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3 Dimensional Chat / Comments on these models please....Vegeta,anyone?

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actarus
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Posted: 11th Dec 2002 16:21
Hi,

If anyone can give critique on these models I would greatly appreciate it so I can work on the errors I made.

Raven:I'm sure you have good tips for finger animations and trueSpace2 renderings.

Sorry for the inconvenient link to (cough)RGT(cough).

My models here....
Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
Incandescant
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Posted: 11th Dec 2002 21:19
.....sweeet......
i especially like the devil, how long you been modelling?

System: Athlon TBird 800Mhz, 320MB RAM, GeForce 2MX440, DX8.1
actarus
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Posted: 11th Dec 2002 21:25
An answer?....(Holding on sarcasms)....

Many thanks,I've been modeling for about 3 years.

The DeviL is a Truespace2 render and I must say it's an excellent software especially for the price(free).

Hope to hear some more,my ego needs it. lmao

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Incandescant
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Posted: 11th Dec 2002 22:07
i couldn't offer much criticism and the bits I could offer have already been mentioned on RGT suffice to say theyre good models and I can't wait to see them textured

System: Athlon TBird 800Mhz, 320MB RAM, GeForce 2MX440, DX8.1
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Dec 2002 03:53
hehee well we'll forgive you this time
ya know you can always actually just link the attachments.

i checked these out earlier today, but wasn't sure if i was to comment or not - alot of people have been exploding at me

well i'll cover the guy you originally posted, the mesh on the whole is pretty good. that said, there is a good amount of tweaking that can be done to give its shape a more perspecitive veiw.

the shoulders i'd just grab all of vertex that make it out to be quite sphereical and just scale them until they flow a little more. now from the side the guys proportions are quite amazing, very nice ... however from the front he appears to loose it around the abs to accomidate for the arms being close.
Them being so buched close makes him appear to have an abnormal abs section - could fit a 12pack in there hehee
so you may want to grab from just below the vertex level with the elbows and just widen him out, put some meat on dem bones

from that the mesh will seems a little disproportionate due to the edges, and i know that it'll take a while - but go around the mesh and turn the faces to try and smooth everything out to make the mesh as smooth as possible with as little points as possible
Then after you do that, it might seem a little non sensical but then focus on the joints, make sure the larger stretching areas have a Quad on the actual pivot point with the edge going across so that it wont fold when the joint does ... but you want the opposite side and possible side to fold with it.
So for the knees say, you'd make the front edge quad going vertical and the back going horizontal. As the sides shouldn't bend they also should try to stay away from being horizontal if possible

phew! hehee i know there are other models, but these are kinda general tips for whenever you create them

as it looks like milkshape your working in... to animate the fingers well you'll need 3 joints and 2 bones per finger - now as finger have to bend 90° nicely its best to have them in more of a stack formation
[][][] kinda setup
^-^-^ then you place the joints at the top rear edge of each stack as this is the best pivot point.
What you do from there is the vertex below them in the fingers plus the next vertex in the line attach to that bone, and continue like that... if you looked at it from the side would appear that diagonally each joint has the vertex selected. this gives the best range of motion for the fingers (a tip for anyone who does this in trueSpace 4+ then set the end two joints to single pivot allows you not to make them look freaky by accident hehee)
oh and as most of the time your fingers will never be striaght - and this actually goes for general animating, don't fall into the trap of making the skeleton to fit within the model, but once you finish editing move the mesh into a default position and create a skeleton that rests completely square for everything. The best tip for this is to use the HL Biped skeleton and edit in the extras you require.
without moving it you attach it, i know it'll look weird to animate from something not actually in the right place but it does actually make it alot easier until you get better with animating mesh.

I liked the Solider (normal) quite nice, but the joints my need attention before animating and the lower portions of the legs needs to be a little straighter down
And the arms could do with a little width attention, perhap a little bulkier but really a nice model.

the futuristic solider is quite cool, nice and low polygon ... think perhaps he'd be better with a single digit and the other three fingers made into a single part like a glove.
I do like the hands nothing against them, just really look weird on low polygon models.
something i'd give him are muscles rather than just lengths for arms - they seems a little one the boxy side

I like the devil render... i've missed seeing the trueSpace rendering action for others around here.
about the only thing i can really say about the render engine is right-click for the options menu because there are ALOT of them, but still very easi to use.

if you would like to know a particular rendering method then just ask.
trueSpace2 was before IK was introduced an everything was still mostly hierachy based which you find the glueing tools quite handy as there is no messing about you can glue something as a sibling, parent or child in one go

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
BOC4J
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Posted: 12th Dec 2002 11:15
looking pretty good, i would tuck in the verices down at the bottom of the shirt if - i think they are sticking out just a tad too much

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Dec 2002 12:02
hehee hope i didn't scare ya mate with the long post. it is all good - just a few pointers and tweaks here and there

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actarus
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Posted: 12th Dec 2002 14:14
hehe don't worry.

Hopefully,I'll do everything you told me

What do you reckon is better for low-polygon hands?I know my models would drop a good 200 polygons if I replaced them with something lower and simulating fingers...Still,I don't find them that much high,they're 160 each and them fingers are rotated boxes..

The DeviL render shows how TS is powerful...This must've been my first material ever created in it,it's soooo easy

I'm glad you like them.

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Hilmi2k
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Posted: 12th Dec 2002 20:41
Personaly, I am not happy with true space because I am old School 3D.

I learned on 3D studio release 3 and 4. I am used to the interface and I hate working in one window.

I am looking for something with simillar interface to 3DS4 and as much acuracy and control any suggestions?

actarus
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Posted: 12th Dec 2002 21:02
Maya!

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 13th Dec 2002 01:05
Actarus - well done these are really good, some of the nicest pre 1000 poly models I've seen. The guy looks perfect to me from the side, but slightly too thin from the front. The shoulders are too big but thats been mentioned. Minor gripes aside these are better than I can currently do... I'm working on it tho, and getting close.

Well done that man

* If the apocalypse comes, email me *
Epidemicz
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Posted: 13th Dec 2002 02:45
Sweet, I likes -> especially the devil heheh.

I am the very disease you pretend to be.
actarus
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Posted: 13th Dec 2002 03:11
Thanks looking forward to texture those and hopefully link them on the boards directly...(not from RGT though)

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Hilmi2k
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Posted: 13th Dec 2002 11:51
Ohh, sorry, I forgot to tell you that I was looking for something within same price range as truespace... I hardly think my skills merit spending huge amounts of money on maya

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Dec 2002 12:24
okay i feel i have got enough of me back here to comment agin ;d

this made me lauhg > old school 3d cause truepsace and lightwav are as old shcool you get

so yeah truepsace rendering is good speical as it is old
i think raytraceing is very good too for it
so for hansd i qas think that you think abot what you want to do like so if for gun pr than you no need fingres just one so like for fight game you want more finhers so you have hand ;d

have fun

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Van B
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Posted: 13th Dec 2002 12:37
The thing is, as soon as you see a model in a game with actual fingers - you notice!. I mean we're so used to seeing blocks of wood for hands that a proper moving hand with individual fingers is a breath of fresh air. Obviously it's not necessary for some game styles, but these guys will no doubt end up holding AK47's etc, and will look great.


Van-B
actarus
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Posted: 13th Dec 2002 13:51
Van-B's right.

I don't like the blocking simmulated hands in many games.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Dec 2002 14:03
lol... well oki i've kinda got my hand eye coordination back, i'm trying to understand what my last post ment.

oki well i'll put this another way, blocky hands oftenly don't look very good. But when you're developing characters you have to take into consideration will the user notice?
If you use a put block, then yeah they will but usually the better thing to do is to develop a hand specifically for that character. Like if you're making a soldier and all he is goingto be doing is either fighting or holding a weapon, then making completely independant fingers is just a waste as they'll never really be seen. So you make a hand which is clutched around a handle, the trigger finger and thumb seperate. If you want to add detail in say max then make each finger then delete the faces that are against each other when in a clenched fist, weld together then chamfer the edges so you get a V for the bumps.
it'll add very few polygons and produce the same effect you want.

The point in low polygon modelling is to actually make sure you only show the detail in the mesh that is essential to the shape - everything is a texture. And it is always better to have a third party developing the texture for this effect, because you can edit the mesh and UV map whilst they keep working so results can be seen basically whilst your working so both can optimise instead of stopping switching programs, deleting areas and such.

Having a good knowlage of how and why to use Shade|Normal Groups and the angles is also suddenly your best friend.
This is because you can emphsis details so less has shade wise has to be done on the texture which will save graphics space

Kinda funny really, because its relative easi to become a decent modeller ... but a game modeller has to sit back and think of FAR more than just making a fantastic end result.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Hilmi2k
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Posted: 13th Dec 2002 23:34
LOL... old as they get? Raven, I am talking dos days.. this program (3D Studio release 4) had trouble working on a Pentium 133 and needed a "fast CPU patch"

I liked the way you worked in 3D studio, you had a window where you would draw lines representing cross sections of a model. From there, you would go to another part of the program and assemble these lines onto a path. The path could also be created in the first part of the program, or it could be a straight line or a circle. as long as you had the same number of vertices on the cross sections, 3D Studio would then assemble these into a single model. This was great for creating models that needed pixel by pixel control of the cross sections, because you could have as many as you wanted.

I noticed truespace has simillar functionality, but its difficult to draw in a screen in prespective.

I had the ability in 3D studio to draw cross sections in corel draw then I could import them to 3D Studio and extrude them. This allowed me to do very fancy arabic caligraphy in 3D.

Sadly, 3D studio goes crazy in my P4 1.8 GHz machine. And it does not even work in windows 2000.

I am looking for a free program with simillar feel. I found maya for free, a learning edition. But I cant find a way to export to a format that works with Dark Basic.

I am willing to pay upto 200 dollars for something that has the same feel as 3D studio.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Dec 2002 15:14
erm... anyone gonna explain this to him?

3D Studio isn't the same as 3D Studio Max, just as it isn't nither are the same as 3D Max.

on this point 3DS Max didn't actually jump to proper Windows intergration until 3.0 which was '96 unless i'm mistaken ... as trueSpace2 was released late 1994, just because something uses DOS doesn't make it older

I'd suggest you goto caligari.com or newtek.com and read up about the history of those products as they both preceed IBM Compatible (x86) machine Cinematic Graphics Development, infact the only thing which would allow "PC" users any sort of 3D Development was through CAD program until late 1992. This was mostly due to technological enhancements... And I'm pretty sure most here won't be able to tell me when Lightwave was first introduce OR its original name

As for $200, there isn't much you're gonna be able to afford 3D wise

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Dec 2002 15:15
oh yeah and I almost forgot to mention in tS2 at the lower-right of the screen there are some buttons with lil windows on them, i'd suggest you check what their functions are

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Raven Vegeta
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Posted: 14th Dec 2002 16:04
Nice
actarus
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Posted: 14th Dec 2002 16:51
-Nice

Was that for me??Thanks anyways.

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Raven Vegeta
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Posted: 14th Dec 2002 19:12
yeah to ur model I liked a lot the way u handled the poly number
Hilmi2k
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Posted: 14th Dec 2002 21:33
lightwave was called video toaster on the amiga... I'm old enough

Hilmi2k
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Posted: 14th Dec 2002 21:35
And I did live through loading programs from audio cassets

Hilmi2k
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Posted: 14th Dec 2002 21:47
Which brings me back to my original question.. I'm not here to argue what is old school and what is new and I never claimed 3D Studio is the same as max.

What I am looking for is 3D Studio style program that will work on windows 2000 and does not cost a bomb. It should make models in a format usable by dark basic or at least a format which can easily be converted to a usable format.

GMax is great, but I cant figure out how to get my results onto db

actarus
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Posted: 14th Dec 2002 22:40
-What I am looking for is 3D Studio style program that will work on windows 2000 and does not cost a bomb.

Yeah but for what aspect do you want a 3d studio-like?

3d studio isn't necessarly the best example for a modeler...HAve you ever heard of Milkshape?That's what I use and I reckon you saw my models. Give it a try...and if you already did,trust give it another one.

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actarus
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Posted: 14th Dec 2002 23:08
BTW:If anyone wants to see an update of my works(Indi's bear) just go there;

Click here.....

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actarus
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Posted: 15th Dec 2002 00:07
Testing
(and holds his head in case GuyS gets mad)



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actarus
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Posted: 15th Dec 2002 00:08
Doh!...Idiot me lmao



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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Dec 2002 00:28
checked out RGT... you want the furr on the ears pretty simple to make
just make a few plains that stick out from where you want the fur at kinda a V from the ear itself from the side, then make an alpha fur thing (^_^)

voila nice jagged furr ears that ingame will look wonderful

the bear looks very nice, just needs to be shaded properly and it'd make a pretty awesome model
possibly might have a few gripes when you want to animate, so add a bone system just to check the mesh before you start textureing

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actarus
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Posted: 15th Dec 2002 00:32
Thanks for the tips...

Yeah I had thought of using this method for the hair...Since Milkshape doesn't allow Edge operations(extrusion in particular)...I'll have a complete wish list for Mete very soon...While most of the features I need are there I'd really like to see a Rotate around selection option.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Dec 2002 01:45
rotate around? ... what do ya mean?
Meta has Edge and Booleans in his own version, but trust me - they ain't pretty, they'll probably be ready once he's finished cleaning up code and wondering what the hell some of the comments mean =)

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actarus
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Posted: 15th Dec 2002 05:58
Rotate view around selection...I find it very annoying to have to separate my meshes to model in the exact center of the workspace because of that single axis rotation.

I hope he'll change that in Milkshape2.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Dec 2002 12:19
Ahh oki, yeah that kinda annoys me alot too

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actarus
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Posted: 15th Dec 2002 15:54
That's why also I'm starting to like TS and it's features...

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Hilmi2k
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Posted: 15th Dec 2002 19:49
I like the models you made. They are very good.

But what I have learned is that the textures make a hell of a difference. If you work hard on a good texture, you might be able to get away with a horrible model. Especialy if your game is fast moving.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Dec 2002 13:39
mwhahaa ... i'll get everyone over to the trueSpace side yet

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Van B
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Posted: 16th Dec 2002 15:30
Nooooooo!!!

I hate TS!!!!

Nah, only joking, TS is pretty cool, although I only have v3 - I got it free with a magazine about a year ago, so I can't complain .

I do prefer quad views though, but that's probably because I studied a lot of technical drawing techniques (plan, elevation, front).


Van-B
P.S. That bear looks great - I hope he makes it into a game .
actarus
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Posted: 16th Dec 2002 15:43
The bear has just been updated with a face texture if anyone wants to see it it's on RGT...Media Showcase section or click HERE......

BTW Van:TS does have the ability to open any number of all view.

also,please can you upload that TS3 somewhere???

I'd make a good use of it,I promess.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Dec 2002 16:53
ya know i kinda wonder about you people
i'll see about downloading tS2 for my laptop and take a few screenies show you guys howto get the technical drawing view

Personally i always prefer'd to have a 4 veiw floating window, and the main window the veiw i was workin on that second ... could just flick with Ctrl, something else i love about trueSpace is if you look in the window bar when you put your mouse over a tool it says the name and shortcut key

Lookin nice Act, not sure what the heck is comming out of his nose
Not sure about the blending between sections of the head, looks kinda like you've done them seperate from each other - ya'll probably have to like blend between the two with a smudge and sharpen then blur
looks good thou

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
actarus
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Posted: 16th Dec 2002 17:00
-Not sure about the blending between sections of the head, looks kinda like you've done them seperate from each other - ya'll probably have to like blend between the two with a smudge and sharpen then blur

nonono...It IS blending perfectly.

It is just two separate groups but once re-welded togetherthey are perfect.

BTW,about TS...This is just what I meant,you can get 4 views or any number anywhere on-screen.

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actarus
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-Lookin nice Act, not sure what the heck is comming out of his nose

Yeah that's supposed to be a glow.lol

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Dec 2002 17:36
lol... be interesting to get him into the game once he's done - would have to think what he could be and how he'd fit in

tS is nice and versitile, quite interestingly so
its far easier to develop machinary with it and CAD style buildings than anything else

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Van B
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Posted: 16th Dec 2002 17:56
Ahh, I see what you mean, most of the TS models I've seen have been Star Wars, bits of engine, or mechs.

Hmmm, I suppose I should take another look.


Van-B
Van B
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Hey Act, I need your email again.

RGT is in maintenance mode.


Van-B
actarus
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Posted: 17th Dec 2002 00:07
Not anymore but here you go...

actarusprocyon@yahoo.com

I'll send you one when I get the first parts...Thanks again.

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Hilmi2k
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Posted: 17th Dec 2002 18:06
Looks good with the face

My weekness has always been textures.

actarus
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It still is mine

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