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Geek Culture / CGI makie-thimgie

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ShadoZero
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Posted: 21st Aug 2004 17:01
Does anyone know how to make CGI. Is it all just just done in 3Dcanvas or what have you?
flibX0r
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Posted: 21st Aug 2004 19:04
well, not 3d canvas, cos its not that good. Maya or 3ds max or softimage|xsi, programs like that. And they cost A LOT OF MONEY. But most of them have "student" versions that are cheaper but you aren't allowed to use them for commercial uses.


http://www.jellystudios.tk
Current Project: Cube3 Arena (TGC Compo Entry)
Surreal Studio IanG
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Posted: 21st Aug 2004 20:35
3ds max is complicated and will probalbe get more complicated when they release version 7


Used to be Phoenix Insane : PC Spec- AMD Athlon 2.0Ghz, GeForce FX5200 128mb, 512MB of ram, Win XP Home SP1
flibX0r
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Posted: 21st Aug 2004 20:41 Edited at: 21st Aug 2004 20:44
Its not complicated. Its actually quite simple to work in. But there is so much stuff in there that you could get lost quickly. And the release of 7 will actually simplify it becuase they have combined 3ds max and character studio. Me wanty very much


http://www.jellystudios.tk
Current Project: Cube3 Arena (TGC Compo Entry)
ShadoZero
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Posted: 21st Aug 2004 21:38
Right well, thing is I don't have that much money. Plus I'm not in college so I don't think I could get the student version.
flibX0r
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Posted: 21st Aug 2004 22:46
Well, there are cheaper options, i was just mentioning what is used to make the best stuff.


http://www.jellystudios.tk
Current Project: Cube3 Arena (TGC Compo Entry)
Ian T
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 04:00
The CGI effects you see in films and game cutscenes, even quite simple ones, are designed by large teams of professional artists over periods of months with programs that cost tens of thousands of dollars and sometimes in-house development products and rendered on massive chains of very expensive computers made for that task exactly with a time frame of many hours for a single frame even on hundreds of such computers. It takes a ton of time and even more money.

Ilya
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 05:56
What's CGI?

Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 06:03
shrek, toy story, films like that are cgi.. monsters inc also... aaaaand ummmmm shrek 2. films made 100% through 3d animation

Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 06:04
(but what it stand for?)

Benjamin
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 06:08
Common Gateway Interface! Actually thats the other CGI..

QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 06:26
It stands for Computer Generated Image, I'm surprsied that no one here knew that.

Now that you know the definition, this post is far too vague to actually be answered.

Ian T
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 07:07
Quote: "I'm surprsied that no one here knew that.
"


I did .

To the point, CGI is not just 100% CGI films... it's any computer-generated special effect or, really, any computer-generated visual image in a film. It's generally only applied to cutscenes in games as the term was originally intended to refer to film effects only . If you widened it to its literal definition, obviously entire games would be included.

Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 07:10
I knew it meant CGI...

/me reminices (sp?)

I first read about the art of CGI-ing in a magazine way back when. Little did I know it would soon become Mrs. Joe Dimaggio...

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2004 09:46
Technically it is no longer called CGI, it's just CG now.
Mainly because the term is beyond broad.

There is also the fact that alot of 3D Artists got pissed off with Pixel Artists claiming a sodding colouring was CG work.
Technically ya it's a Computer Generated Image, however unlike Rendering an Image (which is what alot of 3d artists believed the term was for) the Pixel Artist was actually doing the artwork.

Bah! Come to Siggraph one year, there is always and argument in a strip club or bar about it early evenings.

In order to create the images you'd need a program which is capable of rendering.

Lightwave, trueSpace, 3D Studio Max, Houdini, Maya, Softimage|XSI, Cinema4D, POV-Ray, SolidRender, Rhino3D, Nendo, etc...

There are alot of modellers and render engines out there.
Just be glad your not doing it for a living, Maya has 32 different Rendering engine... Best are Menal Ray / Messiah / Renderman, but alot of the others offer some good things so you find yourself researching and playing alot of the time.

Problem with CG Rendering are a few things...

a/ It takes talent, but looking at alot of game CG nowadays, not as much as there used to be. Well cept for Shenmui3, but those guys had $150mil to play with... i'd expect those kinda results lol

b/ High-End Creation Machine. Rendering is intensive, but creating high polygon scene is just as hardcore on your system.
I would recommend a Pentium 2.5GHz w/QuadroFX 500 256MB AGP8x w/512MB Ram w/21" CRT DVI-Model, bare minimum!

c/ Beyond what you can afford Render Server or better yet a Farm.
Rendering a 2,000,000 Polygon Scene, single pass, just Shadows and Lighting... on the machine above your looking at the better part of an hour to render.
Movie Quality CG can have anywhere between 200-900million polygons per scene. Usually you take multiple passes because it is quicker rendering bit of stuff than it is rendering an entire scene in a single go. This is a technique you would have to learn like the back of your hand, understanding what to render in what pass... then how to combine it.

Remember a single image at 45min might not seem to bad, but lets say you wanted to make a 5minutes CG Animation.
That 300seconds, which you then take an multiply by 30 (NTSC)... so your looking at rendering out 9,000 Frames, each at 45minutes. So ya you'll be rendering for atleast 2-3months solid hehee

Hense the need for a Server Render or a Render Farm.
Technical skills enough for a Render Farm is what i'd recommend, however most Farms will hold around 16-20 Server Slids, each one of them will probably set you back the price of a mid-range PC.
Not to mention the cases themselves for them are usually close to $3,000.

d/ After experience. You have to understand how to put together the frames you've rendered, not only this but you really have to be thinking about most of this prior to even opening your modeller usually with a short storyboard, concept sketches and design notes on how things will be transitioned.
Shake and/or Adobe Premier become your weapons of choice.

Shake is awesome, but will most likely also require a Mac to edit with. Not sure if there is a Windows version, never used or had the need for one.
Neither of those products are cheap either.

e/ your looking at ALOT of man hours. Usually what happens is, each guy/gal on the team has thier own thing to do. Suchas a single character, or a squad of similar characters, or the world around everyone, or the background, etc...
So usually it allows moer focus on each thing. I've seen some good things from people on thier own, however this is only from people that believe thier good when really you cat coughs up better looking things or they were blessed with skill you wish you had.

put simply, CG is something best left to the professionals.
luckily there are number of professional houses that don't charge an arm and a leg, you could always bother some 3d art student who wants something for thier final thesis project.
Generally try and get your hands on someone who knows what they're doing and has access to the hardware/software required.


MiR
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 05:51
Quote: "Well cept for Shenmui3, but those guys had $150mil to play with... i'd expect those kinda results lol
"

Shenmue 3? You´re not refering to the great shenmue series are you. If so then there is no Shenmue 3. They stopped making it at Shenmue 2 which costed about $50 mil to make. If you´re not refering to Shenmue then what is Shenmui? I look at games sites quite frequently and I´ve never heard of it.


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zircher
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 07:17
Raven's comments aside, you can get into rendering animation rather cheaply as long as you're not trying to make a Final Fantasy or Nemo movie. Main Frame's Reboot used to be a weekly series. Lower end tools like Hash's Animation Master or trueSpace are capable of making movies on a budget. I've even seen some good stuff with DoGA CGA (computer graphics animation.) Of course, POV Ray is free.

The next alternative is Machinima where you use the game engine itself plus scripting to make realtime time movies. People like Rooster Teeth and their Red vs Blue series have turn it into a nice gig.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 07:32
Onimusha 3 ... god knows why i thought Shenmue
Shenmue was more like a damn interactive movie, bleck!

Onimusha 3 though was truely awesome. So much production went into making that as sweet as possible.

As for doing CG on a budget, a good DirectX/OpenGL engine and doing it as Machinima with Shaders really will get far better results than anything the low-end Renderers produce.
You still need help though, I mean sorry but in-game cut-scenes looks much better than poorly produced CG.


MiR
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 07:55
Ah, thought it was a bit odd.
Given that the best feture of the games was the fact that they were like interactive real time cut scenes.
Quote: "but those guys had $150mil to play with"

Blimey that´s alot. I might have a look at that then. I hope it isn´t a ps2 exclusive or something...


A bargain at 900000€ second hand
Libera tu mente y te liberaras.
Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 08:01
raven did u make that woman in ur sig? can u make me a lifesize one? and prefferably outside the compuer, like, standing right behind me givin me a massage?

MiR
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 08:15
Quote: "It takes talent, but looking at alot of game CG nowadays, not as much as there used to be"

Have you played Ninja Gaiden? The cut scenes on that are quite good. Though all Team Ninja´s games seem to have high qualty cut scenes.


A bargain at 900000€ second hand
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Ian T
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 08:28
Ninja Garden? Isn't that a bit of an odd name for a game?

MiR
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 08:51
Oops. I meant Ninja Gaiden.
/me slaps MIR with a bit of large trout


A bargain at 900000€ second hand
Libera tu mente y te liberaras.
Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 09:33
lol ninja garden. fight of teh assassin gnomes

Ian T
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 11:04
Oh you did say Ninja Gaiden, I'd just always been misreading it. Lol

MiR
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 20:34
lol, I never checked. Damb my lazyness. It´s made me write more than I had to!


A bargain at 900000€ second hand
Libera tu mente y te liberaras.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Aug 2004 22:18
Well one of the main character is the legendary Jean Reno
I bet he cost a pretty penny... but still you see the cinematic cut-scenes, you just think 'damn that was $150mil well spent!'

The animations are so life like.
Battle scenes are of epic proportions.
If the CG Scenes are damn good enough, there are some in-game Cut-Scenes which are just jaw dropping... Such as when you first meet Jacques. For a final game it was very very well developed and thought out.

Gaiden was good, has some very nice in-game graphics.
Problem being is I could list like 10games like that, there are always good examples. They make up the exceptions not the rule though.
It's like movies atm, everyone knows there are a few with awesome CG, but most are using it because it's the 'done' thing.

Why use something when you don't need it? is what i'd like to know.


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