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Geek Culture / Software Publisher (thoughts)

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th Sep 2004 13:26
A year ago when suggest before, there was very little response to this.
Doubt to expect a land-slide response this time, but this is something to think about and carefully.

One of the hardest things about game development is when it is all over and you want people to play your game.
Getting coverage, interest and such is a pain in the rear end.

It can be expensive hiring a server to upload your titles to, as well as having the monthly bandwidth to have more than 30people download it a month.

If you include the fact that only once you've release do you get response back from if it is good or not, bugs on wide ranges of system and other information.

... ...

I know that alot of people here, are not out to make money or become well know for thier software development.
Also know that some people are.

What I would like to know is what people think about a Publisher specifically for people around languages like,
Blitz3D, Dark Basic/Professional, PlayBasic, etc...

What do you feel would be benifitial to your development need, coverage, and alike?

Now, i'm not likely to be the one to post back in here again.
So it will more than likely be either Puffy or TheDarthster, depends which one feels like having the limelight heh

If this is wanted, and we (Annex) can get a good idea of what you guys want, then Professional help will be enlisted to hopefully bring a much sought-after service.

Please don't think this is purely a Dark Basic thing, and extend a link to this post to other forums of Hobbiest/Shareware/Amature developers you think will have valid input.

Thank you for your time.
Raven


Toby Quan
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Posted: 26th Sep 2004 14:00
Here are my thoughts:

I pay for my own webserver. I pay $100 a year, so less than $10/month. I have had over 600 people download my games this month.

My point is, bandwidth and webspace are cheap. If a person cannot afford even $10/month, how could they afford a publisher?
Kevin Picone
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Posted: 26th Sep 2004 14:15
Toby:

That's a valid point, but bandwidth is only cheap if you don't use truck loads of it. Most plans offer a fixed bandwidth (say 5, 10 gig) per month at lower entry level rates.

600 downloads month is pretty good. But imagine if you were getting 5000, 10000, 50000 or more downloads a month. That's a lot of bandwidth you'll end up shelling out for.

Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
Play Nice! Play Basic - Next generation 2D Basic (V2.35 Just Out)
Ilya
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Posted: 26th Sep 2004 14:17
I'd use it if it was free and I had something good to sell.

Dave J
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Posted: 26th Sep 2004 14:21 Edited at: 26th Sep 2004 14:21
Quote: "My point is, bandwidth and webspace are cheap. If a person cannot afford even $10/month, how could they afford a publisher? "


I'd imagine the publisher would work on a commission basis, they take 10% of each copy sold, for example. In the industry publishers are much more brutal though and instead give the developer 10% of each copy, however, the publishers handle distribution all over the world (depends actually, sometimes a game might have 2 publishers for such a thing) and play a big part in marketing the game, if your game is published by EA then a lot more people would be willing to purchase it.

Although, the above post is very vague (probably because it's still a concept), at the moment I'm guessing they'd pay for a server and handle online distribution and the e-commerce side of things. Anyway, doesn't GarageGames do something like that though?


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Eric T
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Posted: 26th Sep 2004 14:27
Leaving personal attacks aside for once (yes raven, that would be towards you), I only have but a few questions:

How are you going to find a customer base?

How do you attempt to proove you can be trusted towards a client?

How will you find and sign clients?

And finally: If i we're to sign up would i have to give up my soul?

Eric

AMD 64bit 3200+, Gigabyte GA-K8NS Pro motherboard, 512meg HYPER RAM, ATI Radeon 9600XT 128mb, 120GB Maxtor 7200RPM, nFinity Version 2
Kevin Picone
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Posted: 26th Sep 2004 14:30
It's a brave man that would enter the publishing world, in particular the world of online publishing . Something that i've noticed is how fellow shareware developers tend to only place significant upon online promotion. People seem to take the "Build it and they will come attitude". Sometimes that works.. Upload sites can be good, but competition is fierce. So exposure through most of these for your shiny new release, probably isn't going to happen quickly, possibly never. You'll need a catalyst

Getting coverage in print however can be like putting a firecracker under your site. That doesn't mean that you need to get coverage in the big PC or game mags. Your local news paper is as good a place to start, or if your brave your local radio and Tv stations. If your developing something that is of interest to particular interest group. They probably have associations, fan clubs locally and online etc. Make yourself and your product or service known. Send a press release.

But anyway, that's a bit off the subject..

I do believe an opportunity exists for such a publisher, but' that's my _gut_ feeling talking. Setting it up online isn't that difficult. But building a presents is, and these days it takes a bit of capital to get immediate exposure. Advertising online isn't as cheap as it used to be. Without it and nothing happens quickly. But given the exposure could be created, that would certainly dangle a nice carrot in front of many DB/DBpro developers that's for sure.

Having had more than my fair share of hickups with publishers in the past, I would expect that the publisher is capable to gaining maximum exposure on my behalf. A lot of us (myself included) are not marketing guru's. So that's the publishers job - Market it, Sell it.. Market it and Sell.... repeat... This is the difficult part of the equation, as the publisher needs classy products/ strategies and contacts to attract 'volumes of' interest. Hard to rolling as in the starting stages (concept), people might hold off from signing on.

Another (unrelated) point, is that'd I'd be careful of signing anything exclusivity deals also, or volume based payment structures (you might never reach the target for a payment.. and thus never get paid!..).

Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
Play Nice! Play Basic - Next generation 2D Basic (V2.35 Just Out)
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 26th Sep 2004 16:07
Quote: "Although, the above post is very vague (probably because it's still a concept)"


Your right, the post is vague because it is a concept.
It also is to give people the freedom to say what they actually want, rather than looking at the suggestions of those putting the idea forward.

I've found that when you make a full suggestion people tend to look at that as your full idea. Then they take a stance on how they feel about the suggestion rather than offering thier undivided opinion on what they are after.

This is what I want to see really, what people would *want* from a service suchas this.

Personally speaking, I find STEAM (VAVLe) & Direct2Drive (GameSpy) facinating as they're taking eCommerce to the next evolutionary step.
At the same time, I like to have hard copies of the games I purchase; mainly because if my hard disk goes down, i'll have to deal with the online system at which point it worries me that i'll have to pay for the game again or not have it.

So, from my own standpoint; having a well thought out system would be key as well as giving the option of a hard copy for popular or particularly big titles.

For a busniess that is primarily online, suchas an eCommerce Publisher; yeah coverage is paramount.
It isn't so much the pure saturation of adverts, but more knowing where to place them to get maximum exposure. That is going to take alot of man hours work right there.
Plus people who have prime locations know damn well they have them, so that is going to make it more expensive.

Although the setup & word-of-mouth is a popular setup, particularly for people like GarageGames; i don't think i've really ever had the want to visit thier site. I remember doing so a good few years back when the Tribes engine source was released, but apart from that not really mainstream enough.

They're known, but really what are they known for? I honestly can't name a single title i've heard of which is published by them, or if i have, no idea it was them who publish it.

EA, THQ, EIDOS, UbiSoft & Konami are probably the only publishers that spring to mind right away.
(Microsoft and Nintendo never register as publishers in my head, they always seem like hardware and software developers. Not sure why.)

So this would probably need to be a key goal to shoot for, getting a name. Problem is, to do that will need title which will also get a name for themselves.
Shareware is good for the 5-minutes punters, can make a tidy living sorting out the particulars. Doing that will never allow growth though.

I think we all know what has to happen for that.
Really what we'd be looking at are, 3 maybe 4 teams who would be willing to work directly for well Annex.
In essentially we'd own those teams, they would do what they were told, give generic titles to specifications, but also would be the teams that make the most profit and would be supported financially.

Case of 'who would be willing to sell thier soul for cash'?
Sad truth but some poor shmucks are going to have to in order to gain the finances to actually allow real games to emerge.

As for the questions:
- How are you going to find a customer base?
- Not going to. As the primary market available is likely to be the BASIC languages (ie DBP/B3D/PlayB/PureB/3DGM/etc...) the best option is going to be letting as many of them know about this.
The technology and everything can be setup, but it would take far too much man-power to chase after people.
When they're ready there will be a simple application online for them to fill in and contact will begin from there.

- How do you attempt to proove you can be trusted towards a client?
- Can't prove trust, it must be earnt.

- How will you find and sign clients?
- Aside from the 3-4 teams that we'll effectively own as part of the company assets, there won't be any chasing unless there is a game in development which we believe would be worth the time, effort and man-power to contact.

- If i we're to sign up would i have to give up my soul?
- Depends on which service you'd want doesn't it?
Shareware developers, will get the highest profit margin - as it will be a case of 80-90% profits. Considering Sharware usually goes for $5-10, then that's a case of covering costs really on our part.
There are possibilities of sponsored development, for more time intensive titles.

I was thinking along the lines of something similar to Microsoft's X-Box program actually.

You sign up, and are given 6months with professional tools.
If you can show that you are dedicated to developing the title fully then you will be given the full unrestricted versions of the tools you want plus a cash advance with which to support the staff on.
Once the title is finished it would be a case of giving the team a choice between a settlement payment or a share of the profits (provided a target number of titles are sold). Also obviously because of sponsorship that title would effectively be the legal property of Annex not the developer.

Basically that option would be roughly what you'd expect from a professional level publisher.
Obviously we'd not expect something like 2million copy clauses and shelling out $4million on budgets heh... but still playing to similar rules of the game.

That said, although would want to make cash, in order to provide better services and have more cash to finance better projects, bigger teams, etc... don't want to screw end customers over.

Well i'll leave this for more comments now.


Dave J
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Posted: 26th Sep 2004 16:33
Quote: "Although the setup & word-of-mouth is a popular setup, particularly for people like GarageGames; i don't think i've really ever had the want to visit thier site. I remember doing so a good few years back when the Tribes engine source was released, but apart from that not really mainstream enough.

They're known, but really what are they known for? I honestly can't name a single title i've heard of which is published by them, or if i have, no idea it was them who publish it."


Well that's the ticket, isn't it? I think everyone would agree that every developer wants to know that their game will be seen and that people will remember it. And if you're setting up a new company to do this then there's absolutely no guarantee that something like that would happen and if people commit their game to the publisher then I don't think they should have exclusive rights to the game, obviously sponsorships (sounds a little far-fetched, but I'm not going to say anything yet ) would be a different matter.

Addressing the issue of getting my game seen (if I had one, that is). I don't think it's much of a problem if the publisher becomes established with fairly decent coverage, however, to do that you'd need to have a couple very, very good titles, not above average games either, they'd have to be something spectacular but that's where the problem is, if someone created such a good game then I don't think they'd look at using an unknown company to publish it (I could be wrong though lol) so you wouldn't ever get any attention and getting everything rolling becomes a very difficult issue.

On a similar note, would you plan to accept every game under the sun, reguardless of how good it is? If so, then potential game buyers may have a hard time finding the few great games out of the lot. I know a lot of people won't bother going through a bunch of crappy games to find the rare gems so that could give the publisher quite a bad image, heh. I guess that's the main thing I'd be worried about, would I be proud to have my game published by you?


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Manticore Night
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Posted: 27th Sep 2004 05:43
A publisher like that would be great, just a few questions:

-Would someone under age be able to sell their game via the publisher

-Would it be free?(like DBspot)

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Sep 2004 06:24
yeah, that really is the key issue Exeat.

as i said about the publishing rights, those exclusive would be reserved for companies sponsored by the publisher.
this would work out quite fair, as Shareware games would be pointless making exclusive unless it was something particularly special.

- Would someone under age be able to sell their game via the publisher
- Like everything where a minor earns money you will be required to have your parents signature unless your under 13; then law prevent it full stop (child labour laws)

- Would it be free?(like DBspot)
- I think you mis-understand what the service would be providing for developers.
Will not be a case of, we hand over the webspace and give an eCommerce link and you do the rest; there will be ALOT of background work to be sorted out.

Games submitted will have to be play-tested to make sure that the Release Candidates are ready for the consumer market.
Although you'll have an area to upload your own personal website for the game, this again will be done under strict guidelines; quality sells, as such it would be preferable just to have the Publisher Website do a generic overview of the games plus a handful of screenshots over some poorly coded HTML or badly designed Flash.

The idea is not to let consumers believe they are dealing with developers who don't know what they're doing, just because this might be the case behind the scenes doesn't mean those buying the titles have to know this

There will be no fees or hidden agenda when signing up. I'll advice you carefully read the Developer License Agreement prior to signing on the dotted line so to speak, but quite frankly if you don't then really you shouldn't be doing this stuff.

What will happen is your software will be protected under standard EULA terms. Meaning if it does totally screw something up (which is why RC testing will happen) then no one can get blamed for it.

This will all give developers a sense of security, a quality level to work towards (if a game is rejected you will be given a list of reasons to why) and just generally it will be a case of your developers and that is *ALL* you will have to think about doing.

It will be our job to make sure your games get exposure, always be available for people who want them, handle the eCommerce side of things as well as potencial extra things later on.

-/ /-

Right now the concept is something similar to Steam.
Give developers and interface they can use to create this games which will download as secure files, and this will also mean that an online server activation (which will probably be the safest method of security) will be unnoticable in the background.

Patching should be make simpler and automatic this way, not to mention the fact that Bit Torrent is a very good way of transfering data as the more people on, the better the service becomes.

Also thanks to Valve doing this sort of service first, don't have to be the ones to make all the dumbass mistakes; we can learn from them and provide a good service from the get go.

-/ /-

- On a similar note, would you plan to accept every game under the sun, reguardless of how good it is?
- No there will be limitations to what is accepted.
Critical bugs, Copyright Infringement, Spheres for the characters, etc...

Things which would deem a game unfinished really. Each game submitted will be play tested, discussed and reviewed; based on that decision will move onto the next step or send an email back to the person who submitted it why it was rejected.

Everything will be outlined, but it won't be our problem to sort out what makes it unfit.
Of course not looking for the next Half-Life 2, but we don't want people to be turned off by the fact it looks like a 3year old did the graphics.

It could be a Wolfenstien3D clone for all I care, provided the sprites used are not so bad you'd wish they had used spheres.


Ian T
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Posted: 27th Sep 2004 07:38
The most important thing to remember is to absolutely not trust anybody. I know of two good DarkBASIC developers whose games were essentialy stolen; they were sold, but the developres never got a cent. Cryin' shame...

[center]
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Cian Rice
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Posted: 27th Sep 2004 07:48
It sounds like a good idea, don't have any comments or nothin, but I'd like to see where this goes, as I hope to sell some of my games when they are done.

Got anime?I do.
adr
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Posted: 27th Sep 2004 07:59
If I were to ever finish a game (that's a big "if", people) and I was sure that it would actually be fun for other people to play then I'd be tempted to "test the water". There's no reason splashing out on some domain names, bringing in some serious high-bandwidth hosting, starting up a banner campaign with gaming affiliates (which you could do for about $1000 or so).

Why not just send a copy to mags like PCFormat or PCZone. Give them a URL so that you can track responses (which people came from PCZ and which people came from PCF) and guage how sucessfull that free bit of advertising was. Get a simple comments board - feedback is king

If it gets a lot of downloads, then you're set. Make a sequel, invest some money (pro models/textures/music/sound) and you can bounce of your previous success. The magazines in question will print a follow up article, even if it's 12-18 months later.

*adr deposits 2 cents


I think the taxis are bulletproof
Dave J
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Posted: 27th Sep 2004 10:32 Edited at: 27th Sep 2004 11:21
And I might add that getting featured in a magazine is the kind of stuff that can happen too. Sometime last year, PC Powerplay (Australian gaming magazine) featured an article on an indie game developed by a bunch of Aussies called Street Rod 3 (remake of Street Rod, obviously ), anyway, that generated quite a lot of visitors to the site (including myself). So yeah, you don't have to be a pro to get your game in a magazine, right next to Doom3.

http://www.streetrod3.com (Street Rod 3 Site)
http://www.streetrod3.com/media/pcmag.pdf (Article - PDF - urgh)


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Ilya
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Posted: 27th Sep 2004 11:20 Edited at: 27th Sep 2004 11:20
Isn't it street rod, not stunt rod?

Dave J
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Posted: 27th Sep 2004 11:22
No, it's Street Rod, I accidentally put Stunt Rod in my post a couple times because I couldn't remember the name. I always get mixed between Street Rod, Stunts, and Stunt Driver, all 3 are different games. o_O


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Jeku
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Posted: 27th Sep 2004 16:24
Raven: Shareware authors would get 80-90% of the profits? But what in turn would the publisher do to earn their 10-20%? While I'm not a successful shareware author, WordTrix 2.0 has been downloaded 15,000 or more times, without the help of a publisher. Without being rhetorical, what could Annex do for a shareware author that they couldn't do themselves?

I could see a benefit for a first time author with no money who needs funding for full time development. But once you have a game or two out there, what's the point? I might be missing something, but this does sound interesting.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Oct 2004 03:54
^bump^

sorry, not been able to get ahold of puffy for like the past few days; all i'll say about what could be offered is really, to earn that 10% all you'd really be getting is bandwidth and a site section mention probably in a database and the new for release and updates.

the point of the service would be more to get shareware games all in a single place; which actually is far better than any advertising campaign for your game.

even if you are lucky enough to get into a games magazine and ontop of that be notice by the readers (have to say that i tend to just skim the shareware section even from the cd unless the name sounds interesting), there is no guarentee it will generate interest for a game. It also doesn't mean you'll get known outside of thier local market.

Everyone might have a dislike for FilePlanet, but GameSpy started the site as a handful of files regarding thier online game software. by the sheer number of game downloads they provided which interested people it gained interest for thier own title and other things beside.

they've just started thier own budget range online publishing system; so you can see the benifit a site like that has really.

if just one game on the site gets coverage, people will follow the link, and they're far more likely to look around and see other titles from other developers.
so just the small advertisement for each game would = huge advertisement for Annex, which in turn means your games will also end up being seen by more people than standard advertising will allow.

that's the way i see it anyways, sort of like the ultimate community help.


Jimmy
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Posted: 1st Oct 2004 04:01
Don't bump your spam.


Remember, Jimmy still loves you.
Jeku
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Posted: 1st Oct 2004 12:11
Yeah, it's hard getting a game any notice. I'm currently dealing with an exec from a certain online game site, trying to get a game online, but if you're a nobody like me, it's VERY difficult.

Kevin Picone
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Hmm, I don't see the difference between this proposal and the 1000's of download sites already offering the same fundamental service. It seems to be nothing more than pie in the sky speculation and assumption without any supporting fact.

While there are many issues facing all developers, exposure to 'quality' traffic is a paramount issue. That is to say, your title needs to exposed to a users of the matching/similar interest groups. There is little point in getting 1000's of visitors to your page about a Doom3 clone, if these visitors are only interested in board games. There will be some cross over (shared interest groups) of course, but it's like trying to sell ice to Eskimo's .

In order to create brand awareness, the size something like File planet, or Download.com certainly won't happen without a lot of the publisher self promotion and focused promotion of key titles. Self promotion builds their brand, not yours! In order to kick something like that off today, would require a lot of financial muscle to push it's way into the market place on a any grand scale. Without it, your in no different situation to promoting yourself upon any of thousand's of other sites out there.


Quote: " even if you are lucky enough to get into a games magazine and ontop of that be notice by the readers (have to say that i tend to just skim the shareware section even from the cd unless the name sounds interesting), there is no guarentee it will generate interest for a game. It also doesn't mean you'll get known outside of thier local market.
"


You can't expect to build brand awareness globally, that's really pie in the sky "build it and they will come" mentally. Certainly the more visitors the publisher gains the more traffic will filter down through the site. Titles will soon lost in sea of titles just like on other sites.

To do this properly, you'd need to do some research of the behavior of visitors to such sites. Modeling the service to suit the custom base, much the same way as software should be built to your products target market..


Quote: "
Everyone might have a dislike for FilePlanet, but GameSpy started the site as a handful of files regarding thier online game software. by the sheer number of game downloads they provided which interested people it gained interest for thier own title and other things beside.

they've just started thier own budget range online publishing system; so you can see the benifit a site like that has really.
"



Well, it's a nice theory and a common one, but it's nothing more than theory at this point. To be realistic, You'd be tackling the branded pro services with 'amateur' content, and firmly coming off second best.

As even if this service run banners on big competitors services night and day. Your trying to change peoples very fix behaviors. People tend to browse in a cycles

Case in point, TGC run banners ad's upon this site. So I wonder how affective they are in changing peoples browsing behavior ?. While the odd ad might take a punters fancy, i suspect it would take an awful lot to make a person add a new site to their browsing routine.


Quote: " if just one game on the site gets coverage, people will follow the link, and they're far more likely to look around and see other titles from other developers.
so just the small advertisement for each game would = huge advertisement for Annex, which in turn means your games will also end up being seen by more people than standard advertising will allow.
"


More is exposure is good. That certainly doesn't guarantee a return for the developers or the publisher though. If the publisher promotes the title exclusively, then what happens to the developers own site, their own branding ?.

I suspect that those whom read reviews/editorials would probably visit the developer sites over the publishers site. Since that title is what their interested in. Thus negating the flow through effect.

Kevin Picone
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Play Nice! Play Basic - Next generation 2D Basic (V2.35 Just Out)
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 18:39
Quote: "Hmm, I don't see the difference between this proposal and the 1000's of download sites already offering the same fundamental service. It seems to be nothing more than pie in the sky speculation and assumption without any supporting fact. "


Really, so you care to sit there and carefully explain to me how to get supporting facts for a service which currently does not exist?
You can do all the market research you like, problem is, if something doesn't exist it is all theory.

This all said, this is the exact reason why i didn't start this post with my ideas for this; why?
Exactly because of your post. Rather than actually making suggestions all you've done is sit there and try to rip apart what has been suggested, but that said *only* taking into account the last post and none of the rest of the idea even remotely.

What exactly do you want to see from my post, my plans for gaining coverage?
Do you honestly stand there and believe that website banners work?

Sorry but internet advertising is about as worthwhile as chocolate teapot, always has gained between zero to no interest. Although Rich has noted 'yeah the adverts here gain us quite a bit of revenue', I've talked to my mates over at GameSpy Industries who have shown me the figures for thier advertising.

I'm aware of the more effective advertising routes, and your right this is going to cost a s**t-load of money to achieve coverage.
What more is the site design is going to need to be simple to use, quick to get access too; but that over it is also likely to have a 'Steam'-like program.

Furthermore what is going to have to be covered is how to pander to each group of people. Sure there will be FPS, Puzzles, etc...
But not everyone will like them, and yeah that is what bugs me about FilePlanet is the fact that it is mostly FPS orientated.

So this would go into the web and 'steam' design, trying to make sure that people know what games are new, access to thier micro-sites and show off the different genres.

Almost every worry actually comes down to design, simplicity and publicity. If you have ever been to real publisher sites,

EA.com, THQ.co.uk, SCI.co.uk, UbiSoft.com, Nintendo.com, and see how they have thier sites as opposed to FilePlanet, GamersHell, etc... you'll notice design is something that has been abandoned on the download sites. No idea why.

The first aim is to get people visiting the site, or using the 'Steam' like software.
If the 'Steam' Software has say a Messenger (Aim/MSN/Yahoo) Access within it, giving people a messenger software; can tempt people in by giving them low-impact multi-messenger. This would mean when they sign on, they'll have sitting there the news pages and such.

Making certain area's look tempting to checkout, will sucker a good majority of people.

The key component here isn't 'build it and they will come', hell no... if this is done it is done the Sony way!
A full advertising campaign will be setup and just totally saturate the market in order to make sure everyone and anyone knows about games that are available.

Signing already key players in order to sponge from thier already set client base is going to be a key point.

Not been sitting here thinking 'oh well i'll set this up, charge developers and then see what happens'... hell no! you'll be paying for a service and i would loose money if it doesn't succeed. the market is already saturated by 1001 crappy sites that offer similar things; but they won't promote titles no matter how good they.
They won't be earning money for you, but giving you a place to upload.

Also as i've said, i like hard copies of games and software.
Like, how would you like to be able to purchase Milkshape 2 on CD with a full manual and tutorial CD?

That would totally rock! having a hard copy of that sort of software.
Right now PlayBasic is a $5 Donation software, well what if you had a system which gave you the ability to not only have the software update itself as and when you uploaded a new update but also checked against a server for online protection.
What if there was a developer specifically hired to develop games with PlayBasic, showing off how good it was ... could promote it as the software behind these titles even though they were specifically paid for to be developed.

Getting support for games is very easy by throwing coverage just about everywhere. You sew the seeds of promotion of it in a number of key gaming forums (FilePlanet, HL2.net, SW-Galaxies, etc...) some free taster games and you'll end up having people come for the free games, checking out the software that made them; could easily end up changing that $5 Donation to a $20 pricetag.

Even more so if that hired developer sponges from already popular things and made them into interesting games.
Xiao-Xiao, Creatures, Mario Kart, etc...

There are a number of popular possibilities.
That is just a fraction of the ideas which are currently being thought over.


Wiggett
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 19:06
no offence to anyone here, but i havent really seen a db game in teh scale where it would be worth selling it , i mean we have plenty of thos elittle games like tetris and pong style games, some of them are good, but you wouldnt expect to see them up there with halo 2 etc, though i have seen plenty of game sin developement that look good, but it will be months to years before they are released.it takes a lot of time and effort to make a really decent game that would be worth selling for a significant amount of money, however most of the people here are hobby or learning coders, their software wouldnt really be in the range of it being much worth it to have properly published, we also have a lot of programs coming out from teh more advanced users that are supposed to help others use db to program their games, however even those arent sold for much money, until we get enough decent games coming out that can be sold for a larger amount of money than say $10 is it really worth more than just a normal bandwidth?? please don't everyone hate me now for saying that your games are inadequate cause they arent some of them are very good and i would nto eb able to code them myself, I'm just perspectively looking at it compared to other companies, big and small that are producing games that hit the shelves in places like eb. I have seen a few low par titles that come out from independant game designers (small game design groups) that have come out with a decent quality, so it's not like if we didnt try in dbpro that we couldnt come up with a game that looks as good as most new games out on the market, it's just with our small user base and most of us being hobby coders we don't put in the time and effort into a single project to polish up a nice game. Which if you ask me is what we need, it's just unfortunate that most of the coders here prefer to work solo and produce the lower class of games (again no offence on teh lower class but i mean these games are the kind you would find on those 500+ games of the century discs for like $5). All I'm thinking is that there isnt enough of a base of sellers selling products that would be worth the amounts needed.

Andy Igoe
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 20:01
Excuse me for not reading all that much of the above after the first couple of posts but I do feel I can offer some constructive input here.

Selling to Joe Public is all about marketting and that is something you can do for free.

My team have some fairly impressive download stats and we've done it without spending a penny on marketting with our free games. If we where to now launch a shareware game we have the userbase to self publish.

It's just a matter of establishing yourself is a viable team, knocking out 10 or so half decent freeware games in different genre's that you can use to attract visitors from different web sites of the web, then use those new user groups as a marketting strategy.

When I release a star wars game it gets plugged not only on games sites, but on star wars sites.

It's taken around 18 months to get to where my team is now, I need to look at the stats for this month in a few days, but last I looked early this month we had four games have over 10,000 downloads, we've previous had a game do over 200,000 downloads in a month.

Thinking demo to sales ratio here of 1% that'd be a reasonable number of sales, and we're not even using the shareware listing sites yet which would have a better ratio of demo to sale.

My feeling is that if you have the productivity to self publish then do so, or work with a team that can. Failing that, work with a publisher that can, http://www.idigicon.com for example appear to be able to publish amateur standard games.

Now if Raven or anyone else wants to set themselves up as a company of that sort, then by all meens do so, but be ready to compete against them, understand how to market, and be active in doing so.

Also dont overlook magazine cover disks, they're huge in terms of traffic generated and give you exposure to absolutely the people you want to get through too. If only magazines where more approacheable on the subject...


Which is the biggest tool? The computer, or the muppet who invented it?
Xander
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Location: In college...yeah!
Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 04:05
Holy cow Uberwiggett robx, you only had 5 periods in that entire post!

Anyway...

I would really appreciate this type of service. Right now Firewall is under beta testing (stalled by DBSpot's crash) and I will show the full version to publishers as soon as beta testing is complete (a month or so).]

This is what I really want from my publisher:
-Decent profit percentage returned to me (>30%)
-I want to retain exclusive rights to my game
-No bandwidth limit for people downloading my demo
-A place for feedback on my game (board,reviews...) right on the site
-Reliable servers
-Good traffic to the site

I don't think that is too much to ask...

Xander Moser - Bolt Software - Firewall
Programmer Xtreme
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 04:10
Bolt do you want me to upload Firewall for you today on your www.boltsoftware.programmersunited.com account??

Programmers United-Programming for programmers
Programmer Xtreme
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 04:13
I can do that bolt. It would be on my soon-to-be-up site, www.blackcorporations.com or programmersunited.com..whichever. You would get 70% of the cash made, have the ability to control your stuff....whatever!

Programmers United-Programming for programmers
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 05:05
Xander email me, i think i can help you out.
Wouldn't mind seeing this 'Firewall' game anyways, seemed quite promising 6months ago when i was seeing news on it.


Programmer Xtreme
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 05:09
I already emailed him about it-don't bother. I was planning that sort of thing with him, WAY before you...

Programmers United-Programming for programmers
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 05:21
Quote: "I already emailed him about it-don't bother. I was planning that sort of thing with him, WAY before you..."


o_0 erm, oki. well you can do whatever you feel like mate; i still think Xander could benifit from a quick chat.


Xander
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Location: In college...yeah!
Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 05:57
I should be able to straighten this out:

Programmer Xtreme: To tell you the truth, I thought that you were just giving me a place to host my website and files. I was not looking to publish with you or anything.

Raven: I will email you with details on how to access the full beta version of Firewall.

No hard feelings toward anyone

Xander Moser - Bolt Software - Firewall
Programmer Xtreme
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 05:58
ohh....Oh, well.

Programmers United-Programming for programmers
Xander
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 06:41
I didn't even know that you were offering me publisher services. I want to publish with a company so that I don't have to deal with any credit card stuff or security, or anything like that. Otherwise I would just sell it myself.

Xander Moser - Bolt Software - Firewall
Peter H
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 07:11
lol...

BTW bolt been having fun beta testing

are you going to re-do the GUI??

"We make the worst games in the universe."

Wiggett
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 09:29
so you're saying your hosting is un secure pextreme?

Eric T
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Location: My location is where I am at this time.
Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 09:33
Quote: "Sorry Some guy registered as "Jimmy" and screwed the server your site was on over.
"


Wow, talk about a person who tells a fib. Sad when you make up storys about a person screwing up your server. Even if jimmy did, you'd have to have one sh*tty unsecure server.

AMD 64bit 3200+, Gigabyte GA-K8NS Pro motherboard, 512meg HYPER RAM, ATI Radeon 9600XT 128mb, 120GB Maxtor 7200RPM, nFinity Version 2
the_winch
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 09:37 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2004 10:03
Not to mention the site is stil up.

Removed link to beta

it's cool to hate
Manticore Night
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 09:39
Yup, unreliable, but now that Jimmy's gone he's the only free one. Needs some work tho.

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)
Xander
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Location: In college...yeah!
Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 09:45 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2004 09:46
Dude, get that file off your server! That is the beta version! Both of them are! The only reason I asked you to upload it was so my beta testers could download it quickly, not so you could announce my beta file location on the forums!

I already told you, I don't want to sell it on your site, and I will not change my mind. I have 3 other publishers that are interested in Firewall, and they are actual companies.

Peter: Yes, I plan on redoing the GUI, I just have to get it figured out.

Sorry, everyone else, for messing up this topic with this stuff. Please ignore the previous 15 posts...

Xander Moser - Bolt Software - Firewall
Eric T
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 09:46
I swear this Programmer Xtreme is nothing but bad news.

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MikeS
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 09:53 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2004 09:55
Programmer Xtreme, I've warned you politely at least twice now, and this will be the last time.

---------------
Bolt, I've removed both of Programmer Xtreme's links\posts, I hope that was okay.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
Manticore Night
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 10:07
Quote: "I swear this Programmer Xtreme is nothing but bad news."
Ya, always had a gut feeling it he wasn't too good anyway, that and I tried his service(got it free)

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)
Xander
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 10:53
Thank you MikeS

Now, back to the subject at hand...

So, Raven, would you be running this company, or would it be an affiliate of TGC, or what?

Xander Moser - Bolt Software - Firewall
Wiggett
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Location: Australia
Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 10:55
despite what i said earlier about lack of games, i must commend you on your game bolt, firewall looks half decent and would sell for a decent price too, but i still stand firm on there not being enough half decent games around to start up a publishing deal.

MikeS
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 11:07
Firewall actually happened to be the first game that popped into my mind when this topic came up. Heh, I was almost ready to e-mail you Xander as soon as I saw this topic about publishing. (Btw, you should also check out the Game Design& Theory board. Read the "Money" topic )



-------------------------------

Quote: "but i still stand firm on there not being enough half decent games around to start up a publishing deal."


I understand what you mean. Much of the stuff here can be found for free elsewhere. The only thing most games lack here are polish. Games like Beware the Moon and Snow Island are perfect examples. They're great games, yet they just need a little extra something, more length possibly and some polish to make them worth buying.

Nevertheless, BigBrother did an excellent job on those titles.
(Especially for a solo programmer!)



------------------------------
Quote from Raven:
Quote: "
"


What you said there really caught my attention. Me particularly being more interested in long term application development makes this highly attractive. I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to here more ideas.

Also, not sure if this will help give you any ideas about publishing, yet it caught my eye earlier today.
http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=273774



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
Programmer Xtreme
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Location: Wack House
Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 11:39
BOLT!!! I saved our little conversation...
Quote: "

Me: Do you want me to upload to your account on my site?
You:Hi,

YOU: Sure, if you want to. Tell me when it is ready for
downloading."

Nowhere did you say anything about "Beta testers". I did not even look at the file exept for its name, and did not think one second about it! You say evil stuff, and blame me for doing what you asked, and I told you didn't I? Blame me....pfff.
I rest MY case, now tell me yours.

Programmers United-Programming for programmers
Eric T
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 11:42
Well i Dled the file cause well i was a curious bastard, and the filename is BetaTestersOnly.exe

...



AMD 64bit 3200+, Gigabyte GA-K8NS Pro motherboard, 512meg HYPER RAM, ATI Radeon 9600XT 128mb, 120GB Maxtor 7200RPM, nFinity Version 2
the_winch
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 11:49
Who would have thought it was for beta testers only
Still the setup was password protected which I guess would keep most of the people here from installing it.

it's cool to hate
Wiggett
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Location: Australia
Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 12:17
Quote: "I understand what you mean. Much of the stuff here can be found for free elsewhere. The only thing most games lack here are polish. Games like Beware the Moon and Snow Island are perfect examples. They're great games, yet they just need a little extra something, more length possibly and some polish to make them worth buying.

Nevertheless, BigBrother did an excellent job on those titles.
(Especially for a solo programmer!)

"


great to see someone atleast see's what i mean for once

but yeah some of these games show a huge amount of talent in the programmer/team, and if we just polished them up, they could be great, like that game that won teh alienware competition, that was actually a nice game, of course it lacked substance, and was really only a small game, but it still showed us that dbpro can look pretty good. there are heaps of games out there in teh works that also look pretty decent and i hope that when they are released at a proper scale they go well on the market.

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