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Geek Culture / Linux for the Playstation2

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 11:53 Edited at: 20th Jul 2004 11:54
I was quite surprised to find this.
Although I know people have been saying 'yup, i added a Hard Disk to my PS2 and installed Gentoo on it... now it runs linux baby!'

I didn't actually realise that Sony have actually released an Official Linux Kit.

Playstation Linux 1.0

Needless to say I've actually sent away an order, going to convert my PS2 into something worth using. (besides Final Fantasy )
Just thought it would be something interesting to bring to ppl's attention incase they hadn't seen it before.



AlecM
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 12:19
how does it perform as a linux box? i would imagine like an old POS machine... Still, its cool to see this is actually being supported by sony. Unlike microsoft and the Xbox.


Buy it
Great Knight
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 12:44
Yeah thats pretty cool. Then I can use Java with it.

Are you a leader or follower.
Killswitch
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 18:09
Me thinks someone is trying to eat away at competitors profits *cough*M$*cough*

~It's a common mistake to make, the rules of the English langauge do not apply to insanity~
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Axelman
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 18:29 Edited at: 20th Jul 2004 18:30
Geez, Thats pretty damn cool, Wouldn'y mind getting that, need a new computer anyways so might aswell be added to my Ps2 (I felt like a pirate)

CURRENT PROJECT: Enemy At The Gates
DarkSin
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 18:41
Saw that on Tech TV but forgot all about it... will look more into it . Thanks for the reminder.


Powersoft
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 19:01
that is old news sorry raven... it has been out well over a 1 1/2 years


Create or Play? You choose!
Final Epsilon
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 00:19
yup. ^_^ i recall hearing about it a long time ago

However, i dont have a ps2... :-(
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 00:34
Quote: "that is old news sorry raven... it has been out well over a 1 1/2 years"


Linux on the PS2 wasn't news to me, but finding an official kit to do this was.
I had not heard of this at all either in the States or UK, so it is probably no doubt something briefly covered in some gaming mag.
(i use my PS2 for FF that is all)

Not sure how well this will run, after all it runs on a 300MHz Processor but that Processor is a 128bit RISC. So I reckon with standard Operations your probably talking equal speed to a 600MHz G4, still not amazingly fast but good enough.

Powersoft
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 01:33
but i saw it in a Official PS2 mag. with the same appearence as they one you found

but, what does it mater?


Create or Play? You choose!
Mnemonix
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 04:52
Interesting...

Visit the Db chat room, ask me for details!.
Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 05:01
Come on Raven, get with the times

I found out about this and an experimental Gamecube Linux kit a few months ago when I was in my Linux craze. The GC one is highly unstable.


Join the Revolution.
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Peter H
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 05:19 Edited at: 21st Jul 2004 05:20
i've figured out the perfect uses for all three gaming systems...

PS2-Final Fantasy
X-Box-Halo
GameCube-(lot's of cartoony games....i.e. zelda)


Formerly known as "DarkWing Duck"
GothOtaku
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 06:34
Quote: "X-Box-Halo"

But Halo's for PC as well and it wasn't that good of a game anyways.

But anyways, be careful everyone or SCO might try to sue Sony for infringing on their intellectual property by supporting Linux.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 06:51
Quote: "But anyways, be careful everyone or SCO might try to sue Sony for infringing on their intellectual property by supporting Linux"


Sony Computing Online will sue Sony for making a Distro Kit of Linux?
There is nothing against retailing Linux, you must make the LGPL source free and open for people to download; however you don't have to release anything of your own design.

Quote: "Come on Raven, get with the times

I found out about this and an experimental Gamecube Linux kit a few months ago when I was in my Linux craze. The GC one is highly unstable."


Sony haven't exactly made this a common knowlage product. The only thing I knew Sony's HDD was used for currently is Final Fantasy XI which still isn't out on the PS2 yet in either the UK or US.
Add to this I'm not exactly a 'Sony' fan, this actually came as a surprise to me to find an official Linux kit.

A Linux kit itself for the PS2, X-Box, GameCube is hardly news to me... the fan ones are close to useless as well.
Unlike you I've never seen a point in this whole 'Linux' crazy, it always has been and always will be a childs OS to me.

But, when a company releases an official version of something; to me that is a huge deal. It means that Sony are taking users of thier hardware seriously rather than pure games players.
People are always going to try to put Linux onto consoles, they always have ... for the life of my I don't actually understand why.

This should mean I can have a second development platform to tinker with now though.

GothOtaku
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 07:54
Quote: "Sony Computing Online will sue Sony for making a Distro Kit of Linux?
There is nothing against retailing Linux, you must make the LGPL source free and open for people to download; however you don't have to release anything of your own design.
"

No,I'm talking about how The SCO Group Inc. (the current owners of the AT&T variety of UNIX source code) are suing IBM, Red Hat, Novell, SGI, AutoZone, and DaimlerChrysler for infringing on their copyright and commercial use of Linux. They claim that Linux uses proprietary code obtained from the System V version of UNIX that they own. If their correct then everyone running Linux has to pay them between $200 - $2,000 for use of "their" operating system (Linux, which they had nothing to do with the design of). So far they haven't proved anything and it was made public that they recieve financial backing from Microsoft so most people refuse to pay them and continue using Linux saying that their claims are complete crap. Previous customers IBM and SGI (who released AIX and IRIX, respectively, based on UNIX code) had their liscences revoced (possibly against contract making it illegal to do so) but continue to actively distribute their products.

www.opensource.org/sco-vs-ibm.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO_v._IBM
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 19:02
Quote: " financial backing from Microsoft so most people refuse to pay them"

No, that was for payment to SCO for some licenses that Microsoft was using.


Are you sensitive enough?
Axelman
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 21:41
You Guys have probably heardof this before, But it seems pretty cool(I think atleast.) the Linux thing for the PS2 says that the package is mainly for linux hobbyists and programmers. well, as most of the people on this site are programmers so i decided to tell you guys about a BASIC programming language on the PS2, its called yaBASIC. It's pretty much exactly the same as DBC (Commandswise) but not as powerful, because it can't use 3d objects (I don't think so anyways),But it's got all the 2d graphics commands like DOT and CIRCLE.
I had it on an old demo disk of mine, and it looks pretty cool, it uses the SUPER BASIC commands such as Print and Input, But also usees the same loops such as FOR NEXT.

For more info goto http://www.yabasic.co.uk/

CURRENT PROJECT: Enemy At The Gates
GothOtaku
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 23:04
Quote: "No, that was for payment to SCO for some licenses that Microsoft was using.
"

Officially, yes, but there seems to be evidence that this was done on purpose to hurt Linux which is probably the product Microsoft wants to see die first (they already own at least 30% of Apple so if they die they'd actually lose money initially plus they need a competitor to keep from being declared a monopoly and shut down).

http://www.opensource.org/halloween/halloween10.html
Peter H
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 23:06
halo is for PC but you cant play Co-Op on the PC(you know two player missions?)

which is just about the only reason i play halo


Formerly known as "DarkWing Duck"
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2004 11:37
Quote: "Officially, yes, but there seems to be evidence that this was done on purpose to hurt Linux which is probably the product Microsoft wants to see die first (they already own at least 30% of Apple so if they die they'd actually lose money initially plus they need a competitor to keep from being declared a monopoly and shut down)."


o_0 ... dude they're trying to out Linux because it's free, which gives people the perfect platform to attack them from.
It has been proven that 90% of all Hackers, Virus developers and Warez hosts use Linux. 99% of them are targeting other Operating Systems, namely Microsoft Windows.

For Microsoft it is simple... Get rid of Linux, get rid of 90% of thier problems.
Microsoft officially back SGI Irix, Sun Solaris (Irix) and Apple MacOSX (Unix)

This is furthered by the fact that .Net 2.0 happens to be MultiPlatform, and will run on Unix/Irix (but not Linux, Red Hat have purchased the source but they're not allowed to include it in thier Fedora Core.)

Microsoft aren't against Linux because it's a 'threat' to them as a competitor, they're against it because the users are basically acting like damn terrorists against thier OS.
Apple have recently stated along similar lines.

Although people could argue this is because Microsoft own a large portion of them, the fact of the matter remains. Linux is used for the abuse of other Operating Systems and one solution to stop this is to make sure it is no longer Free.

Personally I whole heartidly agree with that. I'm currently working an Operating System of my own, and there will be a free version... what I am trying to make sure against is that it won't be used as a platform of terror against Microsoft or Apple.

Quite frankly if Linux cannot compete at the public level without people resorting to virus and hacking attacks to claim Windows is unstable and full of security holes, then it doesn't derserve to be competiting at all!

GothOtaku
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2004 13:45
Well, Microsoft used to back System V derivatives becasue they used to have a lisence to resell the source code (as Xenix) I think that Linux users are usually the virus makers (although not always) because Linux is the third most used operating system around the world and Microsoft's purposely tried to kill off Linux before on more than one occasion. Also, it's not that hard to develop viruses for Windows, I'm sure we'd see a bunch for *nix and Mac if it were possible to make them but it's too hard but with Windows it's a piece of cake, I've made a few test viruses in about 15 minutes.

You should read these:
http://opensource.org/halloween/
Killswitch
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2004 23:24
What're you writing your OS in Raven (ASM I assume), how long is it/will it be (Windows is hitting the millions isn't it?).

~It's a common mistake to make, the rules of the English langauge do not apply to insanity~
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2004 23:52
Making a virus for MacOSX (Unix) and Linux is a peice of piss.
Infact it is far simpler to work around them unlike Windows because your not hacking any files just to randomly do damage, you have the source to most of what is available to you allowing you to make precision attacks.

Although this is a rare thing to happen to the public sector, it isn't unheard of. (SuSE could be done for false advertising on that key note)
This is more restricted to businesses and people comprising these things for devastatings attacks not just random terrorism.

No doubt you'll say something like 'well if the Windows/Mac user can make virus for Linux then why don't they?'
Simple fact of the matter is what would the point in doing so?

Nerd circles revolved around the almighty Linux. If you don't use Linux as a hacker/virus developer you are not considered worthy and most of these freaks do this for kudos from thier fellow developers in these circles.
Breaking Linux is childs play... breaking Windows is a challenge.

You can crash both with a virus or do silly things to both; that won't get you much respect. Actually getting a virus to do something complex without crashing Windows (remember Windows is designed to actually crash itself if something isn't working as it should) ... that is a challenge.

It gives them kudos points with thier peers and more over it gives them fodder in the whole 'Windows is Unsecure argument'.

Quote: "What're you writing your OS in Raven (ASM I assume), how long is it/will it be (Windows is hitting the millions isn't it?)."


Started it a year ago in NASM, used a few of Bochs data and BeOS to check against. Decided the best action was to first create an environment kernel, then create an asm to develop upon this.
This has since been built upon into a C-Style language...
It is still long from release worthy at the moment, so many features need to be created, sorted and tested.

Currently it runs fine and interchangeable on my Macintosh, PS2 and Cryix system.
However this is only a basic File Interface, System Metrics, Software OpenGL (VGA) and only runs native programs currently.
There is ALOT to still go though.

Killswitch
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 00:13
Nice one, what're you calling it? The Raven? Nevermore...

~It's a common mistake to make, the rules of the English langauge do not apply to insanity~
[IMG][/IMG]
GothOtaku
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 01:10
With Windows 15 lines of VBscript and I have a a propagating virus that uses flaws in Outlook to spread. True, in Linux writing a destructive virus is really easy but getting it to spread is hard because it's usually thwarted by needing root access to spread on a single system or access to online servers to spread to others. Also, killing Windows is a piece of cake, just delete everything or destroy the registry and they're forced to reinstall where as in Linux they have to get root access first and then they can destroy files which can usually be replaced fairly easily.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 01:31
Quote: "With Windows 15 lines of VBscript and I have a a propagating virus that uses flaws in Outlook to spread."


Did you test it? Microsoft Fixxes security flaws on a daily basis, only Gentoo can boast the same.

Quote: "Also, killing Windows is a piece of cake, just delete everything or destroy the registry and they're forced to reinstall"


XP doesn't let you touch important files unless you do it at the asm level or have an authorised GUIID.
You can interupt and intercept important files, but not alter them... the Kernel just says 'no'.

Quote: " Linux they have to get root access first and then they can destroy files which can usually be replaced fairly easily. "


Wrong, you only need root access if your accessing files via SH Directory. You can complete move around that and catalog everything very quickly and easily if you access using your 'own' routines.
You take away files it might not stop Linux booting up, but you fail to see a bigger problem... it kills hardware (Windows DOESN'T!).
Windows is designed to crash, halt, shut-down and refuse to boot up; if given files are unaccessible or corrupt. This is to prevent hardware failiar. If you don't believe this is the case, I currently have a 13GB Hdd which blew out it's access circuitry in Linux during some routine networking, which I didn't realise it did until I put it into Windows to repartition and format.
It then intern decided to access and alter all sorts of weird files before going into a read loop which it can't get out of... that HDD is now technically dead.

If Windows didn't have those fail-safes in place I would be looking at 3 dead HDD and 2 dead Removeable Media Drives.
Rather than 1 dead HDD and the bitch of having to reinstall Windows.

An hour out of my life is better than the loss of more than 200GB of data which is irriplaceable.

Quote: "n Linux writing a destructive virus is really easy but getting it to spread is hard because it's usually thwarted by needing root access to spread on a single system or access to online servers to spread to others"


You realise that all Linux Distro's have an email client which seems to be bog standard, looks like Outlook, acts like Outlook and actually has the same security flaws as outlook.
using it and scanning for somethnig like EmmLM using that to access the system to create/destory programs via the CLI is quite frankly childs play. See a major difference here is your outlook virus would rely on the user having a setup email account, and then it has to pass through several areas of windows, anyone with Norton/McAffee will have it picked up and destoryed in the background without them noticing.
And if that doesn't get it a popup blocker will (because of how Outlook access' the net) this is ontop of if the user doesn't have default security measures and Windows isn't upto to date to have potencially stopped what your trying to do.

So your talking what, 1/80 people will be suspcetable to it.
Linux can access ports directly, you don't need SH to access anything (proxying through other programs who have access though would be the simplist way) ... which means you create the same thing for Linux 80/80 people will be susceptable.
Add to this when Microsoft learns of a new flaw they bridge it immediately (SP2 actually has tigher security than fort knox, i very much doubt anything scripted can get out even with default installation), with Linux you have to wait for the next distro... which is anyones guess. And that is all depending no if your problem is a high enough priority.

-- // --

The OS is Codenamed 'Evolution', Killswitch.

GothOtaku
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 02:52
Any Linux system that falls to what you said above would have to practically try to be that insecure. In Linux, you can't modify files you don't own. Therefore, you usually need root access to change the files that would kill it. Even if it got into a single user and tried doing sudo it'd still have to know at least that users password. Also, Outlook clones on Linux tend not to automatically run any script it finds in an attachemnt like Outlook did (plus even though Microsoft "fixed it" enough people still use the old outlook to make it work). As for Linux destroying hardware, what were you using? Any big-name distributor would have those problems fixed before release it'd only be a problem if you used some no-name distro you got online or a version marked as beta or unsafe. They also providing immediate updates for known problems very quickly. I've gotten better response from RedHat regarding bug fixes than I've ever gotten from Microsoft.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 03:22
There are some application access which are global in Linux... the biggest and probably worse offender being gcc using an install/make.
It'll do a rundown of what it needs to do, and all you have to do is put in a little code that tells it what needs to be accessed.
Poof it all goes up in smoke.

And if someone is well versed in the kernel, enough to create something malicious they can quite easily and skip and jump throught all of the back doors even with a professional lock down. (let's face it there are very very very few professionals who can say they can lock down Linux)

As for the Linux, i was using Debian-Knoppix x86; but i've also had hardware die on Red Hat and SuSE, not just older version but recent builds like SuSE 9.1 and Red Hat 10.3.
Although RedHat is better at bug responses than microsoft; you have to remember there is a slight difference in company size...

RatHat as a company is about the same size as the software developer i work for. (we're a large games company but for a software company it's a small size)... Add to this Microsoft is in 4billion Home/Businesses world wide, RedHat is only in a fraction of that. Last tally i believe it came to 350,000.
Sure still alot but compaired to Microsoft, not even close.

Provided you send a report to them electronically the reports a filed in thier computers and sorted. The bugs are put on todo lists, but a majority are actually hardware manufacturers making buggy drivers because they're trying to cater to all Windows not just one.

GothOtaku
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 04:28
Most *nix systems require you to be root or use sudo when doing a make/build install and most servers don't have gcc on them at all. Also, there is no RedHat 10.3, 9 Pro was the last official release to use the numbering so I'm guessing you're refering to Enterprise, Desktop, or Fedora Core which do have hardware problems (I've heard of nothing fatal though) as do most modern *nix systems. In fact, I've had more hardware problems with Windows over Linux. I've had Windows NT completely kill a new Dell and Windows XP has mangled 2 of my HDs but the only hardware problems I've had are lack of drivers using RedHat.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 04:37
Red Hat 10.3 Enterprise, it is the next step from Red Hat unlike the others. I've never had Windows destory any hardware in all of my years using it.
This said i've been a qualified Microsoft engineer for almost 8years now... so i know far more of what i'm doing.

Sure you need to use sudo/root, but you can do it using the admins account. Most servers leave GCC on them, as I said... there are very very few professional Linux people. Alot of admins don't have a clue.

there are more ways around it though, i'm just throwing out examples; sure you can't do it identical to vbscript/javascript (unless your using Mozilla... then MWHAHAAHAAHAAH) but this said the past few years Microsoft has stopped alot of this stuff with IE6 or rather ComCtrl6.dll.
If people are still using Windows 98 and don't update, then quite honestly they deserve everything they get... like someone using the old 2.0 Linux Kernel.

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