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Geek Culture / Invisibility cloak invented

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David T
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Posted: 14th Jun 2004 23:20


Now I want one of those.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3791795.stm

Two strings walk into a bar. I'll have a pint says the first$%ASLDJ09920D"$"$D. Excuse my friend says the second, he isn't null terminated.
Kain
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Posted: 14th Jun 2004 23:26
TheAbomb12
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Posted: 14th Jun 2004 23:29
Its been around for awhile, DARPA has been doing alot of R&D...

However its far from being "invisible", its more like an dynamic camo.

Amist the Blue Skies...
David T
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Posted: 14th Jun 2004 23:30
You may want to have a look at this video...

http://projects.star.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/projects/MEDIA/xv/images/bone2.mpg

Some guy holding up a piece of paper which goes through his skin and shows his bones underneath, lol

I was waiting 'til somebody said that it's already been done :p

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Dgamer
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Posted: 14th Jun 2004 23:31
I saw this on Tactical to Practical on History channel. One problem is that liquids can short circuit the cameras. So you can only use it on dry spots.

Putang ina mo
David T
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Posted: 14th Jun 2004 23:32 Edited at: 14th Jun 2004 23:32
You guys don't half like to spoil the party j/k

Two strings walk into a bar. I'll have a pint says the first$%ASLDJ09920D"$"$D. Excuse my friend says the second, he isn't null terminated.
Mattman
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Posted: 14th Jun 2004 23:33
The video looks pretty fake, as his should would be moving at his moved the paper, but somehow they arent, his whole body is static!
Chris K
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Posted: 14th Jun 2004 23:33
It only works from one angle but it's pretty cool. I saw this ages ago (I think it might have been here)

Here's a video:

http://chrisknott.dbspot.com/Games/Invisible.zip
Dgamer
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Posted: 14th Jun 2004 23:34
mattman: Thats not really his skeleton. Apart from that, its real.

Putang ina mo
Chris K
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Posted: 14th Jun 2004 23:35
Quote: "One problem is that liquids can short circuit the cameras"


What do you mean? It's pretty much faked. It's done with projectors, there's nothing particularly clever about the coat.
Dgamer
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Posted: 14th Jun 2004 23:38
I thought I saw on tv that tiny cameras are attached on one side of the coat, and it is displayed on the other side through projectors.

Putang ina mo
Chris K
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Posted: 14th Jun 2004 23:40
No. Otherwise they would show completely different things when the coat ruffled. It's faked with a projector and mirrors, it's still quite clever but it's nothing new.

I'll just try and find the website.

Have a look at the video I posted, it's pretty cool.
Chris K
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hexGEAR
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 00:03
cool, but there will be a lot more ways to misuse it than to use it.

Chris K
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 00:15
Not really, seeing as it only works from one angle and you need to lug around a huge rig of mirrors and projectors.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 02:11
Its pretty clever really - whilst it wont render things totally invisible (you would probably have to alter the molecular structure for that), it will render objects much harder to view.


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Eric T
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 02:22
that cloak is a stalkers dream...lol

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Jimmy
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 02:31
Oh so YOU were the blob near the mailbox. Bad Eric.

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andrew11
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 02:39
That video is totally fake. There is no way (Currently atleast) to see INSIDE objects. It would have to be XRay or similar, which requires large machines, and Is dangerous in large doses.

The cloak, as shown in the news article, however, may be true. It is probably possible. Think about it, millions of cameras in a material on one side of your body, and then small pixels on the other side. What you would be doing is seeing whats on the other side. You see the background, not inside the object.


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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 02:40
I would use it to sneak into the movies.

Amist the Blue Skies...
andrew11
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 03:13
People would sit on you then!


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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 03:15
hopefully it's a girl

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andrew11
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 03:15
LOL


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Zenincanin 14
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 04:48
LOL Eric!

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Night Giant
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 06:49
i saw the cloak thing several years ago, back then it was still very much in design stage. iirc the theory behind it is it wraps the light around to your other side and basically paints one side of you with the light from the other side. kind of like the stuff in mgs that psycho mantis wears. i wonder if it actually real now though.

oh, wow. insignificantpunks.cjb.net.
no: website for progs yet.
flibX0r
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 13:07
@andrew11

Quote: "The cloak, as shown in the news article, however, may be true. It is probably possible. Think about it, millions of cameras in a material on one side of your body, and then small pixels on the other side. What you would be doing is seeing whats on the other side. You see the background, not inside the object."


You didn't actually read it did you? It projects the image onto the coat with a projector, and its made of this cool reflective stuf to make it seem like the person isn't there. No millions of cameras.

Dave J
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 14:03
Yeah, I remember the original video that Chris posted which makes me think that this was posted on here before, a different article though and the video Chris Knott uploaded. So yeah, I guess this invisible thing HAS been posted but this is a different video and article which makes it 'ok' in my eyes.


Quote: "That video is totally fake. There is no way (Currently atleast) to see INSIDE objects. It would have to be XRay or similar, which requires large machines, and Is dangerous in large doses."


Uhhh, it's not his actual skeleton, there's one behind him, it's supposed to show that you can see through him. The skeleton thing was just a joke sort of thing.


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Chris K
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 15:42
It could never be used in real life because it only works from one direction.

It's just a projector and a coat. The only clever thing is how only the coat shows up the projection.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 16:52
i believe that was actually explained on the BBC site, or didn't anyone check it?
that said the British Military in association with Oxford University have been working on a Chameleon Camoflage Suit; It is extremely ingenius to.

Some guys did an extensive study on something most would probably find unlikely to be camoflaged; butterflies, or more accurately, thier wings.
They found that butterflies have a weave of coloured layers which allows them to blend in with a range of colours that you find within thier natural habitate. There was also a catalyst layer of some fluid which allows the wings to change colour depending on the lights i/o colour.

Saw it on discovery a while ago, and it was quite amazing; as it doesn't make the person appear invisible, but it did render thier clothes to blend in with the background they were against. As even the folds in thier shirts would be reflecting and such light; the illusion would be more complete, especially as the colour/patterns being created were from those around the soldier so looking natural.

not sure how far into development they are though

Chris K
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 21:09
Any invisibility suit would only work from one direction.

Does that one just change to a colour that is around it?
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 21:16
how do you figure that Chris?
if they could figure out a way of bending light like gravitational forces can, then really rather than making the suit reflect they could just make it negotiate the suit.

or they could create it to phase sync anything inside the jacket; so that it is around 90deg from colour perception ranges - remember humans can only see a small bandwidth of colour, you shift the phase of colour out of that range and although you could see using therma goggles or such you wouldn't be able to see with your eye and it would essencially disappear; or atleast shimmer like a refracted plane of glass.

But as i said the one using the 'Butterfly' technology just blends colours with it's background rather than projecting what is through it; so you can't disappear but if someone isn't paying attention or at long range they're not going to see you.

so more adaptive camoflage rather than invisibility (which i said in the first place)

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 21:17
Quote: "Any invisibility suit would only work from one direction.
"


I actually doubt that your comment is true. You could have cameras on all sides if they were small.

David T
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 21:20
I think a real use for this would be one way walls etc. or a hidden CCTV camera, with a picture of the wall behind it projected onto it - think about it!

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Chris K
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 22:05
Quote: "You could have cameras on all sides if they were small."


I doesn't matter how small they are. You will end up with a scenario like this:

Imagine a sphere is covered in the invisibility cloak:


From the front or back it would be fine because you would see all blue or all green but from the sides you wouldn't see red or yellow, like you should, you would see half green, half blue.

This would also be the problem with that camoflague - so I'm intrigued as to how that would work. Can you find the link to that Raven?

Bending light rays would need colossal gravity. As in, more than the earth's - which is impossible. And even if it was possible it would suck everything around it in like a black hole.
David T
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 22:37
The fact is there's no cameras, so that's not going to be a problem!

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 22:47 Edited at: 15th Jun 2004 22:50
Chris you've obviously skipped quite a few physics lessons...
Ever noticed that when it is hot the steam that rises cause light to warp and bend making the object radiating the heat appear to shimmer; this can also be seen through smoke, haze and flames that are burning at over 1500c

Gravity itself is a by-product of something else entirely, and although 'Black Holes' are believed to have this in extreme ammounts and be inescapeable; there are different degrees of Single Vector Quantum Points (Quantum Singularities/Black Holes) ; the same resulting light bending forces can be experience within pulsars which are another 'evolution' of a dead star (as black holes are only created under very certain conditions) ... a pulsar works by pushing out materials in streams to the surrounding area rather than condensing materials. The stream are what bend light in the gravity wells; the gravity of the pulsar keeps the spit out material spinning which eventually then becomes a new star again.

You can come to the same balance with gravity and even counteract it's effects much in the same way that you can counteract the effects of pressure. Ofcourse once the pressure gets too much there is little you can do, because there is only so much certain materials can take... however i was just giving it as an example.

As for the problem you explain; i'm sorry but i don't understand at all what the hell your on about. Anyone who understands Visual Polytechnics would know that at angles what you'd actually see would be the sides only, not the front and back.

In order for only the front and back to be visible in the situation you described you would have to be using Optical Cables... but that said much in the same way you can counteract this effect; The entire point in having layers in the camoflage jacket is so that you have a layer of one colour + reflection/reflection layer + another colour, etc...
This way based on the colour that comes in = the colour that goes out and the colour that comes in is based at angle so the jackets would be bouncing light from where whever you want depending on the input tragetory

i mean, geez until you actually know enough about this stuff i think you should sit down and shut up.

[edit-]
oh and if you again read the report and the site on the jacket that explains the reflection material you'll understand more on how it all works because they had to counteract the flat effect of the image.

Remember these are two TOTALLY different methods; the Jacket simply displays projected images in 3D.
The Camojacket reacts to light and alters it's colour to suit.

If you look at a CD/DVD you can get an idea on how the Camo jacket works.

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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 22:47
The best 'invisibilty' suit i've seen was very simple, but it only worked when the person stood still. It was simply a curved mirror that went aruond the person, it reflected everything around it back to the person on the other end. Very hard to spot, but it completely messed up once you started moving - maybe it'd be better to use it to hide tanks that are reloading, or planes that are packed up for the night.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 15th Jun 2004 23:10
You can bend light with optic fibres. Just weave them between each other. You can also put images on tiny pyramids like those pictures that you get in cereals. That's another way to do it.

Quote: "The fact is there's no cameras, so that's not going to be a problem."


We are talking about a theoretical suit, with cameras. Even the one in the link could be used with a camera.

Chris K
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Posted: 16th Jun 2004 00:41
Quote: "Ever noticed that when it is hot the steam that rises cause light to warp and bend making the object radiating the heat appear to shimmer"


Yes. That's due to light entering another material and being refracted because it moves at a different speed.

Quote: "Gravity itself is a by-product of something else entirely"


What? No it isn't. It's one of the fundamental forces, thought to be caused by the graviton.

There is no way of get light to bend around an object and then bend back onto it's original course. Gravity needed to move a photon is huge. You can't "counter-act the effects of gravity" without an equal force in the opposite direction, and that would mean even more energy.

Whatever, none of that matters.

The point is this: if you had an invisibility cloak, it would never work from more than one specific angle.

What color would a sphere made of the special material (like the coat you mentioned) be in a room with four different coloured walls.

Please draw a picture like I did showing what colours each side would be.
David T
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Posted: 16th Jun 2004 00:47
I think Raven's example of steam was showing that light rays can be bent, not that gravity was doing it.

Here's an article I found on bending light.

http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s6-03/6-03.htm

The fact is that light can be harness nad made to change direction by gravity - in a black hole the gravity is strong enough to not let even light escape.

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Mussi
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Posted: 16th Jun 2004 01:06
Quote: " in a black hole the gravity is strong enough to not let even light escape."


maybe that's why it's called a black hole

gotta have suit like that



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Chris K
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Posted: 16th Jun 2004 01:10 Edited at: 16th Jun 2004 01:11
Here you go. I hope this explains it better:

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 16th Jun 2004 01:11
I know what you mean, but you can do this with triangles, and Fibre optic, I just don't have anywhere to upload images.

Chris K
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Posted: 16th Jun 2004 01:13
Upload it here: http://www.posergalley.com

No login or anything just upload straight away.

Are you sure your way works? I'm fairly confident it won't.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Jun 2004 01:23
Where the hell do you learn your Science Chris?? Star Trek!?!

Quote: "Yes. That's due to light entering another material and being refracted because it moves at a different speed."


Particles reacting are doing so on the atomic level, light is simply a form of radiation from materials; there are very many spectrums that can be altered at different levels, as we're talking about altering light at the human visual RGB level; my example showed that the simple interaction of faster moving atoms is capable of warping the trajectory of the radation of light within that given point.

Gravity again is just another form of radiation from particles; i've never heard of 'gravitons' outside of science TV shows, because they're not REAL. Anyone who has studies super string would already know that; because the determinate of gravity is based on Gravity Field = Density*Electron(/Proton:Electron)

Unlike standard radiation that -> Extends From, Gravity is an Atomic Magnetic Field which <- Pulls Towards.

Everything in the universe has an Action-> and Reaction<- force.
The difference in weather something escapes to is cannot escape from a particle is simply the Density and Electron structure of the given particle.

It doesn't take massive amounts of gravity to prevent this and it doesn't have to happen on a HUGE scale like a sun. You cloak would basically just have to be the exact structure where light cannot escape it (but to provide it invisible also not pull it in).
Question for such a thing doesn't become

How much gravity would that take? but How much density and power would it require?

Quote: "The point is this: if you had an invisibility cloak, it would never work from more than one specific angle."

Bollocks, it would work from any angle even if it was just using refraction prisoms... the point is more would it display the CORRECT refraction angle to render it invisible ot just make you look like a Chameleon with a cold?

As i've said; do your damn homework about this stuff first. THEN take part in the conversation in debunking it when you can come up with an iron-cast debunk.

I can't give you a simple sphere example of what the coat does for the simple reason; it depends on alot of factors what it would do.
You want a good example of how it would look, check the screenshots of the dawn demo and look at her wings.

Notice how the light passes though them but as bits forming a pattern but changes with the background. The jacket works something like that; in order to fully explain it I would have to write up a shader for it and show exactly how it works.

But as I said it isn't going for !!INVISIBLE!! it is just dynamic camoflage. I dunno how many more damn times I have to say that.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Jun 2004 01:27
Chris, you explaination STILL makes bugger all sense at all.
Explain EXACTLY why the sides wouldn't be show, how on earth can you come up with that conclusion??

I'm trying hard as hell but i don't understand even remotely what the f**k your on about!!!

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 16th Jun 2004 01:34 Edited at: 16th Jun 2004 01:37
This is an example that would work. The triangles hide the sides that you shouldn't see.



HZence
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Posted: 16th Jun 2004 01:50
Is there a way to turn the suit off? I mean, I wouldn't want to lose it or anything...


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Chris K
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Posted: 16th Jun 2004 01:57 Edited at: 16th Jun 2004 01:58
@ Pincho

Yeah, that would just mean you wouldn't see anything on those bits, it would look the colour of the triangles and not the correct colour (what ever is behind the sides of the sphere).

@ Raven


Does that explain it? Whatever it is showing on it's surface will only look right from one angle.

Screenshots or videos don't prove anything because they are only showing one angle at a time. If two people were looking at the same camoflagued object, they couldn't both see it right.

Unless they were looking exactly opposite.
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Posted: 16th Jun 2004 02:00
It's amazing how much techno-babble and foolishness is in the air.

First, there are two technologies involved that people are mixing. Neither one is invisible. The first uses projectors and cameras, as seen in the coat and the piece of paper. They're parlor tricks that depend on special materials. You only think you're through the object. The second is an electronic version that uses many sensors and small disks that change color. It is no where near invisible, but it can break up a vehicle's or soldier's outline so that they can not be as easily spotted in the distance.
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