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Work in Progress / Mercenaries in Space, demo in a few but here are some nice screens =)

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David T
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Posted: 18th Jun 2004 21:23 Edited at: 18th Jun 2004 22:49
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http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/db/downloads/mis.zip
UNFINISHED, 11.4mb demo

I've been working non stop on this. THing I've noew added

- two detail modes, don't think it helps much though!
- lovely engine trails
- lower polygon bullets
- general optimisaion
- cut scenes
- main menu (in the loosest sence of the word)
- loading screen

Even through loads of optimisation it's still a power-hungry game. High detail mode on my athlon 2800+ 1gig ram GF$ti4800 I get around 20-25-30 fps.

Here are some (more) screens-

Intro



Flaming ship with smoke trails a bug in the game forced a ship to be followed by large flames through the game. I think it looks rather cool, especially the wisps of smoke at the end.



Engine trail look better sine I took the pic; some blue as has been added to it.



Expect a demo this weekend.

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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 18th Jun 2004 21:32
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Ooooh, aaaaah, looking fantabulous
Can't wait for the demo!

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David T
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Posted: 18th Jun 2004 21:44
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Well, you needn't wait I've decided to post up what I've got atm. It's basically a one-mission demo which doesn't say "Congrats!" at the end.

just compiling now...

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David T
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Posted: 18th Jun 2004 22:49
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(sorry for double post but I wanted to indicate to people who may have read the above reply that there's been an update)

http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/db/downloads/mis.zip

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Rob K
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Posted: 18th Jun 2004 23:24 Edited at: 18th Jun 2004 23:25
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Hi David,

Looks nice, but its too slow. I get 8 FPS here! According to the time map, the big losses are 80ms on SYNC, 20ms on drawing the mini-map. I know DBPro can be way faster than this (I have a Radeon 9700 / 1.6Ghz processor)

Remember that very few people will have a system like yours, and really you should expect in the realm of 200+ FPS on your system for other people to be able to run it.

However, the game runs quie happily during the fly-by at the start of the level, when presumably all the graphics necessary are there, except the 2D. I suggest that you replace all the 2D with sprites which are much faster.

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David T
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Posted: 18th Jun 2004 23:50 Edited at: 19th Jun 2004 00:03
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Hi,

I agree Rob. I've been trying to optimise for the last week. Try running in lower deatil mode - that disables the minimap (my next area of optimisation) as well as most of the particle effects.

I've disabled everything too intensive and I'm going to continue getting rid of little things.

However there's only so much optimisation I can do, especially if it's the sync that's slowing things down. My ship model's aren't hugely obese - the DB stress test demo gave me better results with higher poly models.

I was wondering, does anything offscreen still take up time in sync'ing? Even on a reasonable empty scene (ie. only the sky sphere and grid) it's still a bit slow. Maybe some other models offscreen are slowing rendering down? I know it sounds stupid, but I've heard worse...

[edit]

Okay, playing around a bit I've got all gui operations down th 0ms apart from the mini map. The main speed loss are the 3d ship models.

With a blank map I get 50fps.

One ship, 47 fps
2 - 43
3 - 40

etc.

Since the demo uses about 47 ships, it's no wonder I'm getting such losses. In each model above there were 1114 tris and 2812 verts - a bit much?

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jrowe
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 01:50 Edited at: 19th Jun 2004 01:52
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Quote: "Since the demo uses about 47 ships, it's no wonder I'm getting such losses. In each model above there were 1114 tris and 2812 verts - a bit much?"


I hope that's sarcasm ! Remember Each ships's only occupying a very small area of the screen. You won't need more than 1-200 polys for each ship MAX, as your high detail models.

Otherwise looking REALLY good.


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walaber
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 02:27
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looking fantastic- I agree you could definately lower the polcount on the models without much loss in detail!

hope to see this one keep improving

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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indi
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 05:16
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looks great so far but only 8 fps.

pentium 933 / 512 ram / tnt2m64

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Rob K
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 11:33
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Quote: "specially if it's the sync that's slowing things down"


Its very misleading. Many of the DBPro commands don't actually do anything when you call them, they just set a flag and everything is processed in the sync.

Your scene is comparatively low poly and as DBPro supports frustrum culling, any object which is entirely off-screen will not be drawn. Although, what version of DBPro is this compiled with?

If I were you, I would try disabling / enabling the following items to find out where the slowdown is:

- 2D (HUD)
- Collision

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Phaelax
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 14:00 Edited at: 19th Jun 2004 14:01
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15fps on a FX5900? I don't think so! And sync ranged from 50 to 125, and loops fluctuated. If I'm just sitting there doing nothing, why are these times so different?

athlon 2600
fx5900xt 128mb
1.5gb ram

I've had 8000 polys on screen at 230fps, what ya doing there buddy?

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David T
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 14:34 Edited at: 19th Jun 2004 14:48
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Quote: "If I were you, I would try disabling / enabling the following items to find out where the slowdown is:

- 2D (HUD)
- Collision"


I've rem-ed everything out in the GUI section - it's now just a couple of sprites.

In short there is no collision Just a few distance checks with bullets etc.

I got the ships from a DB collection, if anybody can lower their polycount I'd be very greatful, I'm not a modeller myself and the demo of Action3D doesn't actually let you test out to see how far models can be reduced.

Quote: "Your scene is comparatively low poly "


Thank you! That's nice to hear It's around 1 plain, 6 spheres and a few extra plains. Plus whatever ship models are on top of that.

Quote: "Although, what version of DBPro is this compiled with?"


Latest patch, compiler version 1.0.0.5.

I'm still a little annoyed at the low speed this is runing - it may be entirely my fault but I'm not even getting 200fps in a blank scene!

Thanks for the help guys

[edit]

Just checkled, it seems facing a completely blank screen apart from sky sphere and a plain I'm rendering 6500 polys :s

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Rob K
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 16:42
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What happens if you turn off the sky sphere and re-enable the rest of the 3D?

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David T
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 20:03 Edited at: 19th Jun 2004 20:13
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Without the sky sphere I now get 6700 polys on a blank scene, 55fps.

Hiding every object in the game does however give 6500 polys. SO i have to figure out where these extra 6,500 polys are coming from


[edit]

Okay, I've completely surrounded the make nebula routine in a check for high detail mode. Before I only checked at certain points not wanting to upset the rest of the prog, but it seems to be running okay at the moment - with only 1063 extraneous polys! And at 55-60fps, with all ships on screen

However, while the game runs smoothly with a large amount of objects there's one worrying thing. Even on a blank screen *with ships else where in the map* the polycount still reflects the ships. I've experimented by moving to a blank area, placing a ship and watching the polycount go up to a new value. Moving away from the new ship the polycount didn't return to its original value. It seems the polycount of all objects, no matter in screen or not, is affecting the speed.

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Rob K
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 21:32 Edited at: 19th Jun 2004 21:37
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Hmm, there is definately something wrong with the models. I tried a test with normal objects and the frustrum culling worked fine, tried again with fighter.x (from MiS) and it was messed up. The polycount did not decrease no matter how far away I was from the object. Plus the moment I got v. close to an object, the FPS went right down.

Some suggestions:

1 - Try exporting the models differently

2 - Ensure that the object is positioned in the center of the 3D world in your editor

3 - Ensure that there are no stray polys anywhere

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David T
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 22:18 Edited at: 19th Jun 2004 22:20
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I think I mentioned before, I didn't make the models - they came from T3DGM to be precise (I'm pretty sure its OK to use them if you're not selling the game, it's just media supplied with a DB product).

This bit of code:



does the job fine and only takes up 1ms in the main loop. Once I finish up some other bits I'll repost the new, faster EXE.

If anybody has some free, working space ship models I'm interested

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 22:41
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Fullscreen bug'o'doom stricks again... Dave add an option menu to select the graphics mode at bootup please

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David T
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 23:49
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Sure thing, it'll be in the new EXE.

What is the bug-o-doom?

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 19th Jun 2004 23:55
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i've nick named it that cause it kills Windows everytime hehee

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David T
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Posted: 20th Jun 2004 01:33
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But what does it do, just crash windows?

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walaber
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Posted: 20th Jun 2004 07:47
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sounds like you're making progress... the game looks amazing, but played really slow for me as well.

I want to try it again once you've sorted the poly issue.

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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faxmaster
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Posted: 20th Jun 2004 10:21 Edited at: 20th Jun 2004 10:35
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Ok, heres a sudden and strange offer: I have too much time on my hands, I like space ships, and you are having trouble with your models and are using pre-made ones... so, uh... would you like some models? If so, I'll post my e-mail (I never check it, so post something here first if you're interested), and you could send some descriptions, if not, sorry for wasting your time. (I don't have any sitting around, but making one shouldn't take to long). Um, yeah. I took a look at what you have so far though, and it looks promising. Keep at it.

NOTE: Sorry for the poor grammer and spelling, it's late and my brain is no longer working.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Jun 2004 11:00
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hangs it so i can't do anything else... pressing reset is the only way to fixx it.

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Posted: 20th Jun 2004 12:50
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The demo is superb apart from the already mentioned frame rate (I'm only getting around 10-15fps, or 1-4fps if everything is firing at each other).

How are you drawing your map? (just wondering as I've tried loads of different ways of doing these & theres a massive difference speed wise using different methods).

Once you sort out your poly probs, if it still runs slow I'd suggest using forced timing if your not already.

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David T
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Posted: 20th Jun 2004 14:20 Edited at: 20th Jun 2004 15:20
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Quote: "Ok, heres a sudden and strange offer: I have too much time on my hands, I like space ships, and you are having trouble with your models and are using pre-made ones... so, uh... would you like some models? If so, I'll post my e-mail (I never check it, so post something here first if you're interested), and you could send some descriptions, if not, sorry for wasting your time. (I don't have any sitting around, but making one shouldn't take to long). Um, yeah. I took a look at what you have so far though, and it looks promising. Keep at it."


Sure thing. D/l the demo and take a look in the models directory, there should be 3 directories (1,2 and 3).
Each corresponds to a different side. In each there is generally the same 3 models with a different colours depending on their side; fighter, colony and scout.x. Take a look at see what sort of style's there and what orientation and size they are.

I'd be very greateful if you ccould find the time to create a few ships


Quote: "The demo is superb apart from the already mentioned frame rate (I'm only getting around 10-15fps, or 1-4fps if everything is firing at each other)."


Thanks Oddly enough, the bullets are just plains (i got rid of the old bullet models, too poly intensive)

Quote: "How are you drawing your map? (just wondering as I've tried loads of different ways of doing these & theres a massive difference speed wise using different methods)."


The grid is one plain with a grid texture. The backdrop is a sky sphere are the rest are just objects placed on the map. All ships have zwrite set to off, to speed up things and make them appear 'over' a planet.

Quote: "Once you sort out your poly probs, if it still runs slow I'd suggest using forced timing if your not already."


Yeah I am. Not that it makes too much difference at 4fps!

[edit]

As some temporary ships I've got out my old friends, IAK's Star Trek models

On normal detail I get around 60fps with all ships, with excessive detail I get around 30. Which is pretty reasonable, considering I was gettind 15fps on normal a few days ago



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DeepBlue
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Posted: 20th Jun 2004 19:08 Edited at: 20th Jun 2004 19:12
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Quote: "How are you drawing your map? (just wondering as I've tried loads of different ways of doing these & theres a massive difference speed wise using different methods)."

Quote: "The grid is one plain with a grid texture. The backdrop is a sky sphere are the rest are just objects placed on the map. All ships have zwrite set to off, to speed up things and make them appear 'over' a planet."


Doh I should have been more specific I meant the mini-map (top left corner)

[Edit] What happens if you knock out the sky sphere for the moment & do some camera clipping (set camera range) ? At least ya stray polys if there are still any shouldnt get drawn [Edit]

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David T
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Posted: 20th Jun 2004 19:19
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Quote: "Doh I should have been more specific I meant the mini-map (top left corner) "


At the moment the minimap is a boring old pure 2d affair (ie. dot commands ) and that's why it's slow. I suppose I'll convert it to a memblock routine soon, should be faster

Quote: "[Edit] What happens if you knock out the sky sphere for the moment & do some camera clipping (set camera range) ? At least ya stray polys if there are still any shouldnt get drawn [Edit]"


The sky sphere doesn't actually take that many polys. On a completely empty scene I only have 87 polys now which is pretty good I think.
I'm not sure about a camera clip, since you're looking down on a scene?

I'm making real progress speed wise; smooth 60fps now

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 20th Jun 2004 19:25
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This game looks like it might be a lot of fun. I watched someone playing an online space trading, and war style game. I would have tried it if it wasn't online. The ships are probably the slowdown problem. Looks to me like you could just put the ship images on plains, and have 2 poly's per ship. Anyhow, you are such a long way away from them, you could get away with low poly ships.

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David T
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Yeah, I have replaced all the ship models as they too high poly and were glitching Pro's frustrum culling as well. I've now got some really low poly star trek ships in at the moment (see a few posts above)

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Guhill The friendly one
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It went fast(er) on my computer. Maybe it's because I chose to "disable" the effects at the beginning.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Jun 2004 07:02
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Discovered it WAS a driver problem just as i suspected.
Found that Service Pack 2 installed Microsoft version of the current detonator release, so i installed that and everything works hunky dory now

i get 8-5fps on this machine, (but not unplayable which i'm glad to see someone has non-sync based input commands); i'll try it on my gameing-rig later.

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David T
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Quote: "(but not unplayable which i'm glad to see someone has non-sync based input commands)"




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The Wendigo
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Howdy folks, I seem to pop my head in and out of the forums alot these days.

Just some helpful advice. Sky spheres are passe (however it is spelled). Go with a sky box now. Sky boxes have a less poly count, and if done right, usually look better than sky spheres. I also feel that the slow down isn't necissarily in the poly count, unless you did a bunch of unnecissary quad-divides that can't be seen (joke joke). My guess is it is somewhere in your pipeline. how-a-bout AI? AI is bessed ran every 5 to 10 frames to keep the framerate smoother. Within 5 to 10 frames, the user won't be able to do too much anyways (thus NPC's shouldn't look stupid). With higher framerates you could even try 20 to 30 frames to do AI. Someone asked about camera ranges too. I've noticed significant frame drops if ranges lye in floating point values (especially the near range, being less than 1). I've been writing a 2D engine in VB6 for a while now and have found that a lot of little modifications to the overall pipeline (and im not just talking the engine, but also the games i write in it) really add to the framerate. For and While loops are killers, I've noticed, and any crazy math (trig mainly) kills things. Dunno how DBP handles trig, but if you haven't already, try making some sine/cosine tables and for proximity/collision detection, try using box collisions. if you need circular/sphereical collision detection, do a box first and see if it is in that, if not, no need to do a sphere collision. About For and While loops, I know you need em, so the best thing I've noticed is to create buffers (takes a little more memory though, but probably shouldn't be that bad). If you have 64 ships but only 10 currently active, why go through an entire loop of 64? just buffer your 10 at some point and index through them only. With While loops, use for loops and remember where you left off with the variables. That way you can split your while, which might have done 10000 calcs/frame, down to 5000 calcs/frame. That can be tougher to implement, though. Over all, and knowing I've been playing an Alpha, I'd say very well done and would rank you at least an 8, but leaning to a 9 (especially since I haven't seen many RTS's in DBP and want to play them! ). Great Job!

PS. - About skyboxes. I don't know what 3D modeller you are using, but I have a great skybox maker on my site. It will undoubtably only work on TrueSpace 4.3 and above, but might still be worth looking at. I have an HTML tutorial with it (but it relies on the TS 4 scene heavily, if i remember correctly).

http://www.geocities.com/djpeterson83/projects.html

everyone feel free to browse the site, too! got one DBP game and a VB6 gems game to play (don't mean to advertise, sorry)

Current Projects: Game Spawn 85%, mini BSP maker 50%, Height Mapper with many features 75%, Space Tactical (Like BC300AD) 15%.
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David T
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Posted: 29th Jul 2004 19:00
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Hi,

Wow this thread is old

Since I last worked on this (this is temporarily on hold) I've tried some speed optimisation techniques in Merc 2. Things like AI every 5 to 10 frames etc.

I'll see if these things can go into MiS.

What does the time map say about the speed of things like Ai, etc?

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Posted: 30th Jul 2004 02:56 Edited at: 30th Jul 2004 03:01
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On my work pc (old p3-800mhz with 256 meg of pc100 ram) I'm getting 8-14fps. Haven't tried it on my home system yet. This game has HUGE potential. Between this and Firewall I'll never finish my game! I look forward to the next update on this one.

BTW, there's a space bmp file that you use. Do you mind if I use it in a background for one of the levels in my game?

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David T
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Posted: 30th Jul 2004 06:16 Edited at: 30th Jul 2004 06:17
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No, I think it came from las6's texture collection anyway :p

Quote: "This game has HUGE potential. Between this and Firewall I'll never finish my game! I look forward to the next update on this one."


That's very nice of you

Trouble is, in the latest DBpro it won't compile at all...

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Posted: 3rd Aug 2004 23:30 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2004 23:31
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this game has very good graphics and i had decent fps.

fx5700(normal clock speeds 425,550) : 28
(overclocked 470,646) : 36
that was with enhanced graphics(e) and i had programs like msn and windows media player in the background.

you should try and find out why it wont compile any more and report it in the bugs forum

http://www.elliot-dickerson.co.uk http://www.killstuff.net im a DBP fanboy
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David T
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Posted: 4th Aug 2004 03:51
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Already done

Quote: "you should try and find out why it wont compile any more and report it in the bugs forum"


It's very hard when it's about 2000 lines I might try in future.

Get 15 new commands, all the date / time commands left out of DBPro for free!
DOWNLOAD PLUGINS HERE: http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/ and select "DarkBasic"
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The Goldorak
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Posted: 30th Aug 2004 03:33
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Help ! I don't know how i cannot go on your webpage http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/db/downloads/ ??????????

Did someone had this problem ?

Darkbasic is great !
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David T
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Posted: 30th Aug 2004 03:35
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Yes I have posted elsewhere that my web site is down until September 1st.

Unfortunately with the latest patches MiS is silently crashing when compiled. It's a great shame as it could have been a great game but all energies are now focussed on Mercenaries 2.

Get 15 new commands, all the date / time commands left out of DBPro for free!
DOWNLOAD PLUGINS HERE: http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/ and select "DarkBasic"
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