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Geek Culture / I, Robot

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 08:06
Everyone should go to see it - its great.

One thing that it does detail is that, if we ever write a decent AI system (which is doubtful anyway), you have to be careful with it.


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Neofish
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 08:08 Edited at: 8th Aug 2004 08:09
take thee, Cyborg, as my lawfully wedded machine..........

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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 08:11
yeeughh!


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Neofish
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 08:12
i didnt name it I, Robot did i?!? its just askign for trouble

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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 08:14
ah ha...


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Neofish
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 08:15
yeah! makes sense now, dunt read ur own title of the post then!

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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 08:16
I haven't seen the movie, but AI has a long way to go. Movies like Spielburg's "AI" are not very likely, as this implies that a machine can have a soul (not trying to make this a religious conversation), and can be afraid to "die".

AI is only as powerful as the person who writes it. And we can only program true AI as far as we understand the way the human thought process functions (which we do not understand at all right now). Something that may be of interest to you Artificial Intelligence fans out there is that humans are in the process of mapping all of the chemicals that produce thought in the human brain. It may take years (and I mean years) to get it correctly, but when we do, it will give us a whole new perspective on programming AI, to the point that true sentient thought could be possible!

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Neofish
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 08:22
yep those films are wierd

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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 08:53 Edited at: 8th Aug 2004 08:55
Quote: "to the point that true sentient thought could be possible!
"

But only if it can be programmed, which is doubtful. The problem is that, if it is programmatically possible you have to be careful about whether it can learn on its own and whether it would be able to circumvent any inbuilt protection.

The other problem will be the human factor - AI software to be pratical would have to be 100% bug-free first time to prevent any unwanted and unknown side effects.

Secondly a rouge programmer could change slightly anything along the line, and unless adequate safe guards are built in, you could have a problem.

However, even having machines building machines could be a problem...

Either way, you could end up with killer robots. As long as they done end up like the Terminator, it should be okay.

Quote: "yeah! makes sense now, dunt read ur own title of the post then"

It would help if I could understand what you were typing in the first place.


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Neofish
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 09:06
look at apollo life

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Dave J
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 09:27
Is this another Will Smith comedy/action or is it meant to be serious? The trailer looked like it was going to be part comedy but a couple of my mates said it was serious. o.O


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Ian T
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 09:30
The initial trailer billed it as a part comedy just because it's Will Smith, but it's actually a fairly serious movie. I haven't, but my parents have and they said it was an okay action movie, a bit above the average. Nothing to do with I, Robot though-- it was renamed from Hardwired and has nothing to do with Issac Asimov past mentions of the Three Laws. Not that that's a bad thing... I don't like Asimov's writing much .

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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 09:34 Edited at: 8th Aug 2004 09:47
who??

i think this mite happen with advanced AI:
http://pulse.dbspot.com/pics/bot.zip

warning this is 3.6 megs!

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Jeku
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 09:49
Quote: "I don't like Asimov's writing much"




I, Robot is my favourite book of all time. TCA --- if you've read the book, would you recommend the movie?

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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 09:50
ah so the guy rote a book called I, robot

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Ian T
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 10:00
It's not because I just like 'new crap' either... I like Heinlein and a good deal of other old sci-fi. But I disagree strongly with Asimov's general worldview, which comes through *very* strongly in his writings. Especially such works as The Bicentennial Man.

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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 10:20 Edited at: 8th Aug 2004 10:32
Quote: "I haven't seen the movie, but AI has a long way to go. Movies like Spielburg's "AI" are not very likely, as this implies that a machine can have a soul (not trying to make this a religious conversation), and can be afraid to "die".

AI is only as powerful as the person who writes it. And we can only program true AI as far as we understand the way the human thought process functions (which we do not understand at all right now). Something that may be of interest to you Artificial Intelligence fans out there is that humans are in the process of mapping all of the chemicals that produce thought in the human brain. It may take years (and I mean years) to get it correctly, but when we do, it will give us a whole new perspective on programming AI, to the point that true sentient thought could be possible!
"


Well we do not know nothing about the human brain.
The human brain uses a neural network to process the input data. I don't want to give you a definition about NN now, but the point is, NNs are the basement for pattern recognition, learning and whatever makes human so "special".
Now there are already robots with NNs who are able to learn, or who are able to generalize.

But there are 2 things that aren't possible.
The human brain does not only connect neurons, it also has a memory.
The memory however is dynamic, which means by thinking you're enlarging your memory.
This is just impossible with a robot.

Moreover, it will probably never be possible to reproduce the perfection and aesthetics of the nature.
It isn't possible to achieve a perfect co-ordination like some animals for example.
Mobile Robots are still slow, creeping, struggling, awkward thingies which are far away from a hunting tiger.

And IF there's any "serious" content in the film "I, Robot", I can only laugh.
There really isn't any serious content in such a representation of the AI.
The theory of super intelligent robots taking over the world isn't only VERY OLD (Terminator, Matrix, AI... etc etc), there also isn't anything serious about it. It's just a sign for the a bad trend of hollywood: Uncreative, boring stories + some expensive special FX + some famous actor(s) = successful movie.
"Ladykillers" as another example. "Ladykillers" is brilliant British movie of the 70s. Now because hollywood is so extremely uncreative, they just steal the story, buy Tom Hanks and make a rubbish movie out of a masterpiece.

I'm sick and tired of this and I won't support movies like that anymore. I recently watched a film from Iceland called "Nòi Albinòi" and in my opinion, this really is the best thing i've seen for this year - better than any money-making project from hollywood.

EDIT: I, Robot is a film of a book?? Oh....
Well i still don't like the movie


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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 10:29
Quote: "But only if it can be programmed, which is doubtful. The problem is that, if it is programmatically possible you have to be careful about whether it can learn on its own and whether it would be able to circumvent any inbuilt protection."


Not saying it is possible now. AI is only as good as we can program it. We can only program it as good as we understand human thought. With these new discoveries in the field of biochemical psychology, a better understanding of the nature of human thought processes will be atained. And with those discoveries, we will begin to understand the basic algorithims of human thought, and thus, be able to emulate it better in technology. In time, as we begin to witness brain functions in action during such complex brain patterns as creativity, love, fear, and pain, we can then reconstruct those from a technical standpoint, instead of the way we do it now.

The way that we look at AI now is similar to playing a PlayStation game, and then sitting down and trying to reprogram it. What we are looking at, and trying to recreate, is the end-product of the human thought process, instead of what is actually creating that end result. Trying to emulate a PS game only by looking at the end result will come up with a very bad recreation. But if you look at the mechanics that make up the game program, you can make a perfectly emulated game. This will be what programmers may be able to accomplish once we map the human brain and understand the mechanics of what truly make it tick.

Quote: "The other problem will be the human factor - AI software to be pratical would have to be 100% bug-free first time to prevent any unwanted and unknown side effects."


Are you trying to say that humans have no bugs in their programming? Haha!

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Neofish
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 10:35
apparently its not the film of a book (unless i cant read) just same name

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Tomy
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 10:44 Edited at: 8th Aug 2004 10:44
Quote: "The way that we look at AI now is similar to playing a PlayStation game, and then sitting down and trying to reprogram it. What we are looking at, and trying to recreate, is the end-product of the human thought process, instead of what is actually creating that end result. Trying to emulate a PS game only by looking at the end result will come up with a very bad recreation. But if you look at the mechanics that make up the game program, you can make a perfectly emulated game. This will be what programmers may be able to accomplish once we map the human brain and understand the mechanics of what truly make it tick.
"


NNs aren't emulations of the AI! NN IS real AI.
And PS games don't use NNs that's for sure.

Quote: "
In time, as we begin to witness brain functions in action during such complex brain patterns as creativity, love, fear, and pain, we can then reconstruct those from a technical standpoint, instead of the way we do it now.
"


Well those feelings aren't actually AI in my opinion.
Here's my explanation:
Every creature needs a goal in his life. Our natural goal is to reproduce and survive.
My theory is that those feelings are just a way to achieve this goal.
Young children don't have those feelings, they learn them.
This means a robot wouldn't need to be able to love. it just depends on the natural goal it has.

Quote: "AI is only as good as we can program it."


This also not 100%ly true i think. There are already robots who learned things, which weren't planned.

But apart from that i agree with you

EDIT:

Quote: "apparently its not the film of a book (unless i cant read) just same name"


Even worse


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Neofish
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 10:48
just dunt give the bot the aim to wipe out hiumanity, game or no!

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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 11:11
Quote: "NNs aren't emulations of the AI! NN IS real AI.
And PS games don't use NNs that's for sure."


Sorry, not quite sure what you mean by NN.

Quote: "And PS games don't use NNs that's for sure."


The PS thing was a metaphor. Of course that is not like programming AI. I think you missed my point.

The subject was I,Robot, so I was reffering to human-like AI. Of course there are tons of different forms of AI, but I was meaning Humanoid. The programming of human-like AI cannot advance past a certain point until we disect the mechanics of the human brain. This disection may be underway as we speak.

If you ask any psychologist, they will tell you that we are only getting our first glimpse of the human consciousness, and what makes up the processes that we call thought.

A computer may have "learned" something that was not planned, but not in the way that we understand to be human learning.

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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 11:12
Oh sorry, nueral networks

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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 11:14 Edited at: 8th Aug 2004 11:15
Quote: "NN IS real AI."


Depends on what your standard and definitions of AI are. Humanoid AI has not truely been touched yet from a psychological standpoint.

EDIT: For an example of true humanoid AI, look at the fictional character Data from Star Trek:TNG.

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Ian T
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 11:16
The human brain is a quantum network that fires reactions with no apparant cause. Until we completely understand that aspect of the human brain-- which I'm betting we never will-- we'll never be able to make 'real' AI.

Neofish
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 11:19
not without a system that learns, from childhood, like we do, they will work differently but be similar

sorry for typos and simple lang: cant see keyboard

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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 11:28 Edited at: 8th Aug 2004 11:29
Quote: "The human brain is a quantum network that fires reactions with no apparant cause. Until we completely understand that aspect of the human brain-- which I'm betting we never will-- we'll never be able to make 'real' AI."


No apparent cause? If that were true, than we would all be running around just doing random things (run left,cry,run right,scream,jump,banghead on ground). That is not true.

As far as saying it will never happen, I would beg to differ. I will do some digging on the net, but the mapping of the human brain was huge news about a year and a half ago. The scientists involved claimed that it would take several years to map all the neuro-transmitters at work in the human brain layer-by-layer, but it is only a matter of time. The brain is not a complex enigma that runs on random. The brain functions actually very similar to a computer.

I'm not saying that we can have Datas anytime soon, but I believe that it will happen. Maybe sooner than you think.

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Ian T
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 11:37
Quote: "No apparent cause? If that were true, than we would all be running around just doing random things (run left,cry,run right,scream,jump,banghead on ground). That is not true."


No, it's not. 'no apparant cause' does not mean random. Just because we can't observe something doesn't mean it doesn't have a controlling force.

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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 11:42
banging ur head on the ground would not achiev ethe goal so it wouldnt happen under normal situs: mouse is rite

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The Lynx
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 11:53
"I, Robot" in a nutshell



Oh no! Chrissy had used her powers to turn herself into a hideous man-eating giant!
Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 11:59 Edited at: 8th Aug 2004 12:00
Take bio-pharmacology and the causes will become apparent . Thats what the research is trying to map out. What the "apparent cause" for the firings of what neuro-transmitters to what receptor sites.

A very basic neuro-transmitter to research is Serotonin (5-HTP). 5-HTP makes you happy. That is at the most cause and effect level. But what makes your body release 5-HTP to the 5-HTP receptor sites? That is what we are trying to discover, some of which has already become "apparent". "Apparent" is perspective. Through another's perspective, it may have a very apparent what causes these to be released, creating the thoughts linked to them.

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Scraggle
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 13:20 Edited at: 8th Aug 2004 13:23
From what I can tell the film I, Robot is based on the book Caliban by Roger McBride Allen, which is a book based on the positronic creations of Isaac Asimov in his book I, Robot (which, incidentaly, is a collection of short stories) and others like it.

I have read most of Asimovs robot books and loved them all. I have also read all of McBride Allens robot books and loved them equally. So, I am really hoping the film lives up to my expectations!

ionstream
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 13:38
Quote: "sorry for typos and simple lang: cant see keyboard "


An invisible keyboard! N30F1SH, youve done it again!

Off to the patent office.

EDIT: Dang, it's closed! Try again tommorrow

EDIT: It's closed on sunday! Blast!

EDIT: What's a patent?

Terrorists, band together and cast your vote for John Kerry!
Neofish
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lol nah, had my light off so dad wouldnt see it and tell me off and m keyboard is not in the light of the monitor and there ARE invisible keyboards btw its 15 to 5 now (AM) so i have the light on, he wont come down here now!, and i need sleep. Night

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Mentor
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 16:46 Edited at: 8th Aug 2004 16:50
they have been playing with nueral networks at universitys all over the world, some have advanced so far that the authors are not sure exactly what they are doing, some of the research is classified and probably a good deal further on than that, a report from the US military said they are hopeing for fully automanous combat robots by 2025, thats a mini tank that will rush into a combat area, ignore the good guys and civilians, shoot the villains and secure the area, they are also working on exoskeletons that allow a soldier to carry large loads (like gattling guns, rocket launchers etc) without getting tired or being slowed down, you should check the Janes sites for up to date info and links, we allready have UAV and smart bomber/missile devices, supply aircraft that can fly around the world on their own and land at designated places etc, remember the cruise missile was capable of avoiding ground/air fire and finding it`s way to the target back in the 70`s, research will not have ended at that, if you had routines in darkbasic to do that, how hard would it be to make some routines to secure airspace?, control ground movement? etc, and a cruise has to make decisions at 500mph, a tank/battlefield robot has plenty of time to decide what to do , they may already have stuff they could use on a battlefield, but if your gonna make a machine to kill people then you want to make sure it don`t make no mistakes, courts martial time if it swings round and attacks your side instead of the other guys

Mentor.

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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 17:58 Edited at: 8th Aug 2004 18:01
Quote: "TCA --- if you've read the book, would you recommend the movie?"

Haven't I've read the books so I cant say. However, I do recommend the film. Very good.

Its got slight comedy elements in it.

One thing I dont get though - it the producers pay US Robotics for the use of their name, or did they have the usual disclaimers at the end of the film - for USR (US Robotics) is awfully close to US Robotics...

Quote: "ah so the guy rote a book called I, robot"

He wrote several - 6 I hear.


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Scraggle
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 18:15 Edited at: 8th Aug 2004 18:20
Quote: "He wrote several - 6 I hear."

A few more than that actually.

I, Robot *
The Rest Robots *
The Complete Robot *
The Caves of Steel
The Naked Sun
The Robots Of Dawn
Robots and Empire
Robot Visions *
Robot Dreams *
The Positronic Man

*Books filled with short stories

The last one (The Positronic Man) was originally a short story called 'The Bicentennial Man' but made into a full length novel which he co-wrote with Robert Silverberg. It was later made into a movie Bicentennial Man starring Robin Williams.

Mentor
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 18:33
ROFL, afew more than THAT actualy

http://www.asimovonline.com/oldsite/asimov_catalogue.html

he was a somewhat prolific writer, I would have prefered that they made some movies based on the Foundation series, realy with the state of computer graphics and special effects it should be possible to make some of these films and make them stick close to the books, Hollywood ought to be churning out some massive films at the moment, but they stick to formulaic dross, Harry Harrisons books would make some exelent light humour, and theres whole rafts of classic literature that could be brought to life, like allways they don`t understand the technology and miss the opportunities.

Mentor.

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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 18:56
The only books I've read of Asimovs are three of the Foundation books - would certainly make a good sci-fi film.

Going to see the film, Mentor ?


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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 19:24


Amist the Blue Skies...
TheAbomb12
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Quote: "the cruise missile was capable of avoiding ground/air fire and finding it`s way to the target back in the 70`s"


no they didn't, You had to manually plot the missle's course.

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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 22:04 Edited at: 8th Aug 2004 22:05
Quote: "ROFL, afew more than THAT actualy"


Yes I know, I was ONLY listing the robot series!

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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 22:52
exoskeletons already exist, but only for building with extremely expensive companies (ie one or two)

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Posted: 9th Aug 2004 04:21 Edited at: 9th Aug 2004 04:48
umm maybe will see the film when it comes out on CD, you get less hassle at a home cinema (twerps/kids and idiots eg).

@abomb12. nope!, they could just be given a target and let go, they where given courses that didn`t annoy other nations or interfere with airline routes etc, but they could just go from a to b automaticaly and take evasive action as required, it still doesn`t invalidate the point that cruise was automanous and thats dated technology now, newer devices will have far better capability.

is Will having trouble with that bottle of limeaid? or is that a hosepipe he`s holding?

Mentor.

@scraggle.....oops sorry!, thought you where under the impression that that was all he wrote, a lot of people think that caves of steel, foundation and the robot series where all he wrote.

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Posted: 9th Aug 2004 04:25
It was a surprisingly good movie.


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Posted: 9th Aug 2004 04:54
Quote: "is Will having trouble with that bottle of limeaid? or is that a hosepipe he`s holding?
"

Are you thinking of the posters ? If so, its probably his gun...


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Neofish
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Posted: 9th Aug 2004 05:24
yes TCA, thats what it is.....i may go see it soon

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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Quote: "is Will having trouble with that bottle of limeaid? or is that a hosepipe he`s holding?"


LOL!

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Scraggle
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Posted: 9th Aug 2004 07:03 Edited at: 9th Aug 2004 07:04
Quote: "@scraggle.....oops sorry! ,a lot of people think that caves of steel, foundation and the robot series where all he wrote."

That's OK ... I forgive you but you do realise, of course, that Caves Of Steel is part of the Robot series ... yes of course you do, silly of me to presume otherwise

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Joined: 15th Jun 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 9th Aug 2004 22:21
I went and saw this film and was struck by the incredible resemblance between the Police lieutenant chap who Will Smith works for and DrakeX.

Philip

PS: I jest! I jest!

What do you mean, bears aren't supposed to wear hats and a tie? P3.2ghz / 1 gig / GeForce FX 5900 128meg / WinXP home

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