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Geek Culture / How does VB differ from DB?

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The Lynx
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 08:39
Hey,
Yes I know VB is more for applications, but in what ways do they differ? Like which is more stronger is one area than another.

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walaber
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 09:58
you've basically answered you own question.

VB is a general BASIC language that can be used for anything (but is most apt at application-development).

DB is a highly specialized engine specifically designed for creating games / programs with 3D graphics (through directx).

VB is much more versatile and featureful, but writing a 3D game with it is generally not fun/easy/rewarding. (from what I've heard)

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 12:35
Why do people ask these questions ? Whats wrong with searching or perhaps having a look at what each offers ?


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Van B
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 12:43 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2004 13:49
VB is really a windows app development language, instead of loading objects and affecting them, you'd insert controls onto a form and affect them - for example writing a file selector in VB would be easy because most of the complex work is already done, you could just use a folder list control and a file list control and have it done in an hour or so. In DB, you'd have to completly code the whole lot from scratch and it'd take much longer. I have looked at a couple of VB 3D engines, but really they're not as good or as flexible as DB (yup I called DB flexible).

I use VB at work all the time, and it's a good implimentation of BASIC, in fact it's the biggest language in use today - but for making games DB is the sensible option.


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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 13:05
I dislike VB, but unfortunately I'll have to start getting used to VB .Net


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 13:21
VB is good for making things like Wordprocessors, Art Packages, Databases. It is no good for making games. VB can help you to get a job.

DB can do most things that VB can do, but it would take longer.

VB can't do some of the things that DB can do.

CattleRustler
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 15:40




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Van B
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 16:08
Ohh, and VB4 is the best version .

Well in my book anyway, considering the low spec PC's I have to work with - VB4 is pretty much ideal for those.


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Dave J
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 17:25
Quote: "DB can do most things that VB can do, but it would take longer.

VB can't do some of the things that DB can do."


That's completely untrue, DB can only do things VB can by using the Win32 API. Likewise, VB can do things DB does by using the DirectX API. In both scenarios, 3D will take longer in VB then DB but Windows would take longer in DB then VB. Actually, I'd even say DB has less functionality in the sense that VB can create DLL's and export functions and classes.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 17:31
Welocme back Exeat


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Dave J
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 17:35
Thanks, I got back last night. Don't suppose you have any new versions of the Netlib DLL yet?


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 17:59
nope
but when I do, one thing that needs fixing is the Console Window. It needs to be like the VW where focus is set back to the dbp app after the console is opened. Other than that, I will be removing the clipboard functions (currently remmed within definitions) so you could take them out of the c++ code.

Have you made any progress on the Exported VB.NET functions? Will you be at the Q&A later?


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Manticore Night
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 19:06
I started making games in VB and acctually VB is WAY better at 2D games than DB. Once I started a 2D game in DB, but it was a real pain in the a$$ because it was hard to place objects. In VB you can just drag and drop your 2D objects.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2004 20:11
Quote: "That's completely untrue, DB can only do things VB can by using the Win32 API. Likewise, VB can do things DB does by using the DirectX API. In both scenarios, 3D will take longer in VB then DB but Windows would take longer in DB then VB. Actually, I'd even say DB has less functionality in the sense that VB can create DLL's and export functions and classes."


I meant that DB can make an art package or a Word processor without the win32 API.

VB Can't make a 3D game all on its own. Not very well anyway.

The Lynx
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 01:00
The reason I was asking this is that i've never used VB before, and I was yelled at by a big time VB person that DB is just a BASIC compiler (or 'copier', I don't know which because his spelling is not A+), nothing more. He also said that, quote, "Dude, VB6/7 Can do games, and everything else that DB can, they are just copiers". I'd like to find from developers like you why you use DB and not something like "VB6/7" instead.

Ah, anyways. Thanks for the help

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zircher
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 01:07
Your VB person was probably an idiot poser. There is no VB 7. Anyone that has tried to used DirectX with VB/VC++/.net should also know the value of DirectX wrappers and other game APIs.
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 01:14
well technically vb.net is vb7, but whos counting
(same for c++, 7 is c#)
(the internal directories are even titled as such)


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orv
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 01:35
Quote: "VB Can't make a 3D game all on its own. Not very well anyway."


Microsoft does have a DirectX SDK for VB.
It's not as easy to use as Dark Basic though!

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zircher
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 01:49 Edited at: 24th Jun 2004 01:50
True CR, but nobody refers to VB.NET as VB 7.0 unless they're deliberately trying to mess with someone or they are clueless. In this case, I'll put my money on a fool that wouldn't know a Direct3d surface if you smacked him with it.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 01:59
I think that quite a few people would call VB.Net VB7.

CattleRustler
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 02:47
I agree with Zircher - that other guy above who said that stuff was a complete tool.

a correction to my above post:
VB7 is VB.NET
VC++ is VC7 (managed C++)
C# is C#

(based on the directory structures of VS.NET 2003 Ent. Arch.)


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Rob K
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 03:18
Quote: "VC++ is VC7 (managed C++)
C# is C#"


Glad you made that clear

C# is a very swish design, but C# applications have a huge memory footprint (10MB!) and are much slower to load up initially. (About same speed as C++ in usage, although the automatic memory management is a huge bonus).

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hyrichter
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 03:55
I was learning how to make games with VB6 and DirectX 8. I'm an old time VB person. Anyway, I was looking around on Amazon for books about Visual Basic game programming when I stumbled across DarkBASIC. I've never regretted getting DB. Yes, you can probably get VB to do most of what DB can do, but it is much, much harder.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 04:28
Technically speaking, they're entirely different worlds.
Coding wiser they have similar syntax but couldn't be further apart if they tried.

Visual Basic upto 6 (98) is interpreted, this is very much like DB Standard/Enhanced. In the way that code is converted realtime using a runtime library/exe, although VB is capable of making DLLs; it's only export capability is COM which is only really reuseable in VB or Object-based Applications. C++/C#/VB/J#/IE/Python(albeit hard as hell to include in the first place)/PureBASIC

Visual Basic .Net/7.x however uses runtime compiled code, so it takes a little longer to start but will adapt to any system; however, it still *REQUIRES* runtimes in order to work, .Net Framework and Common Control DLLS which both weigh in at a hefty 45MB total.
Dark Basic Professional also uses 'compiled' code but basically uses framework + runtime libraries for everything else.

This actually puts DBP in a very hard place in which to say 'it belongs in the compiled/interpreted/binary framework/etc...' catagories. Because it is a bit of everything and a bit of nothing.

However provided they both do thier job, i don't care what libraries are in the background to achieve it or why it's achieving it (not programming in it anyways).

So it more comes down to the technical language abilities.
VB6 & DB are worlds apart in terms of language, mainly because DB is procedural and VB is object orientated.

So whereas in DB you directly tell the application what functions come where, in VB you basically tell it what information it needs and it figures out the presidence of that stuff in the background, the higher the number of requried calls the higher in the presidence chain it goes.

This also extend to the language. In DB you work primarily with a single object at any given time...
Variable / Function / Array; all within basically a single object point.

Visual Basic you work primarily to object attached variables / functions and arrays.
This means rather than code like;


you would write something like



niether code is correct, more so the VB as i don't think you can actually do that without a structure class, but still i think you get the idea between the coding types.

DBP does get basic objects, but compared to VB.Net this is extremely tame;

type MyType
a as integer
b as float
endtype

Value as MyType
Value.a = InputA
Value.b = InputB

compared to

typedef MyType
a.integer()
b.float()
end

Value.MyType( inputA, inputB )

again i don't think the VB is quite right as i've not used it, but i think it conveys the different in how it all works.

VC++ .Net isn't Managed C++ you can choose how you program, if anything C# is actually managed C++. (or mangled C++ if you ask me)

Quote: "True CR, but nobody refers to VB.NET as VB 7.0 unless they're deliberately trying to mess with someone or they are clueless. In this case, I'll put my money on a fool that wouldn't know a Direct3d surface if you smacked him with it."


i refer to all .net as 7.0, just like i refer to all of visual studio 98 as 6.0 / version numbers you know exactly what your dealing with.

That and there are now 2 versions of .Net, 7.0 and 7.1 .. which are not compatible with each other + 8.0 is due out sometime in 2005 which confusingly enough is also called .Net;

CattleRustler
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 04:28
Its becoming easier now with VB.NET and DirectX 9 SDK which includes pure .net DX classes - DX in general is still a bear I'd rather not wrestle with at the moment, however


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 04:30 Edited at: 24th Jun 2004 04:34
Raven are you saying VB 6 doesn't generate ASM exe's? If you are then you are mistaken.


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hyrichter
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 04:50
Quote: "Visual Basic upto 6 (98) is interpreted"
Uhhh, VB hasn't been interpreted since version 3 or 4 I think. It still requires the msvbvm .dll, but it is NOT an interpreted language.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 05:27
erm... oooki :-\

Dave J
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 10:16
Yeah, VB4 was the last interpreted version of VB.

Quote: "but when I do, one thing that needs fixing is the Console Window. It needs to be like the VW where focus is set back to the dbp app after the console is opened."


Ok, easy.


Quote: "Other than that, I will be removing the clipboard functions (currently remmed within definitions) so you could take them out of the c++ code."


Hmmm, so you couldn't get them working at all? Or are you just waiting a while before retrying?


Quote: "Have you made any progress on the Exported VB.NET functions? Will you be at the Q&A later?"


I'm waiting on a reply from Mike, I wasn't able to send an email until I got back because my server was having some problems but I've sent one now, I don't think it looks good though because there are a few unseen problems with VB that I didn't think about. Well the QA has been already so I've missed it (I was asleep at the time), I will read through the logs ASAP.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 24th Jun 2004 17:13
Exeat, see our thread - I am responding there

sorry guys


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Van B
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Posted: 25th Jun 2004 11:35
VB6 and below are still reasonably interpreted - well the whole functionality is stored in massive runtimes, so VB6 would never be as fast as C++ or even Delphi, I reckon VB.Net is compiled though.


Van-B


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 25th Jun 2004 16:04
ya, JIT Compiled


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