G4/G5 are currently the only Technologies on the market using TCPA Technology.

Jeku that does not work, Nintendo.com Insider has a currently growing list of 'suggested' hacking methods and the results that have been come across.
Believe me your method doesn't work, and even to have a chance in hell of working you would require several things done prior to even attempting.

The only people to 'successfully' (and i use this word loosely and in quotes as it hasn't been proven) are the Black Circle Hackers.
They claim to have successfully created a GC ROM, they also stated that burning it to Mini-DVD and putting it in the GC simply resulted in the GC not recognising the disc.

Panasonic the creators of the DVD-Ram hardware (something i use as it was the first DVD format) have released numerous burners capable of exporting to this format.

Nintendo are standing to thier claim that the machine in unhackable, and for 2years of trying they appear to be correct.

[edit] and mouse i don't see how you can honestly saw that piracy doesn't affect the games industry. because it isn't a case that people are pirating them to back them up, or that they wouldn't have bought the games anyways. Most buy them from pirateers for cut prices. So perhaps this means only 1/3 the actual figure of sales is being lost, but that is still in the region of 1,000,000 units per year in the US.
1,000,000 * $45 isn't pocket change!
People are loosing thier jobs because competition to actually make a game people are willing to actually buy rather than just copy is also hardly what I would call hardly affecting the industry.

This isn't just a slight problem, this is a very MAJOR problem which if something isn't done about; your looking at games only being developed exclusively by established developers.
Nevermind 'what's a bedroom developer' it'll be a case of 'budget developer, what's that?' ... the industry is haveing an extremely hard time supporting budget developers, and oppurtunities for thier games to be published is waning from respectable publishers to those who don't leave development houses with enough cash to continue business.

Just look at The Game Creators. They say that their sales are pretty good for all thier products, but in the same breath we keep hearing they're working on project such-n-such just to keep the money comming in. These are hardly easy time for budget developers and with rising development costs and piracy... the games industry is dieing.


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Jeku
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 09:14
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Quote: "Jeku that does not work, Nintendo.com Insider has a currently growing list of 'suggested' hacking methods and the results that have been come across.
Believe me your method doesn't work, and even to have a chance in hell of working you would require several things done prior to even attempting."


Hmmm well I wonder why I picked up that knowledge from several different sources? I will come back here with some URLs.

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las6
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 11:17
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If you're interested, there's a new article on the subject on avault...
http://www.avault.com/articles/getarticle.asp?name=hardway


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 12:33
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An interesting read. The guy is full of feacal matter mind you.

Quote: "With the impending release of Valve’s Half-Life 2 and id’s Doom 3, we’re looking at the first required hardware upgrade in gaming history."


Now ignore the glaring mistake in that sentance for a second.
Mechwarrior 2 - First Game ever to REQUIRE a 3D Accelerator (1994)
Scarab - First Game ever to REQUIRE a Voodoo Card (1995)
POD - First Game ever to REQUIRE MMX (1995)

I can actually go on listing. Although i know someone is going to point out POD had a non-mmx version, it was released 6months after the MMX version. Also the current Mechwarrior 2 you can buy is DirectX 3.0 minimum because they remade it for Windows 95.
Probably because the DOS version required the manufacturers card it was sold with (most likely was Videologic Apocolypse3d)

...

however back to the most glaring mistake.
HL2 requires DirectX7, 16MB Direct3D card & 700MHz Processor (someone should've told me my old system is SOTA )
Doom3 require TnL Hardware (Geforce2 or better) & 500MHz Processor.

I'm not sure when the last time this dude upgraded his system, but he REALLY needs to get with the times.
Further more these games even if they did require shaders (the don't but if they did) then currently the most common gamer graphics card is a Geforce FX 5200 (yeah that actually stunned me to!)
the most common new user graphics card is a Radeon 8500/9200 ... so either way most people have a Shader capable card nowadays. lol

This guy is really on the ball
but you have to read on, trust me it gets better... ALOT better hehee


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Van B
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 12:57
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I rarely buy PC games, and when I do they tend to be a couple of years old because I simply don't have the PC to run modern games. With the XBox and games like Halo, and Doom3 & HL2 comming out too people are accepting that FPS games can be fun on a console. FPS games were always the PC's major advantage as a gaming machine, now it's MMORPG's but the first big XBox Live MMORPG could change that. If I'm playing a game on my PC that isn't one of my own creations then it's most likely on an emulator (STeem is a fantastic piece of software).


It's not necesserily a bad thing for us though, people will always want PC's and games to play on them - the less people producing commercial PC games means more PC gamers looking at indi developers for their fix. We could be left with a really healthy indi scene if things keep deteriorating like they are.


Van-B


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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 19:25
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I didn't bother reading this thread. ) The industry is getting to a really laughable state. Development times are so disproportionate to the return, it's virtually unattainable already. No wonder we see the rapid cycle of dev houses start up, then die. The last thing in the world I would want to do today, is either start up a game development house, or work at (new) one .. You'd be better off at McDonalds...

It does create some small opportunity for us though. So Perhaps we should thank them for taking so long

Kevin Picone
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GameMaker Jason
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 20:12
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I really hope the gaming industry can stop the majority of hackers quite soon becuase if they don't game development will slowly die.

http://www.freewebs.com/jason_lovett/ My Games Website
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zircher
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 20:39
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In my opinion...

Trying to count pirates as customers and lost revenue is like counting cases of vapourware. You're a fool for even trying. Software piracy might make for nifty headlines and a good excuse, but it only has an impact where rampant piracy is a cultural problem.
--
TAZ

Game Beavers
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Ian T
22
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Joined: 12th Sep 2002
Location: Around
Posted: 23rd Apr 2004 21:30
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Quote: "I really hope the gaming industry can stop the majority of hackers quite soon becuase if they don't game development will slowly die. "


Nonsense, sorry.

First of all, hackers are basically unrelated to the gaming industry. Hacks only come in as cheats in games, and that hardly damages sales. Crackers aren't involved either. It's pirates that are damaging the industry, and for reasons I already posted above, it is never going to kill it.

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GameMaker Jason
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Joined: 22nd Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posted: 24th Apr 2004 00:15
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Yeah i meant pivates

http://www.freewebs.com/jason_lovett/ My Games Website
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Kevin Picone
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Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posted: 24th Apr 2004 00:36 Edited at: 24th Apr 2004 05:11
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Mouse:

Quote: "Crackers aren't involved either"


erm, so who do you think rips the protection schemes then, Santa ?..

Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
Play Nice! Play Basic
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empty
22
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Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 24th Apr 2004 01:11
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Quote: "The last thing in the world I would want to do today, is either start up a game development house, or work at (new) one"

Indeed. Small game dev companies and even "bigger" publishers die if one single title sells less copies than expected. Jowood's last straw, for example, was Gothic II. If that game had flopped, they would have been gone by now.

Play Nice! Play Basic!
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