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Geek Culture / What do you think is the BEST 3d arts package?

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itsallgood
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Posted: 20th Sep 2002 20:59
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Not just for making games, but ease of use, Realistic rendering?

I usally use Cinema 4D, but am going to try somthing else that allows skin movement.

So whats your Fav?
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AlecM
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Posted: 20th Sep 2002 23:50
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i like:
Maya
truespace 6
Softimage
Max
LW

Goto http://www.shellshockede.com
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Tapewormz
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Posted: 24th Sep 2002 14:43
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Realistically, if you're programming in DarkBasic Pro then you're a novice programmer and you generally don't have the money to throw around. Otherwise, you'd be programming in borland or visual c++.

So, that said there is really no reason why you should purchase Maya, Truespace, Softimage, 3D Studio Max or Lightwave. Why spend hundreds or thousands of dollards for a high end modelling package when you haven't spent hundreds or thousands on a professional launguage.

Stick with the basics if you're using a basic language. Get MilkShape3D It's so affordable and it supports all the popular formats of 3D. It's only $30.00 US.

I'm very skeptical of people who claim they bought Lightwave, Softimage, Maya and/or 3D Studio Max. Those people aren't likely to be programming in a language like DarkBasic Pro. Those people aren't likely to be programming at all. Because if they're any good at what they do, then they're making the good money at doing the 3D alone.

So, for anyone who's not kidding themselves by claiming to be a hardcore game designer I would suggest using MilkShape3D. You get very impressive results and there are a host of free tutorials on the product. There are also plenty of video tutorials showing you how to create models.

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Tapewormz
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Posted: 24th Sep 2002 14:48
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Someone wake me up when a major software distributor and/or house picks up a game created in any basic language and markets it under their banner.

The only two games I've seen made in a basic language that were picked up by software houses and distributed with advertising in major publications were some 2D AMOS flying game for the Amiga, and some 2D BlitzBasic racing game called Skidmarks for the Amiga. That was along damn time ago, and I don't ever see that happening again.

So yeah, when Activision picks up and starts to market the Room or Tank demo...Lemme know...Cause I need a good laugh.

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GCEclipse
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Posted: 24th Sep 2002 19:28
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I've seen a few DB games that appeared in the shops - but not on a major label. The one I remember seeing availiable was loco-commotion - saw that in loads of places.

Personally I think you should stick to Cinema 4D or as the man says look into milkshape. These are both easy to use and cheap (since they gave versions of C4D away for nothing on magazine disks.)

GC
http://www.eclipsedevelopment.co.uk/
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Tapewormz
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Posted: 24th Sep 2002 23:05
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I've never used Cinema 4D, but I have seen it appear in magazines aswell for free. I don't know if they were trialware or not, but anything that can get the job done for the least ammount of money is what you want.

MilkShape3D has a really LOW learning curve. Anyone can pick it up and start modelling. Look up the video tutorials done by ISO for MilkShape3D. He'll teach you how to create your first low poly biped and much more. You'll gain all the skills required to develop 3D models for your games.

http://www.planetquake.com/polycount/cottages/blackboard/tutorials.htm

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Tapewormz
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Posted: 24th Sep 2002 23:27
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Oh yeah,...You're not gonna get realistic rendering with MilkShape3D...Sorry. It's just for modelling for games. I neglected to pay attention to that part of your question.

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CD On CD
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Posted: 25th Sep 2002 01:58
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but.....please tell me IF these scenerios are plausible (do any of those creating games have hope?):

1) if someone creates a great (i mean really great) app in DBP could not a 'major' vendor see it, look at it, pick it up, & then port it to THEIR system?

2) i want to use DBP not in games but possibly in other applications where 3D modelling will come in handy. DBP will work in creating OTHER types of apps, right? like screen savers (for fun), CD autoruns (possibly), other areas?

please advise, & thanx

United We (Still) Stand
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GCEclipse
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Posted: 25th Sep 2002 12:00
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1)Not entirely sure what you mean.
2)Yes absolutely.

GC
http://www.eclipsedevelopment.co.uk/
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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 25th Sep 2002 16:33
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If you are lucky you 3DSMAX 5 will fall off the back of a lorry (They have crap locks on discreet trucks ) if you catch my drift...

Oh and i would not even try to sell a game made with errr 'lost' 3DMAX distro's casue you will loose soo much money in court and it is bad ethics.

My ethics go a bit loke this:

Give all software away for free.
If you aim to make money using the software (anyhting) then you have to pay for it.

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
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CD On CD
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Posted: 25th Sep 2002 19:28
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GCEclipse:
thanx for the reply.

what i was thinking about on #1 was in response to the comment about a major vendor not picking up games created with DBP (or any other basic language):

if a person created a great game in DBP (or other language) & it was passed around all over the inet (the word got around), was a success on just about every major site, etc. could not a major vendor eventually see it in time & then want to (if the game was great enough or had great possibilities) consider picking it up & re-coding it (porting it) into their system platform(s) (win, ps2, xbox, etc)?

i dont know. maybe i'm still from the old school. i remember way back when (early 80's) when i did make games (& before the inet was even heard of) , i programmed several games on the TI99 4/A BUT a vendor (DataSoft...remember them?) picked them up & converted them into the popular format at that time (atari, commodore). i still thought that perhaps IF a major vendor saw something they could take that idea (& author) & go for it if they felt that the game was worth it. am i wrong these days?

on the other hand, like Martyn says, IF i do create a game, i generally give it away...& just hope (i dont worry about it) that if it's good enough, that sometime, somewhere, someone just may like it better than i do

United We (Still) Stand
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th Sep 2002 06:31
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Ya know just because someone isn't spending thousands of $, £ or € on a Development Language, which MSVC++ 6.0 on its own is currently $130/£90 and you don't get much more pro than that because most development houses are still using it preferablly over 7.0 (.Net) ... doesn't mean that they don't want to spend out on professional graphics packages!
I personally have spent an extremely obscene amount of money over the last year updating Licences for my 3D products, and just because I'm not a proffesional programmer using a product which has be developed by if i'm not mistaken the same guys who developed AMOS, which produced more proffesional games than you've had hot dinners ... i think its a little more than cheeky to go off on people having highend 3d packages just because they're not using industry standard programming tools!?

Now back to the post in hand, Rendering wise ... trueSpace 6 has the most REALISTIC engine closely followed by Lightwave 7 - effects wise, Maya has more effects built into it than you can shake a stick at ... so certain effects are easy to produce.

each trueSpace, Lightwave and Maya have excellent Rendering/Project browsers which makes rendering parts of the scene for later editing and composition great.
Personally I wouldn't touch Max with a 10ft barge pole, as it is overly complex, not enough actual features and made to be too much of an overall tool an falls second in almost every area. As you can pickup a copy of trueSpace6 and Lightwave 7 for the price of Max4 and have enough left over for upgrades, personally I'd go for several packages over one to get the job done

If money is no object then get Maya (and a coder ) have it upgraded as you develop. The setup of Maya is so versitile if you ever learn it (i know that alot of DB users have taken one look at the PLE and thought no way) that it is great for all kinds of development work.

With all of the major products, if you can't produce results giving up is kinda worthless ... reason for saying this is, I know far too many people who learn a single product and stick to it (oftenly Max).
Knowing the strengths and weakness's is the key to knowing what product to use.
Now although yes the professional editions of products are oftenly out of the financial range of most people, so oftenly they go for one that is most talked about (yes :: sighs :: that'd be Max again) you'll find that most of you here are students and qualify for quite large discounts.

Maya PLE (free)
Gmax (free) Max4 ($500)
trueSpace6 ($250 free packages )
Lightwave7 ($300 free upgrades )
Softimage ($500)

Now yes it has been mentioned here that Milkshape3D is one of the better ones to grab for games development, however right now all it is happens to be IS a game level modeller.
NO RENDER FACILITIES
NO BOOLEANS (Subtraction, Cut)
NO BEVEL/CHAMFER/SPLIT
BASIC UV MAPPING
BASIC MESHSMOOTH (No Nurbs)
NO SPLINES
BASIC MATERIALS

if you are modelling for a game then this is a perfect solution and i'm not knocking it as such becuase i tend to prefer using it for organical low poly modelling - it is also very friendly to use. However for rendering, thats just a joke ... the only rendering it can do and this is a VERY recent update is "Render Window Snapshot"
Wings3D is good and free, however still heavily in development!

I'd strongly suggest, get a demo of ALL of these products, find out which one you like and start with it. THEN move onto the others and try to produce the same results.
You'll be best informed to make a decision on what to use and which is easiest. Becuase personally I'll stick away from Max like the plauge (if i had that luxury at work i'd be in heaven) however alot of people like it for some god unknown reason. Different people different opinions really, but I can tell you the merits and failing of almost every 3D Package on the market, oftenly a way around them as well.

"For the Greater Good"...
Kyi'Aun (Jedi Master) Rai'Ka
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CD On CD
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Posted: 26th Sep 2002 08:45
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ok, back to the original topic of this post:

i've used Max but even on my 1.6Mhz it takes what seems forever to load up...so i rarely, if ever use it.

for landscaping i use AnimaTek's World builder (http://www.digi-element.com/)

for human modelling i use Poser (http://www.curiouslabs.com)

for 3D character animation i use Life Forms (http://www.charactermotion.com/)

now, for easy 2D animation (actual cartoon storyboarding style) i use Toon Boom Studio (http://www.toonboom.com)

there are others of course but these are the main one.

granted, thesed may not be the best in everyone's book but it's what i like best (as the topic stated) i dont only use these for programming but mostly for design work for clients.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 26th Sep 2002 13:13
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My own view is that it doesn't really matter too much what rendering system the package has, or how many special effects it can perform - at the end of the day you're 99% of the time using it to create models for your games and for that you want the best MODELLER possible, not the most realistic raytracer. Creating and working in 3D is hard enough as it is, so to have several million pop-out options appear for even a simple box is quite overwhelming. Personally I use Cinema 4D because the modeller aspect of it is extremely easy to pick up. But everyone has their own favourites. Don't be swayed into buying a package for the wrong reasons though, none of them are cheap.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 26th Sep 2002 16:35
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As for Maya PLE - 126MB download is not happening on a 56k!

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
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The Darthster
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Posted: 26th Sep 2002 20:24
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I use anim8or because it's small and free and I don't need to do much modelling. www.anim8or.com
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gbuilder
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Posted: 27th Sep 2002 07:49
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I've been experimenting with Carrara. Learning to build from Primitives is the trick. Carrara also has Metaballs..
Just recently I learnt how to do Reverse Boolean, it's a great way to create objects with holes in them etc.
Models made in Carrara seem to import ok into DB. I've yet to try DBPro or to animate such a model.

gbuilder.

Life is a game.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Sep 2002 15:12
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lol ... well perhaps nice to finally been in a forum where everyone is not "Max is the best!" (by no way am i refering to RGT )

I downloaded MayaPLE for my brother and burnt it to CD for him, just to find out his system wasn't upto spec.
Maya will run on
- WinXP/NT/2k | 512Mb Ram | 800Mhz Processor
(pretty powerful Mac needed if you use one )
They do send out FREE CDs with MayaPLE on them upon request, atleast within the UK. Not sure about states, what you get from a UK based company hehee

Rich is right, whatever you choose is upto you - modelling packages are simply tools, only the artist can produce the work... personally found that products full of gizmos that take away my freedom i end up hating because quite frankly at the end of the day it isn't my own work.
Not gonna say its not worth it, but being comfortable within a product to learn is paramount. For me the choice was choosen for me Amos3D was my very first modeller before moving onto Lightwave3D (free with my Video Toaster2 card) and then Caligari24 - anyone else think the Amiga was an outstanding peice of hardware?
Back then you want a realistic render with a simple circle your talkin the better part of 3hours
Even with my Video Toaster2 4Mb card it took about 12hours to render a simple table, with a cup on it and the window open. If i can find the disk (if still working) i'll see about getting it... was the first peice of work i was proud of
God most modelling back then was mostly handwork and approximations, if you want a feel for it try modelling with DarkBASIC out of primatives - was alot of fun. Probably could make a simple clone of them in DB

"For the Greater Good"...
Kyi'Aun (Jedi Master) Rai'Ka
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Tapewormz
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Posted: 30th Sep 2002 05:54
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Well, pick me up and dust me off when a DBP game gets a full page ad in PC gamer. I'm not saying that it's not possible, it's just that if most of you are like me. Then you're enthusiasts that never finnish a project. The most impressive thing I've ever seen done with Dark Basic thus far has been a nurfed Final Fantasy clone called Equilibrium. It looked prommising, but the project was scrapped. That's a game that in my mind, could have made it to store shelves. The only problem is, that the support for any game made in Dark Basic is pretty much at the mercy of the developers of Dark Basic. If there's a fatal flaw in thier library or something, then it's going to show up in your game as a bug. How will you address that bug? With languages like VB and C++, that's not really an issue. I think that major software developers would be scared by that fact alone.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 30th Sep 2002 06:21
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See the main problem I've seen within DB isn't in the language, but the type of people using it.

I'm personally here to develop my coding skills, and just have fun ... the actual retail and publication side of things isn't exactly what I want. Especially when you consider almost every game i've helped with upto date NEVER has had my real name in it!

However alot of people here aren't here simply for fun, they want to make huge Final Fanstasy Games OR Complete Mech Warrior games... however are unwilling to spend the time and effort on making FULL titles. So they end up as either a simple tech demo that most of us can do within anhour if we could be bothered, or just never released because they come across a bug.
The fact that good majorities tend to take on 3-4 projects of thier own usually is a good downfall too.
What I've personally found annoying is after getting begged to help out with games, when i finally agree as basic help only somehow I end up developing the majority of it .. which quite frankly I don't have the time or the motivation as I'd love for one of these days to actually finish a project of my own!

For the past year I've been trying to boost the point in careful planning and teamwork to develop a title, hindered slightly by the fact that the best titles out there have been developed by the few individuals with enough will power to keep with it!

However what people don't realise is it took them month of development, and everyone expects results within minutes.
Just because DBpro isn't on the professional language list doesn't mean it isn't to be treated in the same way.

To develop a full game then you need to understand that half of the development is done before you even type the first line of code. As coding is the final step not the first!

Sure you see that F1 Demo created by the DBS team within 24hours, however not to sound nasty - by they've been coding for years and this it their language! It was litterally developed right up until the last possible second... the physics don't even come close to real, the collision isn't angular and the levels are simple.
Its a great Arcade game, but no where near a professional game development - and the sooner everyone relises that they're not genius that cann whip out perfect code in an instant and start workin in teams taking on single projects and actually acting more and more proffessional in thier endeavours - I can guarrentee you that the software developed as a result will be of about the same calibre.

Especially as the major hype and biggest thing everyone was talking about was DBpro can handle 10x the polygons!
GRAPHICS are not the most important thing in a game, they help people want to play it ... but I'd personally rather keep my polygon count and spend my extra speed on the things that matter, like Ai, physics, etc...

I hope that with the creation of the Community game, everyone will see what developing titles in a group... and with a good plan can acomplish.

"For the Greater Good"...
Kyi'Aun (Jedi Master) Rai'Ka
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 30th Sep 2002 19:44
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While I agree with nearly everything you've said Raven there are other elements that come into play also. The first is the "surprise attack" - when out of nowhere a DB game lands on peoples desktops that is truly quite wonderful and has obviously had a lot of thought and effort put into it. The showcase is full of examples of quality games and demos from people who haven't ever posted a single message here in their entire DB life. That is an important point - these forums (RGT included) do not represent the majority of DB/DBPro owners out there.

The second point is the age range of the typical DB user. It is SO noticeable when I talk to people (either on MSN or via email) - those that are a little older (early 20's) are far more clued-up just what is involved in making a proper game. This isn't exclusive across the board and there are exceptions each way but it's a fair statement to make.

So many people set their sights just too damned high when in reality they'd be hard pushed to write Frogger, let alone FFX. This isn't a condescending comment either - it's actually a very valid one if you stop and think about it for a moment. What's involved in Frogger? Actually quite a bit! Multiple sprite tracking and movement, sensitive control system, scores, levels, difficulty, basic AI? game patterns, collision, time synced events, etc! This is not quite the trivial game you first thought it was - and yet the grounding you would learn from making it will be invaluable for later on in game your development life. It would teach you about arrays (or types if you prefer), sprite handling, game logic and lots of other useful things.

Yet most people would brush it off in a second.

This brings me back to my point that the "older" generation wouldn't be so phased by this because for them games like Frogger hold strong retro memories and to re-create that isn't an "uncool" thing to do for them.

Some DB games are really clever affairs though, personally I rate HiJacker as one of my favourites - there is an awful lot going on there and it still keeps up the pace. Also Gwain is just fantastic, I mean that is true class puzzling.

So you see if you have the apptitude then great things really are possible. People are very quick to moan about DB and DBPro not being "powerful" enough (etc etc) but in reality 99% of those people rarely finish anything regardless of which language they use, it's just who they are.

Claiming to know it all is all good and well, but in my eyes you earn my respect through one thing and one thing alone - code. Either show me a passionate desire to learn and better your own work or stun me with something you've managed to get DB/DBPro to do. Anything else is just idle banter.

(These are of course my own personal opinions and should be taken as such, despite the DB Team member status).

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 30th Sep 2002 23:02
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Nice...
Thats a great point right there!
Reminds me, i miss frogger
i could never get across the logs
However something I'd like to see worked on more are the classic, like Gorrila (aka Tank) or PacMan - One of the simple classics that we all love.
I mean theres Invaders, however that was created by Lee as part of DB - so doesn't really count hehee

However this does make me want to remake my simple tank game

"For the Greater Good"...
Kyi'Aun (Jedi Master) Rai'Ka
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Tapewormz
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'People are very quick to moan about DB and DBPro not being "powerful" enough (etc etc) but in reality 99% of those people rarely finish anything regardless of which language they use, it's just who they are.'

I never claimed that DB and/or DBP weren't powerful. I think it's great bang for the buck. I said that I don't see Activision picking up a title developed with DB and/or DBP. I also stated that the most promissing DB project I've seen thus far was Equillibrium. In my opinion, it could have been picked up. However, it would be highly unlikely that a company such as Activision or any of the other major software distro's would do this. They wouldn't be able to support the software. I don't know for certain that there isn't anyone at Activision that has DB/DBP programming experience, but I doubt it.

I'm skeptical yes, but if I did actually see a DB/DBP title picked up, then it would be a very exciting and inspirational development.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Oct 2002 04:03
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My comment wasn't directed at you personally, please don't take it that way. But do understand that not everyone here is in it for the "money". Also the days of Activision picking up game titles by any sole developer no matter what it is written in is long long gone.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Tapewormz
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Posted: 1st Oct 2002 16:02
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It just seems to me that some people on the boards are having delusions of grandeur. They're striving for a goal that isn't realistic. I think people should just have fun and program and share. Getting groups of people together to develop is a great idea, but don't be suprized when alot of those people stray and are never to be heard from again.

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itsallgood
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"the days of Activision picking up game titles by any sole developer no matter what it is written in is long long gone."

didnt Chris Sawyer make RCT mostly on his own?

And thanks for your replys on the software im using anim8tor(-i think thats right), and when i get better im going to get 3dsmax.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 7th Oct 2002 00:57
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hehee... not what he ment by sole developer

Holy jumping mother of god NOOOO!!!...
Ahem I mean, I'll think about it
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AlecM
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I think truespace is really great for people starting out. Its got some good low poly tools and its really easy to start with. It can also to plenty of other highpoly things and 3d web stuff. Not to mention the fantastic render engine. You never know where 3d will lead you. you ma think your going to make models for games and end up doing something completly different. Also, truespace is one of the best organized and userfriendly enviroments you will come across. Make sure you get the trial (www.caligari.com)

oh ya, if you want to get truespace6 for real cheap then you can sign up for caligari's new letter and wait (sign up when you download the trial)

i got both truespace 4.3 and 5 for $149 each from newsletter offers.

Goto http://www.shellshockede.com
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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 16th Oct 2002 04:00
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lol, the difference is that RCT is a good game
(not saying yours isn't)

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 16th Oct 2002 17:38
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RAVEN:

I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT even if it is expensive.

I am not gonna use my hacked 3D Max anymore

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
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Van B
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Posted: 16th Oct 2002 18:52
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Erm, I use Rhino3D.

It's a fairly high end 3D modeller that has the best interface I've ever seen on a modelling package. You know how 2D CAD packages are all fairly similar - like similar icons and terms so you can migrate really easily, well Rhino is like a 2D CAD package - only in 3D.

I have practically every free modeller going, I even have a legit copy of Max - but Rhino floats my boat.


Van-B
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indi
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Posted: 17th Oct 2002 06:29
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In frogger if u watched how u jumped onto the logs then falling off the edges due to a misaligned landing position wasnt a chore.

Later on when the beavers come this works wells becuase parts of your froggy are not hanging off the log

You can play a game inside frogger with your friends by trying to get a really fast time up the map to a base and if u land a fly in that then your mate has to beat your time and have a fly

atari joysticks were good for this game lol

just watch the patterns and try to slow them down in your mind, look for slower lanes to get some mind breathing space.

the center of the map is the safest place due to reaction time.

do double taps and triple taps to move and it works with the flow of traffic and river debri.
this makes it easier when the game is going ballistic and
triple race cars and milktrucks just plain get agrovating

anyway seriously


I think a point to consider is that the 3d package should at least have some form of boolean extraction and good
import export tools.


Im using 3dc Ms3d amapi Ts3se and a small bunch of converters Ms3d doesnt really have this yet and is kind of the exception for what i like and Im no pro on the subject.

I do like a program I can open and understand how to use it
without cryptic feature activation locations.

I like multiple undos and responsive commands with indications of whats happening if its going to be slow.

http://www.lunarpixel.com/ is my new site
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Shadow Robert
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 17th Oct 2002 10:01
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ya know what i think is stupid against Max and really would probably stop alot a piracy... if you didn't have to pay so much for the bloody DEMO version.
I remember when i was told i have to learn it - i sent off for a demo CD, they charged me £250 just for that!
Not to mention i felt they didn't know what they were doing as on the site there was no indication this would cost me anything - and i ended up having to give my credit details over the phone, anyone who know the US-UK signal quality will understand how frustrating that can be - especially as i don't yell down the phone like most people!

I mean i can sympathise in that respects ... but when it all comes down to it, Max is a modeller and as such all you need are the same tool set to learn. Gmax provides this without having As much of a complicated UI. Infact i'd prefer its material manager oftenly.

I've not used Rhino since v2.0 it was nice, but not really for games development work - the tool set are far to close to programs that done care to keep an eye on polygon counts... AutoCad is the same, actually the whole point in Max being developed in the way it has been.
I mean most programs just lack the tools to develop anything worth while - or rather the wrong combination of tools. as always downto personal preferance - however at if anyone chooses they wish to make a carrer out of this then learning atleast one (if not all) of the industry packages is useful.

Holy jumping mother of god NOOOO!!!...
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Megaman X
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Joined: 21st Oct 2002
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2002 22:01
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Well, I started with Anim8or. Although I never did any models with any 3D modelers before, all the basic stuff I've learned with Anim8or. I would recomend you to try out the demos you can find on the net or in the manufactores homepages.
I personally use 3D Max 5.0 and it's great. It come with a full great tutorial in the help system teaching from the aparently "confusing" tool bar till particles and real time casting lights and nice things to do.
There's nothing wrong in using a cracked program. Just u must remember that: If you release one day ur software and u made with illegal stuff, you will be reported to the FBI hehe.

I think the price of Max is just toooooo much for a student or a hobbist. We most here are just to learn the stuff and most of us wont put a damn game on the shelves, but we all have the right to learn...Crack it bud
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2002 22:59
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I seriously think your post should be deleted... there is never a call for piracy and there is definatly rules in the user agreement about recommending people to commit illegal acts!!

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Megaman X
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2002 00:04
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I saw ur desktop Vegeta, u are using 3D Max 4.2, I bet its not legal either. Most of the dudes here says the same shit as u do when they actually use illegal copies of softwares...
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2002 04:35
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3D Max 4.0 with the 4.2 -> 4.26 update
plus Character Studio 3.2 -> 3.3 update
Reactor 2.0 -> 2.1 update
all that cost me $2,500 (plus i have Flame and Combustion)
I use them for work and I absolutly hate Max...
If you looked closely to my desktop i'm sure you'd also have seen Maya 4.2 Unlimited, Lightwave and trueSpace6

they're all legal copies and its costs me alot to update them on a business licence every year so i can work from home/laptop if the needs be!

i'm so piss'd at pirateers because they're the people who boost up my premiums every year!
and its not because of lost sales because most who pirate can't afford it, but because the publishers see it as a perfect ploy to SAY they're loosing sales and jack up prices!!

so excuse me if i am a little more than cheesed off at shelling out almost $10k per year because people are giving companies a perfect excuse to gouge those of us who do actually part with our hard ernt cash!!!

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Megaman X
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2002 05:01
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Ok, I believe you Raven Vegeta, dont hate me, but u have to agree that 3D Max is not worthy. If u work with those programs and make money with them its another thing, thats not my case. They haven't done big changes from R3, R4 and R5 which are basically the same programs... Maybe if Max was cheaper should not be the same amount of piracy over it.
Look Visual Basic or Visual C++. All great sofwares to an affair price.

Well, another thing peoples should do is to buy or second hand or older softwares as:

3D Max R3
Visual Studio 6.0
Adobe Photoshop 5,5.5 or 6.0

U can buy them legally and MUCH cheaper now because they have been upgraded and they are still AWESOME.

Rogue
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indi
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2002 13:11
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Erm im sorry to bust your bubble but some user agreements dont allow the resale of some software.

http://www.lunarpixel.com/ is my new site
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2002 15:06
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technically the resale of Max is disallowed... unless you wipe it from your hard disk - it is a very odd affair.
some others are also very odd resale, which say they don't allow it but then later in the licence state the conditions for resale
Ever read the full 14page Licence to Windows9x? hehee real interesting read

personally no i REALLY don't think Max is worth it, but i don't have the luxary of choice which most people here - they have only Max for modeling here ... as soon as they installed Maya we were hacked and lost it, with no plans to reinstall for a while

most of the time i hate Microsoft, but thier visual studio software v6.0 was actually pretty cheap - especially for students as you can pickup standard on licence for £90/$120, which most kids can afford.

the point about prices isn't being able to actually earn to afford it, however what i don't think most kids understand is almost 2/3s of adults cash is spent before we even earn it!
So when we've paid for essentials like, lecky, water(which we can't f**king drink in here without worry of it doing us damage!!), internet, food, rent, etc...
we're talkin bare min for other essentials that are needed, like work on the car, upgrades for the PC(s) ...
once that is all done we can then spend out on luxuries

and unlike most peeps i'm paying 2 sets of bills cause of my house in the UK which i'm allowing my brother to live at cause he didn't wanna move with my mom or move to dads cause he wanted to goto college with his mates!

so ya know you can't possibly even come close to understand the anger i have when someone starts to actively support something that will cause my very delicate balance to go up further

you're also a very very anoying pain in my side at the moment, dislike being called a novice at anything let alone with stuff i've been using way before kids like you even understood howto turn on a computer

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Megaman X
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Posted: 24th Oct 2002 08:36
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We can not sell it? A OS I undestand, cause it's part of the computer when u buy a new one. But that's the most stupid thing I ever heard ( Not u stupid Indi, the terms are ). It's like if u buy a game and cannot sell it, or buy a car or house and cannot sell it. How we do then if I die and someone of my family should sell all my possessions?

I don't agree with that. Then u r buying something that it's not enterily urs. Well, that's my opinion and one more reason why peoples use those softs ilegally...
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indi
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Posted: 24th Oct 2002 10:30
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Yeah its a bit protective for sure.

In a real world situation if u paid for it but didnt register it or install it and just resell the box complete then I wouldnt see the harm in that.

http://www.lunarpixel.com/ is my new site
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Megaman X
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Posted: 24th Oct 2002 17:29
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Yeah, I agree. Like as Raven said, if u uninstall it from ur hard drive or so. Otherwise u are using a copy and it's still illegal. I am with u indi.

Games are ok to buy second hand, the only problem is that sometimes, that game have been cloned several times and probaly you will not be able to play multiplayer games. In my case, I rarely play multiplayer games ( only Counter-Strike, but I am pissed with wallhacks lol ) The same should be applied to a soft, like u could not update or so...
Well, they indeed just want da money...
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 25th Oct 2002 06:46
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Actually you'll see the point with application software is that your purchasing the licence rather than the actual software ... Windows is a good example - you are allowed to freely copy and use the software on any number of PCs, however it is illegal for that copies licence to be used as it is licenced to the user (or in OEM case the machine it was originally installed upon).

As the actual legalities of it all are a bit blurry effectively all it means is you have to wipe it because you've sold the software...
Its like a car, once you sell it you can use your spare set of keys to go do the grocery shopping

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 25th Oct 2002 06:47
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stupid edit button needed - lol
that last sentance should've been ->

It's like a car, once you sell it you CAN'T use your spare set of keys to take it and go grocery shopping.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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The Wendigo
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Location: A hole near the base of a tree in the US
Posted: 26th Oct 2002 23:12
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(To the above topic.)
Truespace is the best modeler! If you need cheep, then get TS4.3. I got it on deal for $100 and it has every feature you probably will need for Game programming (and then some).

By the way, Don't use parenthesis in senetences (It detracts the reader from the words )

1.00 GHZ processor, 256 MB RAM, GeForce 3 64MB, SB Live!, 8 cans of soda per day
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Megaman X
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Posted: 26th Oct 2002 23:33
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How about 3D Canvas? It's a nice price and I think it was good for my needs. The only thing is bad is that it can run slow on slower computers. Sudden crashes may happen too, but if u use win 98 u probaly r used with that

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
-Rogue
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pathfinder
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Posted: 30th Oct 2002 16:07
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still think lightwave is cool because its an all rounder but not the best in any one thing

you get

Bones, cloth, nurbs, Good UV tools, Bake Textures, good Modelling tools, Motion mixing. erm manual is a bit rubbish


*lightwave bump*

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Shadow Robert
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 31st Oct 2002 00:57
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lightwave has a nitch... it is the most outstanding renderer - closely followed by trueSpace, but as both of these products have has almost 15years experience on several platforms you'd expect nothing less.

problem with lightwave is it does require alot of learning to do even the basics, those who've grown up on it havn't really noticed - but anyone who wantes to just use it will find that it really isnt' a pick'n'play program.
really the best to start with is either Milkshape or trueSpace ... manuals maybe pants for them as well - but to be honest if you can't figure out the controls to either, really have no business picking up the 3D Mouse!

(don't flame me for that just my opinion)

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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