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Geek Culture / Patriot act weakened

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Ian T
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 06:00
May come as a bit of a surprise to some but I think this is a very good thing...

http://www.keralanext.com/news/?id=52123

Your thoughts?

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Neophyte
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 07:42
@Mouse

" May come as a bit of a surprise to some but I think this is a very good thing..."

I agree with you. Its nice to have some good news for a change.
Eric T
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 07:45
1 step closer to getting the thing completly abolished.

AMD 64bit 3200+, Gigabyte GA-K8NS Pro motherboard, 512meg HYPER RAM, ATI Radeon 9600XT 128mb, 120GB Maxtor 7200RPM, nFinity Version 2
Ian T
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 07:56
That'd be good...

Of course, even without it, the government has far more powers than it should Constitutionally, due to the ridiculous amount of emergencies the US is in that nobody seems to know about. Clinton alone declared eight !

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Jimmy
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 10:11 Edited at: 2nd Oct 2004 10:13
I support the Patriot Act, simply because I have nothing to hide from the Government.

If you aint doing anything wrong, you won't know you've been violated.

Wait, let me rephrase that: I have no terrorist plots to hide from the Government.


Remember, Jimmy still loves you.
Neophyte
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 10:15
@Jimmy

Quote: "
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
"

-Ben Franklin

http://www.ushistory.org/franklin/quotable/quote04.htm
Jimmy
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 10:20
That's the opinion of a smart man.

But I disagree.


Remember, Jimmy still loves you.
Wiggett
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 11:30
wait did i read this right, they are saying the fbi arent allowed to get information from casino's on guests that are staying there anymore? So in a major investigation where someone is believed to be a terrorist or serial killer or some such, the fbi wont be allowed to get information on them if they are staying at a casino hotel. Anyone else seeing a problem with this or have i just misread?

Ian T
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 11:34
The FBI can already make casinos disclose information without the Patriot Act. The PA makes it so that the casinos can't tell people they've been looked at, ever, and removes all restrictions from the FBI getting any info they want on anybody. Big Brother style, big time.

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DarkSin
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 11:45 Edited at: 2nd Oct 2004 11:47
hahah go ahead and tear down the patriot act, once its gone most of the powers that would help save you are gone, the patriot act allows better prosicution and findings of hackers & other terrorist acts. Once you take it away dont begin yelling at the goverment to protect you, after all you cant expect to take away for example a policemans weapon and then tell him to capture the armed gunmen in the bank.
So go ahead and get rid of it. I myself live in the boonies, have legal firearms and am generaly safe on my computer as far as attempts to harm it go. So it won't hurt me probably near as much as it does most others.

This world wouldn't be nearly as funny without liberals...


Ian T
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 11:57 Edited at: 2nd Oct 2004 11:57
Hyper-defensive conservatives like you give the right a bad name... if you'd done your research, you'd know that I take a conservative stance on 90% of political matters and being a libertarian am almost a polar opposite of liberals... and that despite that the Patriot Act borders dangerously close to fascism.

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Sparda
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 12:14
Patriot Act was the best thing to happen to America since Clinton left office.


indi
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 12:32
I think the usa could have a better president then the current one. George Bush uses religious diatribe too much to put forward ideals.

the one that concerns me the most



freedom of speech, yeah right!.


here are some really "interesting" ones also















I like what some parts of the United states stands for but there is a lot lately that clearly shows it considers itself a world leader, and a "knows best attitude".

Having policies that undermine what the ideals of the constitution stand for concerns me some.

When the basis for war is purely to convert another country to another way of life for commercial gain and material gain, then we have a situation that can only lead to less diversification of people around the world.

Anyone whos got a brain knows the USA policies regarding other countries in the middle east are biased towards the Jewish community.
The USA spends more on there issues then the whole of the USA people with regards to pvoerty and education.

They instigate it and then try to clean it up.

It makes me cringe mate!

I dont know what political side I parallel with in the states when it comes to views.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself
DarkSin
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 15:44 Edited at: 2nd Oct 2004 15:49
Quote: "Hyper-defensive conservatives like you give the right a bad name... if you'd done your research, you'd know that I take a conservative stance on 90% of political matters and being a libertarian am almost a polar opposite of liberals... and that despite that the Patriot Act borders dangerously close to fascism."


Well I'm sorry if I offended you but I dont exactly do research on what others think. No offence it just have really never looked into others views on these forumns (Infact I usualy prefer to keep far way from pollotics here because I like allot of the people here and discussing polotics is almost never a good thing). And yes I might be a "little" more hyper-defensive about my beleifs then usual but I have been handed nothing but liberal propganda 24/7 lately and have been really getting agitated by it. I agree it does make for a strong central goverment but I have always kind of leaned towards it, dispite its evident faults. As much as I enjoy the democratic system and even must agree that it propbably has to be the best system just for the fact it makes everyone check eachother constantly. It does also pose an ocassional weakness, it has been proven through history that a check and balance system does help keep the goverment in check but it has also proven to be a danger to a goverment and its citizens. If nothing can be agreed apon and the danger countinues to grow, the danger won't just stop so the goverment and its people can sort everything out on how to handle it. Although man can not be trusted with power it does have its advantages also, the people may not have as many nor any (depending on just how power hungry the leader is) of the rights we should all have, but decisions are made quickly and without problems. If a nation was about to be attacked it could respond swifter and in some (not all) better then one that had everyone arguing and getting nothing done.
Now im not saying how thats always is, but it is the general gist of things. Once again im sorry if I seemed a bit radical and without reasons but... hehe I've been getting annoyed repeating myself so much.


Neophyte
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 16:02
@DarkSin

"And yes I might be a "little" more hyper-defensive about my beleifs then usual but I have been handed nothing but liberal propganda 24/7 lately and have been really getting agitated by it."

Curiousity is getting the better of me. What liberal propaganda would that be?

"It does also pose an ocassional weakness, it has been proven through history that a check and balance system does help keep the goverment in check but it has also proven to be a danger to a goverment and its citizens."

I don't think so. I'd like to see your "proof" that checks and balances are dangerous to citizens.

But while your looking, I think there is some things about the patriot act you should know:

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12263&c=206

Quote: "
Congress and the Administration acted without any careful or systematic effort to determine whether weaknesses in our surveillance laws had contributed to the attacks, or whether the changes they were making would help prevent further attacks. Indeed, many of the act's provisions have nothing at all to do with terrorism.
"


Quote: "
The result is unchecked government power to rifle through individuals' financial records, medical histories, Internet usage, bookstore purchases, library usage, travel patterns, or any other activity that leaves a record. Making matters worse:

* The government no longer has to show evidence that the subjects of search orders are an "agent of a foreign power," a requirement that previously protected Americans against abuse of this authority.
* The FBI does not even have to show a reasonable suspicion that the records are related to criminal activity, much less the requirement for "probable cause" that is listed in the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. All the government needs to do is make the broad assertion that the request is related to an ongoing terrorism or foreign intelligence investigation.
* Judicial oversight of these new powers is essentially non-existent. The government must only certify to a judge - with no need for evidence or proof - that such a search meets the statute's broad criteria, and the judge does not even have the authority to reject the application.
* Surveillance orders can be based in part on a person's First Amendment activities, such as the books they read, the Web sites they visit, or a letter to the editor they have written.
* A person or organization forced to turn over records is prohibited from disclosing the search to anyone. As a result of this gag order, the subjects of surveillance never even find out that their personal records have been examined by the government. That undercuts an important check and balance on this power: the ability of individuals to challenge illegitimate searches
"


It violates the Constitution in the following ways:

Quote: "
* Violates the Fourth Amendment, which says the government cannot conduct a search without obtaining a warrant and showing probable cause to believe that the person has committed or will commit a crime.
* Violates the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech by prohibiting the recipients of search orders from telling others about those orders, even where there is no real need for secrecy.
* Violates the First Amendment by effectively authorizing the FBI to launch investigations of American citizens in part for exercising their freedom of speech.
* Violates the Fourth Amendmentby failing to provide notice - even after the fact - to persons whose privacy has been compromised. Notice is also a key element of due process, which is guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment.
"


Quote: "
The Patriot Act, however, unconstitutionally amends the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure to allow the government to conduct searches without notifying the subjects, at least until long after the search has been executed. This means that the government can enter a house, apartment or office with a search warrant when the occupants are away, search through their property, take photographs, and in some cases even seize property - and not tell them until later.
"


Quote: "
The eagerness of many in law enforcement to dispense with the requirements of the Fourth Amendment was revealed in August 2002 by the secret court that oversees domestic intelligence spying (the "FISA Court"). Making public one of its opinions for the first time in history, the court revealed that it had rejected an attempt by the Bush Administration to allow criminal prosecutors to use intelligence warrants to evade the Fourth Amendment entirely. The court also noted that agents applying for warrants had regularly filed false and misleading information. That opinion is now on appeal.
"


Quote: "
"Nationwide" pen register warrants
Under the Patriot Act PR/TT orders issued by a judge are no longer valid only in that judge's jurisdiction, but can be made valid anywhere in the United States. This "nationwide service" further marginalizes the role of the judiciary, because a judge cannot meaningfully monitor the extent to which his or her order is being used. In addition, this provision authorizes the equivalent of a blank warrant: the court issues the order, and the law enforcement agent fills in the places to be searched.
"


It is increasingly clear that the patriot act does little to make us safe. As was noted above, the agents trying to spy on us are regularly providing false and misleading information to the courts. Why should we trust these guys with near infinite power to spy on and even take our property if their info is routinely wrong and misleading?

I don't think the answer to terrorism is turning America into a fascist police state. If anything, it will make us even less safe.
DarkSin
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 16:13 Edited at: 2nd Oct 2004 16:20
Just to quickly reply I get it from yahoo (yes yes i could choose NOT to read them but they do have really uptodate news), word of mouth allot (though from friends, its still news about the other point of view), as wierd as it is I live in a conservative area but our newspaper kinda leans towards liberal news, and the fact it seems like no one seems to EVER report the good things we are doing in Iraq (Except from the soldiers I do know of in Iraq who say its going good, and the occasional other news places). Anyways with elections coming up the two sides are constantly somewhere in the news and I guess sometimes the liberal side seems to stick out like a sore thumb to me allot.

Blast you I knew someone would want a refrence and of course I cant remember the country I was thinking of, I read it in world history too somewhere. Anyways I'll spend some time after posting this tring to trace my steps back to it.

Quote: "
Congress and the Administration acted without any careful or systematic effort to determine whether weaknesses in our surveillance laws had contributed to the attacks, or whether the changes they were making would help prevent further attacks. Indeed, many of the act's provisions have nothing at all to do with terrorism.

The result is unchecked government power to rifle through individuals' financial records, medical histories, Internet usage, bookstore purchases, library usage, travel patterns, or any other activity that leaves a record. Making matters worse:

* The government no longer has to show evidence that the subjects of search orders are an "agent of a foreign power," a requirement that previously protected Americans against abuse of this authority.
* The FBI does not even have to show a reasonable suspicion that the records are related to criminal activity, much less the requirement for "probable cause" that is listed in the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. All the government needs to do is make the broad assertion that the request is related to an ongoing terrorism or foreign intelligence investigation.
* Judicial oversight of these new powers is essentially non-existent. The government must only certify to a judge - with no need for evidence or proof - that such a search meets the statute's broad criteria, and the judge does not even have the authority to reject the application.
* Surveillance orders can be based in part on a person's First Amendment activities, such as the books they read, the Web sites they visit, or a letter to the editor they have written.
* A person or organization forced to turn over records is prohibited from disclosing the search to anyone. As a result of this gag order, the subjects of surveillance never even find out that their personal records have been examined by the government. That undercuts an important check and balance on this power: the ability of individuals to challenge illegitimate searches
"


Err since when do terrorist not use or have "financial records, medical histories, Internet usage, bookstore purchases, library usage, travel patterns, or any other activity that leaves a record"


Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 16:35
the patriot act seems just another thing for the government to gain more control over its ppl, if anywheres going to become a 1984 nation, it'll be america first.

Quote: "If you aint doing anything wrong, you won't know you've been violated."

im not sure what that means, but what about guantanamo bay?

The Wendigo
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 16:42
I thought the patriot act was temporary? Anyways I was for the Patriot Act AS LONG AS it was a very temporary thing. As a whole, I'm not too keen on the govt. having too much power. I think the more the government limmits -> the more people have less security. It's kinda like getting rid of guns in America: that will just make it to where the common law abiding citizen doesn't have a gun, but all the baddies do, but then again.. that's another (already talked about) topic.

Current Projects: Verious things right now. Lots of utils for game making. Hopefully something solid soon.

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Jimmy
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 17:17
Mouse, it is not fascism. The government is not CONTROLLING our lives by having unrestricted access to the phone lines, camera footage and mail of suspected criminals. They aren't scanning through every american's phone logs looking for terrorist keywords. It is designed to aid the government in catching terrorists, hackers and clowns quickly and efficiently, without the snags and slow downs of so-called "rights." So, unless you are a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about and even still, if you are suspected of terrorism and they go through your crap and come up empty, you won't know it.

And nobody will care.


Remember, Jimmy still loves you.
David T
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 19:07
Quote: "due to the ridiculous amount of emergencies the US is in that nobody seems to know about. Clinton alone declared eight !"


Isn't there one every year in florida after a hurricane's hit? I seem to remember a state emgency being called, or something like that.

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Neofish
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Posted: 2nd Oct 2004 19:12
havent read all the latest posts but:
Quote: "So in a major investigation where someone is believed to be a terrorist or serial killer or some such, the fbi wont be allowed to get information on them if they are staying at a casino hotel."

Unless I'm completely wrong can't they appeal for a supena (very bad spelling there ) and what kind of Judge/DA is going to stop them?

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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 00:25 Edited at: 3rd Oct 2004 00:26
jimmy: what terrorists? terrorism is just the same as it has been for centuries, its just that now its mainly focussed against the US that everyone suddenly starts noticing it.

Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 02:04
I'm sorry Jimmy, I utterly disagree. The government has no right to that much power. Every one of our founding fathers knew it, and they wrote it in the constitution. There is absolutely no way to ensure that that power will not fall into the wrong hands, even if it's in good ones already; power corrupts, and powerful governments without fail always become evil.

Never mind the whole 'privacy' thing .

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Neophyte
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 03:57
@DarkSin

"and the fact it seems like no one seems to EVER report the good things we are doing in Iraq (Except from the soldiers I do know of in Iraq who say its going good, and the occasional other news places)."

That would be because there is so very little that is going right in Iraq that could possibly even begin to outweight what is going wrong.

With only 5% of the money allocated to reconstruction actually spent and only 30% of that actually going to the Iraqis; very little is going well with regards to building Iraq.

We've lost several cities that are now not under our control.

We've been isolated to a "Green Zone" which even now is starting to see insurgent attacks. This is from the Finanical Times. Hardly what you'd call a liberal newssource:

Quote: "
US military officers in Baghdad have warned they cannot guarantee the security of the perimeter around the Green Zone, the headquarters of the Iraqi government and home to the US and British embassies, according to security company employees.

At a briefing earlier this month, a high-ranking US officer in charge of the zone's perimeter said he had insufficient soldiers to prevent intruders penetrating the compound's defences.

The US major said it was possible weapons or explosives had already been stashed in the zone, and warned people to move in pairs for their own safety. The Green Zone, in Baghdad's centre, is one of the most fortified US installations in Iraq. Until now, militants have not been able to penetrate it.

But insurgency has escalated this week, spreading to the centre of Baghdad. The zone is home to several thousand Iraqis, and on Sunday it came under the heaviest attack since it was established. Up to 60 unexploded rockets were found inside its perimeters after a five-hour barrage.

On Tuesday, a car bomb outside a Baghdad police station killed 47 people, and 12 members of the police and their driver were shot dead in Baquba. The attack was the worst in the city for several months.

The violence in Iraq continued on Wednesday when 10 Iraqis were killed in clashes with US troops using artillery in Ramadi, west of Baghdad. The decapitated bodies of three men, believed to be Arab kidnap victims, were separately found on a highway north of Baghdad.
"


I'd give a direct link to it but it's in their archieve now and you'd have to pay to see it. You can search on the net though and you'll probably find several places that quote some of what I just quoted.

To add to all of this, a recent release of the National Intelligence Estimate gave a very pessimistic outlook on the future of Iraq:

Quote: "
The National Intelligence Estimate, which is a compilation of views from various intelligence agencies, predicted three possible scenarios from a tenuous stability to political fragmentation to the most negative assessment of civil war, the official told Reuters on condition of anonymity.

"There doesn't seem to be much optimism," the official said.
"


http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reuters20040916_155.html

The reason you don't hear much good news in Iraq is because there isn't any. There is no liberal conspiracy involved. Unless of course our own CIA is in on it with the latest National Intelligence Estimate.

"Err since when do terrorist not use or have "financial records, medical histories, Internet usage, bookstore purchases, library usage, travel patterns, or any other activity that leaves a record""

That's not the issue. The issue is that there is no need for them to loosen up the rules surrounding search warrents. The FBI and CIA could get all of this information under the old laws. Giving them a blank check to search anywhere they want without providing any evidence that they need to search there is asking for abuses of power. See my response to Jimmy for an example.

@Jimmy

" They aren't scanning through every american's phone logs looking for terrorist keywords."

Shows how much you know.

Quote: "
How much information would be available to the program?

Virtual dragnet programs like TIA and CAPS II are based on the premise that the best way to protect America against terrorism is to for the government to collect as much information as it can about everyone - and these days, that is a LOT of information. They could incorporate not only government records of all kinds but individuals' medical and financial records, political beliefs, travel history, prescriptions, buying habits, communications (phone calls, e-mails and Web surfing), school records, personal and family associations, and so on.
"


Quote: "
It harbors a tremendous potential for abuse. The motto of the TIA program is that “knowledge is power,” and in fact the keepers of the TIA database would gain a tremendous amount of power over American citizens. Inevitably, some of them will abuse that power. An example of the kind of abuses that can happen were chronicled in a July 2001 investigation by the Detroit Free Press (and December 2001 followup): the newspaper found that police officers with access to a database for Michigan law enforcement had used it to help their friends or themselves stalk women, threaten motorists, track estranged spouses – even to intimidate political opponents.
"


http://www.aclu.org/Privacy/Privacy.cfm?ID=13652&c=130

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutly.

Before you throw away your freedoms perhaps you should consider who it is that you are giving power to and read the above quote. Abuses of this power have already happened. I think its dangerously naive to assume that it won't happen again.

"It is designed to aid the government in catching terrorists, hackers and clowns quickly and efficiently, without the snags and slow downs of so-called "rights.""

So-called "rights"? These are rights afforded to us by the constitution. There is nothing "so-called" about them. Perhaps you should actually read the constitution and eductate yourself on the matter before you go babbling off about "so-called rights".

As for the effectiveness of such measures...

Quote: "
As computer scientists and engineers we have significant doubts that the computer-based TIA Program will achieve its stated goal of "countering terrorism through prevention". Further, we believe that the vast amount of information and misinformation collected by any system resulting from this program is likely to be misused to the detriment of many innocent American citizens.
"


http://www.acm.org/usacm/Letters/tia_final.html
Jimmy
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 05:18
You mean our rights to break the law and not worry about law enforcement finding out? That we can commit fraud and communicate with drug cartels with no chance of being caught, because of these rights that protect our illegal acts from the government?

Those are the so-called rights I'm talking about.

Yes they are gaining more power and control, but over CRIMINALS that don't deserve privacy of any kind.

If you are against this then you obviously have something to hide.


Remember, Jimmy still loves you.
the_winch
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 05:38
Quote: "If you are against this then you obviously have something to hide."


Lots of people have plenty of stuff to hide, doesn't make them criminals.

it's cool to hate
Jimmy
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 05:46
Did I say that?


Remember, Jimmy still loves you.
the_winch
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 05:53
Quote: " Did I say that?"


You are trying to imply the only people that have stuff to hide from the government and the police are criminals or terroists which is not the case.

it's cool to hate
Neophyte
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 06:02
@Jimmy

" You mean our rights to break the law and not worry about law enforcement finding out?"

No.

"That we can commit fraud and communicate with drug cartels with no chance of being caught, because of these rights that protect our illegal acts from the government?"

And no. Again.

Since you weren't paying attention the first time I'll explain this to you again.

The Patriot act violates the following amendments:

The Fourth Amendment which states that the government must obtain a warrant and show probable cause to believe that that person has committed or will commit a crime.

As I explained above, the government now does not have to show probable cause or in some cases even obtain a warrant.

It violates the First Amendment right to free speech as it outlaws people who are the recipients of search warrants from telling others about those orders.

It violates the first amendment by authorizing the FBI to launch investigations of citizens in part for exercising their freedom of speech.

It violates the fourth amendment by failing to provide notice.

Here is a link to the constitution. If you think I misrepresented any of these amendments then post the text and give your reasons. Go on. I dare ya:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html

"Yes they are gaining more power and control, but over CRIMINALS that don't deserve privacy of any kind."

No, Jimmy. These laws allow them to search anyone, anywhere, at anytime for practically whatever reason with almost no accountablity. They are not magically restricted to Criminals. They apply to all U.S. citizens as well as non-citizens.

Were you paying attention when I listed cases of police officers abusing these powers to stalk or harass people?
Jimmy
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 06:13
Winch, no I said and implied that the only people against the Patriot Act had something to hide.

Neo, get OVER yourself. I mean, how arrogant can you BE? You need a cup of cocoa and maybe a full body wax.


Remember, Jimmy still loves you.
Neophyte
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 06:31
@Jimmy

"Neo, get OVER yourself. I mean, how arrogant can you BE?"

I take it that means you just read the amendments and realized you were wrong.
Jimmy
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 07:26
And you've just shown the truth in what I said. You are an egomaniac, your family hates you and soon, very soon, liberal milkgoats will plant their eggs in your spine.


Remember, Jimmy still loves you.
Neophyte
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 08:29
Sorry Jimmy. I control the liberal milkgoats.

AND THEY ARE COMING FOR YOU!
DarkSin
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 08:33
Well both sides have good facts. But I prefer with Jimmy's yes it might interfere with some of our rights, but guess what? You gotta do that if you want to be protected. Protection from others isn't cheap, you have to give up ocasional rights to get it, heck thats why we have a goverment. And they arent exactly searching through your records just for fun, no they are doing it to catch possible terrorits.

Quote: "That's not the issue. The issue is that there is no need for them to loosen up the rules surrounding search warrents. The FBI and CIA could get all of this information under the old laws. Giving them a blank check to search anywhere they want without providing any evidence that they need to search there is asking for abuses of power. See my response to Jimmy for an example."


The problem with search warrents is the usualy have to have evidence to search for evidence... not usualy the easyest thing to do. This basicly just saves the FBI and CIA from having to go through a mile of red tape just so they can search some guyz records. Oh sure this may strike up as a bad thing for allot of people but how else do you expect them to get anything done quickly. With the patriot act they can without warrent search a possible terrorists records before he gets on the plane and leaves the country or what not. Both sides have their points, one keeps our rights protected but leaves us more vulnrable, while the other takes away a few rights and gives us more protection.


Neophyte
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Location: United States
Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 08:49
@DarkSin

"But I prefer with Jimmy's yes it might interfere with some of our rights, but guess what? You gotta do that if you want to be protected."

Unfortuately, the measures being taken are not protecting us. In fact, they make us less safe then we were before. People are already being stalked and harassed because of these laws and the lack of oversight.

"And they arent exactly searching through your records just for fun, no they are doing it to catch possible terrorits."

How do you know that? Were those police officers who were stalking former wives or girlfriends trying to catch possible terrorists?

"The problem with search warrents is the usualy have to have evidence to search for evidence... not usualy the easyest thing to do."

If you think someone is a terrorist, you're going to have evidence that they are a terrorist. Else, what are you basing your conclusions on?

"Oh sure this may strike up as a bad thing for allot of people but how else do you expect them to get anything done quickly. "

By going through the appropriate law enforcment channels. We've been catching terrorists successfully for quite sometime without all of these new invasive laws. I think it is a mistake to assume that these laws are what is necessary to catch terrorist without first some kind of evidence that it's these laws that are stopping us from getting terrorists. And no successful terrorist attacks don't automatically mean that these laws are flawed.

After all, it could be the fact that we don't have enough translators working for us that prevented us from getting the info we needed in time that led to the terrorist attacks happening.
Ian T
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Posted: 3rd Oct 2004 10:37
Government is never benevolant . And to appeal to your traditions, DarkSin, I will again note that the concept of a kind government that will take care of you and protect you completely is a modern and very statist concept, not at all a conservative one. We need to get back to our constitutional roots to save the country from itself...

[center]
"Humans are useless they can only give you questions."

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