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Geek Culture / .NET Rocks!

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Toby Quan
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 02:54
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I just found a cool weekly radio program hosted by MSDN. If you are a Microsoft programmer, check it out!

It's an entertaining show, filled with programming talk, and IT humor, and good music! Topics include, Web Servcies, VB, C#, SQL Server, SOAP, new Microsoft technology, etc.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/dotnetrocks/Default.aspx

http://www.franklins.net/dotnetrocks/

I'm listening to it now while I'm at work coding a .NET application to share data with an offsite company over the web.
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Ian T
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 04:05
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Cute


Oh how perfect...
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Mentor
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 04:14 Edited at: 7th Aug 2004 04:26
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I originaly thought .net was agood idea, but now I still use it but see it as the start of the slippery slope, other people are going to realise whats happening with .net, it`s realy clever in a greedy sort of way, pretty soon .net software will be supported as standard with Longhorn and XP.net adopters, and later most software will only be able to run with a MS proprietery backbone installed (.net framework, thats why you can`t distribute it freely like DX, they retain the copyright)), the ability to run any new software will now be locked to the Microsoft mantra and any other OS running .net framework software will look and behave just like windoze, then rolling incompatability (a game MS play best) will set in and before you know it we will be stuck with MS OS running software that will only run under a .net MS backbone (slowly as well ), ensuring that if you want to run a DB program on a MS system it had better be DBPro.net, or you won`t be coding diddley, effectivley, MS will have made the PC into a virtual PC that will ONLY run MS software (or software developed with their tools to their constraints), I hope I`m wrong, but I think I aint, anyway, if I am wrong I will like it, being proven wrong in this case would feel so good

Mentor.

PC1: P4 hyperthreading 3ghz, 1gig mem, 2x160gig hd`s, Nvidia FX5900 gfx, 6 way surround sound, PC2: AMD 1.2ghz, 512mb ram, FX5200 ultra gfx, stereo 16 bit soundblaster.
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MiR
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 04:54
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Sorry to hijack the thread but could someone tell me what .NET actually is? Is it sometype of API and what the hell does it have to do with hotmail and msn messenger?


Jam on mother f**ker.
Libera tu mente y te liberaras.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 04:59
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Visit : http://www.microsoft.com/net/


Come to the UK Convention on the 23rd & 24th of October
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Mentor
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 05:04
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it`s sorta like directx for programs, allows a C++,Java,VB etc coder to use common functions and interchange data via network or just from program to program with common interfaces etc, call a file requester and you get a standard file requester with all the buttons etc, no matter what language you code in, VB and C++ coders can share the same datasets etc, VERY powerfull and very slick, I have C++.net and VB.net, not used them that much, but they are very nice for running up fast apps or tools, I guess I have barely scratched the surface, the main appeal is they make you look like a coder genious in under a day

Mentor.

PC1: P4 hyperthreading 3ghz, 1gig mem, 2x160gig hd`s, Nvidia FX5900 gfx, 6 way surround sound, PC2: AMD 1.2ghz, 512mb ram, FX5200 ultra gfx, stereo 16 bit soundblaster.
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Jeku
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 06:14
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Hmmmm, sounds interesting... I am going to get a free copy from my University next month and check it out

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Toby Quan
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 06:40
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You could define .NET in a couple of different ways.

#1 - It is a programming language that is currently going head to head against Java, IBM and PHP.

#2 - It is much more than a programming language. It is an infrastructure for which programmers can use different languages to write upon.

#3 - It is just Microsoft's 2002-2004 answer to problems. It will be replaced soon by something totally new, and in ten years from now, people will look back on it and laugh, in the same way that we look back and laugh at Windows 3.1 today.

Personally, I love it. I write all new programs in VB.NET. I won't use VB6 anymore to make new programs. I like its ability to create and interact with Web Services, and it's totally object oriented.
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 06:51
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Quote: "Personally, I love it. I write all new programs in VB.NET. I won't use VB6 anymore to make new programs. I like its ability to create and interact with Web Services, and it's totally object oriented. "


Yay, I am glad people are starting to catch on


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Toby Quan
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 07:04
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@CattleRustler

Have you listened to the .NET Rocks radio show yet?
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 07:07
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I only used VB .Net because the stupid people at Sage dont to C interfaces for Sage Line 50...

Didn't particularly like it - seemed slow and cumbersome. And its going to be fun getting the .Net security settings correct so that a normal executable can call a .Net program.


Come to the UK Convention on the 23rd & 24th of October
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 09:03
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Quote: "#1 - It is a programming language that is currently going head to head against Java, IBM and PHP."


.NET is not a programming language and never will be. You cannot compare it to PHP, although a comparison with Java is a little more accurate.

Quote: "It is just Microsoft's 2002-2004 answer to problems."


They obviously play too much music on that radio station and not enough developer talk Microsoft designed the .NET platform years and years ago, it's no short-term thing, it is their development vision for the next decade at least.

Quote: "I write all new programs in VB.NET"


Ah-ha, that explains it.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
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Toby Quan
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 10:42
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Hold on now ... let's remain calm. After all, it's just software.

Point #1

When I compare it to PHP, I am comparing "ASP.NET" to "PHP". When I am comparing it to java, I am comparing "C#" to "Java".

I was just trying to help someone understand it. It's not really a programming language, but programming languages are definitely a part of it (VB.NET, C#, etc)

Point #2

A lot can change in a decade. Look how far we have come in the last 10 years! I went from VB3 to VB7 (.NET 2003). All I'm saying is that things change so fast. .NET might be something totally obsolete in 10 years. The fact is, you don't know the future, and neither do I. All we do know is that when it comes to computers, things change very fast.

Point #3

So, are you making fun of me because I use what some may consider a less-powerful language? Because I use Visual Basic, I'm not smart enough to handle a real programming language?

What's next? Are you going to make fun of me because I make my games using DarkBasic instead of C++?

I didn't think so.

Look - I was just posting some info about a cool radio station. That's all.
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DrakeX
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 11:05
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toby - not everyone is making fun of you, only rich (how strange and out of the ordinary..). everyone else is making fun of .net

personally i'll have to agree with mentor. i see no other use for a viretual-machine based language that only runs on one platform. do you see MS jumping to make .net framework for mac or sun workstations? why ELSE would they have a VM that only works on PCs and in windows?

i personally don't think .net brings much new to the programming scene. it's a prettier way to do what is already possible in other languages. but what i really don't get is why they didn't choose to make it compiled. i just really don't like interpreted / JIT-compiled languages. they seem really..... sketchy.

OK enough of that damn DBP fanboy banner. i'm NOT a DBP fanboy in any way. i haven't used DBP in over a year, and i don't really plan on using it again.
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 12:25
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I dont know how many times I need to say this: a .NET language is not interpretted. It runs out of a true asm exe, just like 6 and 5 and 4 did. Its jit compiled at runtime to be machine independent. I am very very surprised at Rich's comments, I thought he was more evolved than that - that last bit sounded way too much like the snooty C++ programmers of the older days looking down their noses at vb guys. Hate to burst everyones bubble but C# and VB.NET compile to a CLR which when executed are exactly the same machine code.


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 17:53
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Quote: "CLR which when executed are exactly the same machine code.
"

Does sound as though its interpreted though - like Java...


Come to the UK Convention on the 23rd & 24th of October
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Arkheii
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 18:30
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According to my C# book, the resulting exe is actually compiled to intermediate language, but when you run that exe on your PC, another compiler will compile that to machine code and optimize it specifically for your CPU, so it runs as fast as possible. The resulting machine code is then stored in the memory so it can be reused later without having to recompile, until the computer is rebooted or shut down.

That's what the book says. So, it's safe to say that .Net is not interpretted. That explains why the resulting exes have a short delay when run for the first time.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 18:38
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Quote: "When I compare it to PHP, I am comparing "ASP.NET" to "PHP". When I am comparing it to java, I am comparing "C#" to "Java"."


Err, that isn't what you actually posted though. If your intention was to help people to understand it, don't mislead them like that?

Comparing .NET as a "platform" (and I use that term loosely, because to call it a platform is to under-value it) to Java as a platform - now that makes PERFECT sense, especially as a lot of the .NET core is "borrowed" ideas from Java anyway. But you cannot compare .NET to any language, because it's not a language. See what I mean?

Quote: "A lot can change in a decade. All I'm saying is that things change so fast. .NET might be something totally obsolete in 10 years. The fact is, you don't know the future, and neither do I."


That's why I asked what they actually played on that radio station - you see when it comes to .NET we DO know its planned future. I remember being at a large Microsoft Developers Conference when they were just getting things under-way with .NET, back in around 2001, and their roadmap for the future was very well defined and extendeds much further than you are aware. This information is out there for anyone to read. Computers change quickly, yes, but .NET can be considered an infrastructure, one MS has based all of its core languages and new operating systems on! That isn't something you discard overnight. Check out the .NET roadmaps on MSDN (or where-ever they keep their white papers now).

Quote: "So, are you making fun of me because I use what some may consider a less-powerful language? Because I use Visual Basic, I'm not smart enough to handle a real programming language?"


No, I just find it amusing that people move from VBx to VB.NET and don't give C# a second glance, when in actual fact it's probably the easier language of the two to use!

Quote: "I am very very surprised at Rich's comments, I thought he was more evolved than that"


Forgive me for not "appreciating" mis-informative posts. I'm evolved enough to have spent years developing in C#, I understand the power of the .NET framework, I just hate seeing it compared to something that just doesn't make sense and the comparisons are usually done by people who don't really appreciate what .NET is, but have just progressed up from, say, VBx to VB.NET.

Quote: "Its jit compiled at runtime to be machine independent."


That isn't strictly true though All programs compile into PEs right? (portable executables) no matter if they are .NET or standard Windows ones. A Windows PE is handed over to the operating system to run. A .NET PE is handed over to the CLR to run inside of its own virtual machine. Therefore to say its compiled to be machine indepedant isn't totally true - it's compiled to be 100% dependant on one single machine only! The .NET virtual machine

It doesn't compile into a true Windows PE - this is why when you want a .NET program to use say Windows resources you use the NET-to-COM operations, which in turn pass your calls through a set of functions.

The advantage being of course that if MS do ever release a CLR for another operating system, your code will run out of the box. That's a big "if" though! They've had 5 years and we've haven't seen anything yet. The most fascinating part as far as I am concerned is that the virtual machine is so powerful, you can actually write your own programming languages for it through IL! Now that's cool.

Cheers,

Rich

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
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MiR
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 19:53
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That discussion cleard up my doubts about .NET. Well all but one. What the hell has all that got to do with hotmail? Why do micrsoft insist on calling my hotmail account a ".NET passport"?
C# sounds more interesting by the minute.
Thank you Mentor and TobyQuan for your explanations.


Jam on mother f**ker.
Libera tu mente y te liberaras.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 20:37
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.Net is without a doubt Microsoft's long-term plan.
Surprisingly to most it has absolutely nothing to do with thier own operating system.

The solution is possibly Microsoft's one an only unique idea, but credit to them it's a bloody good one.

Basically this is a 3 Tier System

Executable Code -> Runtime Libraries -> Asm Core

Whilst you can say 'well this is just like Java', no it isn't.
The libraries are sets of functions like WinAPI and DirectX for example, these are written in code which use the Asm Core to recompile themselves for *any* system they are placed upon.
The Executable code is also made up of these library calls and system Recompiling.

The whole system hinges around the Asm Core which is what works are the recompile translator.

What the end result is, is your code is 100% Operating System Independant... but without that speed loss that Java has because it isn't constantly being translated from pure functions, it is recompiled then ran.

Alot of *nix based programs work the same way, as they'll compile from the source specifically for that machine. Difference being here is that .Net you can move to a different machine and it will see the Asm Core is different and recompile.
Also as the compiling is done on Runtime as and when things are accessed what happens is your core executable code changes but nothig else, so it is compiling much much smaller programs.

The program size overhead is roughly 1.5:1, which is about the same as Macintosh/*nix programs. And the speed takes roughly a 5-8% drop in speed which if your making computer games is a huge difference but for applications it doesn't matter.

It is an incredible system, however what it does is actually mean Microsoft can finally get a true computer market monopoly without breaking any monopoly rules.
.Net is Licenseable for any system you choose, but the problem is in order to support it, an OS gives away rights.

So if Linux will support it really comes down to the whole 'EULA' problem which has caused so much industry strife.
Microsoft are forceing out free operating systems, although the next Windows is amazing and all; if it does well makes no odds as next generation OS

Sun Solaris 11, MacOSX.1 and Windows 6/Nx

they're all going to be able to use .Net ... which means no matter which OS you have, your going to be running Microsoft technology.


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GothOtaku
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Posted: 10th Aug 2004 07:52
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.NET is Microsoft's way of trying to get rid of Java. However, unlike Java and it's VM the .NET one is very, very good and supports more languages. .NET is also being ported to a bunch of systems and a project has been started to write an open source .NET VM and C# compiler which is coming along really well. Personally, while .NET is easily the best of the non-scripting language VMs I dislike the way MS is making it an integrated part of their OSes because it still slows the system down even if it is one of the best made VMs.
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