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Geek Culture / 400 taken hostage in russian school

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Neofish
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2004 05:54 Edited at: 2nd Sep 2004 05:59
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If u have teletext its page 303 on ITV

Edit: I find things like this so stupid, but sometimes it is the only way to get a message through. (I don't understand the whole situation so I don't know)

This is what it says:

Suicide attackers have seized a packed school in Russia's troubled Caucuses region and threatened to kill 50 children for every gunman "destroyed".

The 17 gunmen and women - wearing suicide-bomb belts - are holding about 400 hostages, including 200 children, in North Ossetia, bordering Chechnya.

Suspicion immediately fell on Chechan sepratists and negotiators have now made contact with the gunmen.

Yes i know im a bastage but who cares?
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Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2004 06:09
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How stupid. Stupid terrorists. I think this is what my science teacher had on this morning when I walked in (I didnt get a chance to see, since the bell rang right as I sat down).


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Neofish
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2004 06:19
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i just saw it as i went to see what was on TV

why cant terrorists make good arguments in senate or another political center where more progress will be made instead of making everyone more bitter and violent

Yes i know im a bastage but who cares?
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David T
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2004 06:24
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Yeah I read about this this morning. Chechens again, it seems.

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Ian T
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2004 06:36
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Because they're terrorists, and if they made arguments in senate and the like they'd simply by faction extremists. Being lunatics isn't good enough for these people, they get kicks out of killing kids.

I hope the situation is resolved.


http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&b=1&t=10920
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Fallout
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2004 06:55
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Generally the russians just wade in and do some shooting, such as the opera house incident where over 100 people died, so don't be surprised if you hear of 50 dead kids tomorrow.

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Toby Quan
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 00:51
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This is indeed a tragedy. This is deeply troubling me.

Thankfully, some hostages were freed just now.
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Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 01:27
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I hope you're not generalizing that all Russians are like that?


http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&b=1&t=10920
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Fallout
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 01:42
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Not russian people, but I am generalising about Russian military tactics.

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Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 01:47
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Ah, okay.

I'll note that brutal, thoughtless military tactics are a trademark the human race collectively. You can find them in the history of just about any civilization, from England to France to the Native Americans to United States history to Spain to... well you get the idea.


http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&b=1&t=10920
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Fallout
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 01:52
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True, but at least these days we have the SAS (in the UK), who would probably successfully resolve that situation if it was here, much like the embassy siege some years back.

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Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 02:29
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What's so special about them and what makes them better than our SWAT teams ? Surely Russia has an organization that's supposed to be able to deal with this sort of situation too?


http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&b=1&t=10920
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 02:44
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yeah but they dont talk as much as other country's negotiators do. The talk a bit, and then they just bumrush in - if 50 hostages die then 50 hostages die. Like was mentioned above in the opera hostage situation a while back.


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Fallout
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 03:49
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The SAS is generally regarded as the most elite unit in the world, by pretty much everybody. They're special because they have the best and hardest training, and entry requirements are about as tough as it gets. They also have a good track record. I'm sure russia has special forces, but training quality varies from country to country.

As for SWAT - I'm sure their training is good (there's been enough games made about them), but they're police. They probably would do a good job in hostage situations like this one, where as the SAS are trained to do a whole load of other things which would be done in the field as a early insertion soldier.

Anyway, sorry to turn the topic into a chat about the SAS. The school situation is far more serious.

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Vusay
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 04:01
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I'm Sorry but I don't think the S.W.A.T are anywhere near as good as the S.A.S. Hint - Bravo Two Zero! - (This will start an argument!)

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Neofish
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 04:24
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the SAS are soldiers while the SWAT are armed policeppl (we have Armed Responce or something in UK) so there is really no comparison + violence isnt a solution when there are 400+ ppl in danger

Yes i know im a bastage but who cares?
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Kentaree
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 04:32
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I dont agree Fallout, I think the Russians have decent enough people aswell, just think of the Spetnaz. However, in this situation there is very little anyone can do, they have (or had) children in front of every window, and they're wearing bomb vests, so if you try and take them out from outside, and you miss, you could blow up the whole place or shoot children. Making their own entry point would also be a problem, as there are mines around the area iirc.

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_Geri_
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 05:28
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i dont understand the chechans. Whi let they go the childrens?

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Manticore Night
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 05:34
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We don't have much, except the FLQ(wait, they're not police). Everyone has a person who really deals with stuff, armed police, and mounty type people. Except most they don't have the cool suit, I want one of those suits, that would be so cool, then I'll ride my horsey to Ottawa, and yell, "VIVE LA QUEBEC, LIBRE!!!!"

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)
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Fallout
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 06:20
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Yizzle. We have SWP (Special Weapons Police) as the equivilent to SWAT (Special Weapons and Tactics). Maybe we don't have tactics?!?

I think during the cold war, the SpetzNatz were the main men for the ruskies, although in the last 10 years, their army has just been generally in a little strive, although I'm sure they have the man power.

I agree that there isn't much that can be done in this situation. They just need people ready to go in as a last resort if the situation esculates. Otherwise, they need to negotiate, clearly and do all they can to save the kids. It's a pretty messed up situation, and you cannot condone terrorism, especially where children are involved. Just remember though, that for people to go to this extent, and be willing to die for a cause, there is a serious underlying reason. They need to deal with the independance crisis, and deal with it well, ASAP.

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_Geri_
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 06:26
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Specnaz is not SpetzNatz!

if i ware a terrorist and i kidnapp childrens, i kill 2-3 of them when a camera appears. This terrorists are only newbies

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Toby Quan
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 06:37
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STOP IT!

Nobody should harm children!

Don't even joke about it!
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Ocean Runner
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 06:44
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Well put, TobyQuan.

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Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 06:55
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Geri is a sick f- and this just reinforces that knowledge. I hope the mods come around to ban him soon.


http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&b=1&t=10920
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_Geri_
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 06:57
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why?! u s**** * * HE IS PROVOKING ME!

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IanM
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 07:00
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He's gone

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Fallout
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 07:03
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How can one table on an SQL database make so many people so happy?

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Naeza
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2004 23:13
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I have an idea. Let's all donate a couple of bucks and buy all terrorists computers and decent internet connections. This way they wouldn't have to kill people to prove a point, they could just slander people in various forums instead.

Release the farbror in you!
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Toby Quan
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Posted: 4th Sep 2004 00:41
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Thank God it's over! It is sad that some children were hurt or killed.
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Emperor Baal
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Posted: 4th Sep 2004 00:58
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TobyQuan, it's not over. Some are still inside the school.

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Toby Quan
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Posted: 4th Sep 2004 06:56
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My heart weeps for the mothers
who lost their child today.
My soul is bitter
at humans who act this way.

Today I have seen sad images
of children, death, and gore.
I can no longer enjoy life
Like I once did before.

I will go home tonight
and hold my 3 children tight.
Life is too precious.
to lose in some dumb fight.
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Manticore Night
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Posted: 4th Sep 2004 07:11
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good point.

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)
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eat much pie
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Posted: 4th Sep 2004 19:48
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well put


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Sam Wright
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Class I Coder
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Posted: 4th Sep 2004 21:08
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A misconception:
Spetznatz are not necessarily what we would call special forces. Due to the russian military system working on quantity not quality, the vast majority of spetznatz are in the plain infantry to 'para' range. Only one division is anything similar to special forces. This is why the russians have 'Alpha', something akin to the americans 'Delta' force.

I had written a longer post but deleted it. I have worked with ppl from the middle east for many years. If you are horrified by what happened in the school, god help you. Compassion is a very western outlook, but not one admired in the east.It is a weakness to be exploited. If you think negotiation is the way forward, god help you. The iraeli's don't negotiate for a reason - it doesn't work. They assault and accept the casualties. When was the last time you heard of an israeli being held captive? I reiterate: I have actual experience with ppl from this region.It would horrify you what they believe, as they've been raised on propaganda since birth.
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David T
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Posted: 4th Sep 2004 23:43
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Quote: "they've been raised on propaganda since birth. "


So have we, in a way.

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Class I Coder
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Posted: 5th Sep 2004 07:15
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Quote: "So have we, in a way."


The simple fact that you question what you've been told is the exact cultural difference that I was on about - I couldn't have shown my point any better.Thank you.

As an example, do you believe that there is a global conspiracy by the jewish state to take over the world? Ask a saudi.They accept this as a well known fact. Yet to us it sounds rediculous.

I edited this post again, and wont respond further. As someone who has lived and worked abroad, it is difficult to impart the sea change that I've felt during the past 15 years. I know ppl who work in saudi, and one in iran. They can handle themselves, yet they're scared. That alone worries me. look at the number of ex-pats now leaving saudi. That number speaks for itself.

I hope to god that I'm wrong, but I believe the atrocities being committed now will be as nothing compared to whats coming.
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Damokles
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Posted: 5th Sep 2004 07:42
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Quote: "I hope to god that I'm wrong, but I believe the atrocities being committed now will be as nothing compared to whats coming."


According to many sociologists, you may be right.
But well, there are reasons to it. And I don't think those reasons will shrink or disappear.

- Mind the gap -
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Ian T
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Posted: 5th Sep 2004 09:22
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The more order there is, the further anarchist extremists will go to destroy it. Evil cannot be stopped or destroyed-- it must be fought.


http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&b=1&t=10920
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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 5th Sep 2004 20:05
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Quote: "why cant terrorists make good arguments in senate or another political center where more progress will be made instead of making everyone more bitter and violent"


i say:

why cant politicians make good arguments in senate or another political center where more progress will be made instead of making everyone more bitter and violent.

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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 5th Sep 2004 21:13 Edited at: 5th Sep 2004 21:18
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** Edit **

N/M offensive post deleted - nice work MODS


The word "Gullible" cannot be found in any English Dictionary.
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David T
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Posted: 5th Sep 2004 21:17
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Quote: "The simple fact that you question what you've been told is the exact cultural difference that I was on about - I couldn't have shown my point any better.Thank you."


I've known that for a long time

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GICO
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Posted: 6th Sep 2004 02:27
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In MSN:

Please put a rose infront of your name to show your sympathy for the hundreds of dead children in russia who have died in a terrorist act, i hope you find it in ur heart 2 do this!! paste this to all of your online contacts!!

GICO

Tried Desert Combat??? No??? Then what are you waiting for??!!!!
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Toby Quan
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Posted: 6th Sep 2004 14:30
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@Class I Coder

I've been thinking about what you said ...

Quote: " If you are horrified by what happened in the school, god help you. Compassion is a very western outlook, but not one admired in the east.It is a weakness to be exploited."


Maybe you're right. We in the west are perhaps compassion to a fault. I never thought about it that way. But, we are very pampered over here. Our country is very rich, and many of us don't know what it is to suffer. So, when somebody has such as small loss, like no lunch money for one day, we feel really bad.

Not thinking anything about people on the other side of the world who are completely starving ... no ...

So, when we see such a big loss, such as when a school gets blown up, the shock is so large to us that it is almost unbelieveable. Because we don't regularly deal with hardship, when suffering happens, it makes it that much harder!
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GICO
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Posted: 7th Sep 2004 01:18
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So true!!

Who did it anyway??? (I know it was terrorists!)

GICO

Tried Desert Combat??? No??? Then what are you waiting for??!!!!
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