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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] By By ATI

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Mentor
22
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Posted: 28th Apr 2004 22:39
so I bought this new computer and the video card was a top of the range ATI, before I had used Nvidia and always been happy with em, but I had no brand bias, a fast card is a fast card and as long as it works well enough then thats fine by me, but this ATI card don`t like shaders, even after the latest drivers it crashes in shader intensive scenes in FarCry, the picture looks "unrealistic" in places (almost 2d if you get my drift) and UT2004 crashes it as well on certain levels with lots of shaders, loaded both games onto the other PC for comparison (FX5200 ultra) and in the same levels it doesn`t crash (just slow .. naturaly) and Farcry looks much better, so next time I am in town I am getting a high end FX card, and the ATI, I am gonna take it to work and introduce it to Mr 30ton press , I never had a video card crash on me before, and it ain`t gonna happen again, (now converted to a confirmed Nvidia fanboy )

Mentor.

PC1: P4 hyperthreading 3ghz, 1gig mem, 2x160gig hd`s, ATI radeon 9800 pro gfx, 6 way surround sound, PC2: AMD 1.2ghz, 512mb ram, FX5200 ultra gfx, stereo 16 bit soundblaster, ups.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 28th Apr 2004 22:46
What ATI card did you have ?


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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 28th Apr 2004 22:49
what ATI was it? How do you know it was High end?


BTW, If you don't want it, Ill buy it off of you- just tell me what model it is...

Amist the Blue Skies...
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 00:29
well I could say ATI Radeon 9800 pro or you could move your eyes down a bit to my sig , I make it a principle never to sell anything I wouldn`t use myself, plus if you fried your mobo swapping in the card or something then you would never be sure but what it was a dud card that killed your PC or something like that, so I wouldn`t pass it on to anyone just to protect myself at the least (but I will take piccys of the "pressing" when it happens and put em up on the net )

Mentor

PC1: P4 hyperthreading 3ghz, 1gig mem, 2x160gig hd`s, ATI radeon 9800 pro gfx, 6 way surround sound, PC2: AMD 1.2ghz, 512mb ram, FX5200 ultra gfx, stereo 16 bit soundblaster, ups.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 00:34
may wanna wait around a bit for PCI Express. Lowest end cards will double the pipeline of 8xAGP - and yes that's in both directions, simultaneously.


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 00:42
well i could say something, but i think i'm just gonna sit here smugly smile.
I've often wondered which Rich and Lee prefer, because apart from myself these are the only other 2 people on the forums that I know of who have both Radeon 9800 Pro and Geforce FX 5900 Ultra to compare the two.

Pretty sure that Lee prefers his Geforce, and last competition Rich used his Geforce to judge the entires... I know these guys would never get into a whole debate over which card is better or whatever; but this is the trend I see with people who have both cards, they tend to prefer to use thier Geforce over the Radeon counterpart.

There is more to graphics cards than which can push the most polys/second ... that said each incarnation of the Forceware drivers are truely pushing the boundries of the power of these cards.

3D Mark '03 v440 (default benchmark settings)
FX 5200 Std 64MB AGP 4x (64MB CACHED) | PENTIUM III 600 MHz | 256MB 133MHz
44.04 - 850
53.23 - 1,100
56.64 - 1,400
60.84 - 1,700

These drivers have all been released within the past 8months...
the speed increase of the FX-Series across the board is more than impressive.
We're talking a 200% increase from the first FX drivers, now that is beyond impressive!


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Grismald
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 00:57
well, raven, that can also mean that the drivers were really badly optimized at the start!


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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 01:06 Edited at: 29th Apr 2004 01:07
Quote: " make it a principle never to sell anything I wouldn`t use myself,"


Ok, can you GIVE it to me, Ill pay shipping

p.s. Im serious id like to have it; Ill pay for it as well

Amist the Blue Skies...
Ian T
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 01:33 Edited at: 29th Apr 2004 01:35
Quote: "well i could say something, but i think i'm just gonna sit here smugly smile."


The fault could easily lie in the CPU, the drivers (rarely are they properly updated), or early versions of the games mentioned, as you well know Raven. And there are certainly enough horror stories about the failings of nVidia cards all over the place, ranging from the ridiculously loud fans to the 'shortcuts' the drivers have taken here and there to get better frame rates at the expense of quality.

Edit-- I'd buy it too

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 02:33 Edited at: 29th Apr 2004 02:34
Normaly drivers are unoptimised and you can expect between 10-25% increase in speed overtime.
And with a brand new chipset, yes this could even stretch to around 40% ... which all props to NVIDIA if you notice the gap between 44.04 and 53.23 is pretty close.
Infact the first FX capable driver was 42.53 which was only around 25 points less than the 44.04;

You add to this the FX 5200's speed when released was approx. what you would expect for the technical specs.
Pound for pound it could out perform the Radeon 8500 and kept up with the 9000.

Both have kept very evan in speed terms until the last 2 released of the drivers... more than just a few optimisations have been happening. Features on the FX GPUs have been unlocked, rumour is we will finally have the floating point unit which for some reason has been overlooked leaving all operations upto the Integer Unit.
This is why the FX have been so slow against the Radeons in Pixel 2.0 tests in DirectX; It shows that NVIDIA are finally getting these card to live upto technical specifications

and to be honest, i can always buy a new FAN and live with graphical glitches (which actually i've NEVER seen on any of my FX, i've only seen screenshots from anti-nvidia people outlining it) if it ment the game ACTUALLY ran.

sorry but i think that is a very fair trade any day of the week.
alot of people stay silent about Radeon bugs and glitches because it is like "the" card.
whereas NVIDIA are a big target to hit.

But if you search this forum you can find more people complaining about Radeon problems particularly with thier 9k-Series cards than any other card.

This is all just like Microsoft vs Red Hat really...
Microsoft have a hacker problem, everyone is "Windows Suck!"
if Red Hat have a hacker problem, everyone is "OMG! The person who did this should be shot!"

quite frankly this whole double standard crap really pisses me off.


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DarkSin
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 06:41
I'm using a radeon 9200 and I just love it . Personaly I have no hatred for Nvidia, infact I use to only buy there gforce cards. But so far radeon cards have done really well for me and have so far supported everything I ask of it (and im a hardcore gamer). So untill I see something that catches my eye from the Nvidia line, its ati for me.

P.S. Not tring to hert any particular group but it does seem like the Nvidia heavy users whine allot more about stuff then the radeon group... though ill admit they both have there 'fanboys'.


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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 10:40
Perhaps its a dodgy card - try exchanging it...


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The Big Babou
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 12:04 Edited at: 29th Apr 2004 12:05
@ Mentor

I beg you to consider not your graphics card to be the reason for crashing your computer. I had random crashes when i built my computer two years ago, later it turned out that i had placed my memory in bank 4 instead of bank 1, i changed that and since then i had no problems anymore. And i've a radeon 8500.

@ Raven

Quote: "You add to this the FX 5200's speed when released was approx. what you would expect for the technical specs.
Pound for pound it could out perform the Radeon 8500 and kept up with the 9000.
"


Again you proof how little you know about video cards. The radeon 8500 is faster than a radeon 9000. Because of this ATI built the Radeon 9100, which is exactly the same as the radeon 8500, except it has the full stream feature activated.
And the biggest problem i had with my radeon was a flickering in battlefield 1942. but as ATI releases drivers every month, it was fixed quickly.

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las6
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 15:42 Edited at: 29th Apr 2004 15:45
Hahaha. FX5200 looking as good as 9800 pro ... yeah right.
I'd send the gfx card back to where-ever you bought that thing... or possibly the whole comp. Sounds dodgy to me. But you guys sure are ready to "switch sides" and blame the gfx card for every problem. Seen this before.
last time a guy complained about 9800 xt, I think.. so he swore he'd get a 5950. It was even worse. (didn't work at all).

Quote: "We're talking a 200% increase from the first FX drivers, now that is beyond impressive!"


yeah, it's often called "cheating".

Have you seen how bad the image quality is on FX cards, all thanks to the driver optimizations. Just compare the Current image quality to Any radeon 9k series card or 6800.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 16:15
this type of thing never ends. I remember not too long ago ATI was on the radar but was merely an insignificant blip, and it was 3dfx stomping all over nvidia. I was a diehard 3dfx user but when they went tits-up and nvidia bought out there technology I switched to nvidia.


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 16:44
Quote: "Have you seen how bad the image quality is on FX cards"

No - it seems very good for me.


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DVader
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 16:47
Well, from what I have heard the new Geforce 6800 Ultra kicks everythings ass anyway. Making my poor olf 5900 ultra look slow now... That is until ATI release their next card, which I am sure will be similar in speed to the new Geforce. Oh and Power VR may make a comeback soon too. I heard they are making a board for sega arcade games and may release a PC version.
Izzy545
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 20:25
Yea, there is no need for flame wars about this. Right now, with the 6800 Ultra, it looks like NVidia is in the lead, but we all know that soon ATI will come out with their next card, and it will probably be as good, or maybe better than NVidias, who knows? Either way, I'll just buy the card that gives me the best performance, forget who made it...
Mentor
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 21:30
Umm! LOL @ those who think the speed of a card has anything to do with the image quality, all I am saying is that the ATI card has had several hardware crashes now in four different programs, I define a hardware crash as in the monitor turns off but the game is still running (shots heard when you press fire etc) or the whole computer locks up, it`s not overheating since I can run games for ages with no problem, just newer games with lotsa shaders have problems, the whole machine is rock solid as long as you avoid more modern games, and I certainly don`t want doom III spoilt by a iffy video card.
all the memory slots are full now, with the correct speed ram, so that isn`t the issue, I just swapped in a fx5900 (all I could get localy) and now all the levels in all the games run fine with no crashes and better still I don`t get that weird shuffleing of the (tft) screen I got when the system booted with the ATI, I dare say the card is faulty even, but since I have added more hardware to this thing than it came with I rather suspect they will be screaming about invalidating the warranty if I try to return the card, besides, it`s a rave filling in forms and waiting for the callout guy etc.
I will say one thing about the FX card, it`s markedly noisier, I must download the latest drivers sometime as well, I suggest the guy who thinks the FX cards have rotten picture quality gets his eyes tested, I have (since I wear glasses all the time), mine are just fine, FX looks better IMO, and las6 seems to have some problem with me complaining about a card that doesn`t work right, well?...it doesn`t work right!, so I don`t want it!, bin fodder IMO, live with it!
this was NOT an anti ATI post, I could have saved myself £179 if the ATI worked right, I wanted it to be ok, maybe other ATI cards are wonderful and I got the teabreak model, but I aint spending a truckload of money on the chance that the next one will be better, FX cards are known quantity to me, if in doubt then go for what you know, I spent a week checking and trying everything including flashing the MOBO bios before deciding the ATI was a dud, whatever the reason it crashes and the FX doesn`t, maybe the ATI is faulty, but it`s the first time I have had a card that was only partialy faulty, anyway, it has no place in the Mentor scheme of things computerised, I don`t want some half working card, so out it goes.

Mentor.

PC1: P4 hyperthreading 3ghz, 1gig mem, 2x160gig hd`s, ATI radeon 9800 pro gfx, 6 way surround sound, PC2: AMD 1.2ghz, 512mb ram, FX5200 ultra gfx, stereo 16 bit soundblaster, ups.
HZence
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 21:43
Odd. I have a Radeon 9800 Pro and I have absolutely no problems whatsoever.

It very well maybe a hardware conflict. Check your motherboard.


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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 21:52 Edited at: 29th Apr 2004 21:54
Quote: " I don`t want some half working card, so out it goes."


Like I said, might as well give it to me; Don't let anything go to waste (esp. a 9800)

I have an old computer that needs a new video card. The one that is in it now only has 4 mb of Video Memory.

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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 22:10
It would be very, very foolish to waste a good 9800 like that. It's probaly just an innocent hardware conflict making it perform badly. You could sell it for over $100 on Ebay.

TheAbomb12
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Posted: 29th Apr 2004 22:47
or you can sell it to me (sorry if this is getting annoying, but I really need a new video card for my other computer)

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HZence
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Posted: 30th Apr 2004 02:40
Quote: "You could sell it for over $100 on Ebay"


My brand new Radeon costed over $200.

Yeah, I don't recommend selling it. I can almost guarantee it's either a hardware conflict or just a faulty card.


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Mentor
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Posted: 30th Apr 2004 22:33
just for anyone interested, no hardware conflicts here, I have configured enough machines in 30 odd years to know the classic pitfalls, further swapouts with a mate who talked me into it (he thought it might be a bargain) and then tests with my other machine confirm the card is faulty, we tried several drivers from past coverdisks and after further tests it seems to crash when you are close to something (as in a texture that fills the screen) or moving fast close to something with one large texture on it like a cliff or wall, and on an all black or white screen you can see faint bands running across the screen on all the machines (though that may not be related), it`s not just shaders as I thought, I just noticed that since it was a shader effect (bumpmap etc) filling the screen on several of the crashes, both my PC`s and my mates new-ish one are stable and run stuff just fine, so it looks like the card was a teabreak model, selling it on E-bay would be immoral since I know it is faulty, anyway, it`s now in two halves at the bottom of a blue wheelie bin in Lincolnshire, so no more pestering please, it was faulty and hence of no use to anybody, you can get a new ATI or FX card, they are cheap enough nowdays, my 1st 4mb 3DFX cost me nearly £200 back when £200 could buy you a nice house (well .. almost..it was 2 weeks wages to me) LOL, there would be no point in buying a faulty card anyway, your better off with something cheaper that works than something "awesome" that doesn`t.

Mentor.

PC1: P4 hyperthreading 3ghz, 1gig mem, 2x160gig hd`s, ATI radeon 9800 pro gfx, 6 way surround sound, PC2: AMD 1.2ghz, 512mb ram, FX5200 ultra gfx, stereo 16 bit soundblaster, ups.
Gery
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Posted: 30th Apr 2004 23:43
i have MSI GeForce5200 280/401 Mhz
And i have the same problem.
In windows98 some games are crashig... The game goes 1-2 mins, and crush - but only games that using shaders.

In XP i have no problem....

And my FX render 8 textures in single pass, but i tought, the fx-s is rendering 4... Wtf?

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HZence
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Posted: 1st May 2004 04:22
@Mentor: Great. Now that you know it was a faulty card, stop blaming ATI...


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Mentor
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Posted: 1st May 2004 13:39
DUH! where did I "blame" ATI?, it was an ATI card that was playing up .. oh just a mo, time to edit my posts , I would have mentioned the problem had it been SiS, Nvidia, Intel Extreme (roflmao), or a Voodoo, I just thought some people may be interested to find that just because something costs a lot doesn`t mean it has godlike abilities like being ablr to repair itself, or that the price means it will be any more reliable than a cheaper card, as a matter of fact, since the high end cards run faster and hotter than the cheap cards it may well be that they don`t last as long, just thought I would mention it.

Mentor.

PC1: P4 hyperthreading 3ghz, 1gig mem, 2x160gig hd`s, Nvidia FX5900 gfx, 6 way surround sound, PC2: AMD 1.2ghz, 512mb ram, FX5200 ultra gfx, stereo 16 bit soundblaster, ups.
las6
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Posted: 1st May 2004 13:50
uh. Dud card is Dud card, no matter if it's and ATI card or a High-End card. But don't go telling me that your FX5200 is better than that. Cos it's not, and we all know it.
Just because you had bad luck doesn't mean that you have to give bad advices.


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st May 2004 18:43
The cards inability to work is a just a problem with transistors often being dude; it is rarely anything to do with the VPU/GPU.
So there isn't much chance of the rendering pipeline being affected to the point where the Radeon pushes out dud pixels.
The graphical glitchs if that was the case would be system wide, not localised to games.

There is a HUGE double standard when it comes to cards online;
ATI = 'You have a problem then the card is a dud, drivers are too old or user error.'
Geforce = 'You have a problem then obviously Geforce are crap cards and you should buy Radeon.'

Look I know I'm a Geforce fan, but what I see in benchmarks constantly is very little difference between the cards; Sometimes Radeon is better sometimes Geforce is...
From an artists POV the Picture Quality on the Geforce (without FSAA) is far superior; You cannot pit the FSAA's against each other because they are better on different tasks.
Driver-wise however, Radeon's you must constantly keep updating just to make sure games work how they should; Geforce on the other hand will work with anything, all the drivers do is improve quality and speed.

That IS how it should be. a Driver isn't something for your manufacturer to hack and cheat thier way to the top, but something which provides a UNIVERSALLY stable platform which all games can use.

What really pisses me off about the whole double standard issue is the whole 3DMark '03 thing.
NVIDIA were 'caught' tweaking thier drivers, the changes were purely superficial graphical quality drops (which actually were only aimed at the 5800) and as such everyone has pinned them as cheaters.

Thing is though ATI have not only been caught doing the same bloody thing, but they've also been caught using thier own version of DirectX which actually optimises the pipeline to thier cards; specifically lowers quality to certain aspects of the cards in order to fit what would've taken 128bit operations to 96bit operations... with the extra 32bit they use this to catch stack overflow allowing them to squeeze an ounze more speed.

Sure you could deep this is ingenius, if it wasn't against the Agreement you sign in order to develop drivers. Developers are given fully open versions of these API and as such they have access to alter it but they're not allowed to.
Yet when this was discovered during the whole Half-Life2 *leak* everyone just simply dismissed it or claimed that ATI were doing exactly the right thing.

What peeves me off about the Geforce series is that the drivers for it are like 'lite' versions STILL. We have many features of the cards STILL to be exposed, also there is a weird banding thing with colour blending as although it is using 128bit Colour for some reason it is only being calculated as 16bit Colour Space using the Integer rather than Floating Point Unit... Technically the FX-Series on paper can outperform the Radeon; hell even in OpenGL they're capable of pushing the envelope alot further, as the NV30 (5800) is capable of keeping up with the R320 (9800); The same cards that have a 2/3 to 1/2 speed difference in DirectX.

And that's if the speed was that different to matter at the top end; but the 9800 vs 5950 is pretty even. And that gap closes each driver as the main speed difference between the cards is the Pixel Shader 2.0 speed; which the drivers are improving DRAMATICALLY at the moment.


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David T
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Posted: 1st May 2004 21:16
Quote: "That big ass speech coming from somebody that thinks an athlon xp3200+ runs at 2.7ghz... rofl"


My 2800+ runs at 2.3ghz so that's no so far fetched.

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Posted: 1st May 2004 21:21
Problem solved. Thread locked.


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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 1st May 2004 21:22
it is?

Was Mr X
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