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Geek Culture / Question regarding new Windows PC I am going to be building...

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SeaScape
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 15:13 Edited at: 28th Oct 2004 15:22
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I have a question for the processor experts out there...

I am undecided between the AMD Athlon64 3400+, 3500+ or the Pentium 4 - 3.4E for the new Windows XP Pro system I am going to build shortly, as I am tired of using Virtual PC on my Power Mac dual 1.25 GHz tower. Too slow to run DarkBASIC Pro...

Any help would be very much appreciated! I have read many reviews and the AMD Athlon64 seems to win out in game playing. I want a really fast system for programming with DarkBASIC Pro and also for playing games. I already have two 250GB WD SATA drives, and I am just looking at motherboards this evening at newegg.com.

Thanks everyone!
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Eric T
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 15:16
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I'm a AMD64 person. I love the damn thing, runs nice and cool. From what i have seen with the P4 EE's, they have a heat problem. So my personal choice would be one of the AMD64's fitting your budget of course.


http://www.liquidzsnake.dbspot.com/StairwayToHell.txt
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bitJericho
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 15:20
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the real question is... why would you want to buy a 64 bit processor right now? I think it'd be much wiser to wait it out until longhorn comes out. Less you have a specific reason for running xp 64bit (such as a server). It won't make dbp any faster than a 32bit counterpart, in fact it may be faster with a 32bit processor running at the same speed..

As for apps and games, very few take advantage of the 64 bit processor that it's simply not worth the price...

Unless your running a server or something.. I wouldn't touch a 64 bit processor right now...

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SeaScape
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 15:27 Edited at: 28th Oct 2004 15:39
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@ Eric T

I have allowed myself a budget of $350 for the processor and $150 for the motherboard, give or take. Newegg.com has some awesome prices right now, and that is the only place where I will buy the stuff from.

I am going to get the Ultra X-Connect power supply - read a lot of excellent reviews on it.

Motherboard? Not quite sure yet... I have to make a decision by the morning, so I can order this stuff and get it delivered for Friday afternoon.
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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 15:49
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I was an athlon man for ages and I just bought a Intel P4 and I have to say I will not buy another intel. The athlon may run a bit hotter but it runs the same speed all the time. These P4's slow them selves down when they start getting warmer. Normally this would be a good thing as it keeps the processor from over heating. But, when playing processor intensive games or applications you will notice it starts off wicked fast and slows down (ever slightly it may be) the longer you play. I have put 7 fans in here and an awesome processor fan and it still does it. I don't over clock either. My buddy has an Athlon XP 2400 that runs about the same speed as this P4 2.8 GHZ with almost everything else in the system the same. This is just my opinion. As is. No warranty

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SeaScape
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 16:04 Edited at: 28th Oct 2004 16:09
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@ Lost in Thought

I have read that the Prescott chips have a huge heat leakage problem. Hmmm... Maybe my decision is made then.

If I am going to get an AMD Athlon64, which one should I get the 754 or 939 pin processor? There is a 754 pin 3400+ with 1 MB L2 cache or the 939 pin 3500+ with a 512K L2 cache. I wonder which one is faster, and both of them are right in my price range.

AMD Athlon 64 3400+, 1MB L2 Cache, 64-bit Processor - Retail

- Specifications -
Model: AMD Athlon 64 3400+
Core: ClawHammer
Operating Frequency: 2.2GHz
FSB: Integrated into chip
Cache: L1/64K+64K; L2/1MB
Voltage: 1.5V
Process: 0.13Micron
Socket: Socket 754
Multimedia Instruction: MMX, SSE, SSE2, 3DNOW!, 3DNOW!+
Packaging: Retail Box (Heatsink and Fan included)
Model#: ADA3400BOX
Item#: N82E16819103426
Free FedEx Saver Shipping
$259.00


AMD Athlon 64 3500+, 512K, L2 Cache, Windows Compatible 64-bit Processor 939 Pin - Retail

Specification
Model: AMD Athlon 64
Operating Frequency: 2.2GHz
FSB: Integrated into Chip
Cache: L2/512K
Voltage: 1.5V
Socket: Socket 939
Packaging: Retail
Model#: ADA3500AWBOX
Item#: N82E16819103463
Free FedEx Saver Shipping
$289.00
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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 16:25
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Well the main difference between the 2 is the memory controllers. The 939 models have a 128-bit, dual-channel memory-controller where the 754 models have 64-bit, single-channel memory-controller. The other advantage to the 939 chipset is the option to upgrade to the Athlon 64 FX series processor if you want later (which will upgrade it to 1MB of L2-cache). If you get a mother board that will support both. I'll bet the run close to the same depending on the application being ran.

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SeaScape
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 16:33
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@ Lost in Thought

Thanks for the help! Much appreciated! I will go with the 939 chipset then, since I will be able to add faster 939 pin processors later without replacing my motherboard. In reality though, this is probably going to be good enough for a few years. I wish I could afford the 3800+, but it is too expensive for me right now. hehehe

Off I go to find a motherboard, now that I have decided on a processor.
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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 16:51
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I looked into buying a athlon 64 processor when I bought this P4 but wussed out. Wish I would have now. I was looking into a Gigabyte Motherboard with the VIA K8T800 Pro chipset (GA-K8VNXP939) recommended by AMD. I have had great luck with Gigabyte motherboards. MSI board are great to though. There are probably some newer boards out ther by now. VIA's K8T890 chipset is supposed to be out by now I think, if you have the money I have no idea on pricing for those it has been a while since I looked into it.

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Eric T
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 17:02
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Yeah i like the gigabyte boards. I have a GA-K8NS, can support up to 3 gigs of memory (3 fancy memory slots, first mobo i have ever had with 3).


http://www.liquidzsnake.dbspot.com/StairwayToHell.txt
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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 18:59
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sigh- why do pentium still exist? we should have boycotted them long ago- its just theres still noobs out there that fall for pentiums slightly faster MhZ, and i try my best to convince them but they never listen, even though everyone in the room is yelling "AMD" they still go pentium, i think next time, i'll just say "AMD" once and let them suffer if they dont listen, serve the cockheads right

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SeaScape
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 20:29 Edited at: 28th Oct 2004 20:36
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It's me again... I was reading that the 754 pin 3400+ with 1MB L2 cache is as fast or faster than the 512KB 939 pin 3500+. This makes me wonder... My personal opinion is that the 754 pin line will be the mainstream line for AMD, while the 939 pin line will be for advanced users.

The price difference is only $30 or so between the two processors. I have been reading about some 939 boards having problems running initially. Should I go with the established 754 board from AOpen (see below)? Nice board! Has SATA RAID 5 too! Woohoo!

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-137-052&depa=1

AOpen "N250A-FR" NVIDIA nForce3 250 Chipset Motherboard For AMD Socket 754 CPU - $109.00 at newegg.com!
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SeaScape
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 20:51 Edited at: 28th Oct 2004 21:07
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@ O_x

I know the 3400+ with 1MB L2 cache is made with a Clawhammer core, but which one is the 3500+ made with? If I am not wrong it is made with the Newcastle core, so I think it would not be a problem buying this processor. Also, I don't plan on overclocking the system - just not into that.
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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 08:23
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Like I said I think they will actually run about the same speed depending on what applications you run. If you bench marked them some progs will run faster on one and some will run faster on the other. They only thing that I would think about is ... Do I want to upgrade later? If you are planning to upgrade sometime within the next year to year and a half I would go with the 939. If you don't plan to upgrade in that time period then I would go with the 754. 754 has been out longer and probably will be more stable but they are sure to get the kinks ironed out of the 939 soon and release updates. It just a matter of possible future expansion to me. Again this is just my opinion. Feel free to have your own

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SeaScape
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 19:01 Edited at: 29th Oct 2004 19:04
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I am trying to decide between these two processors...

Socket 754:
AMD Athlon 64 3400+, 2.4ghz CG, 512KB L2 Cache - Newcastle core
AMD Athlon 64 3400+, 2.2ghz C0, 1MB L2 Cache - Clawhammer core

Which is better and why is the speed on the Clawhammer chip slower?

@ Lost in Thought
If I do upgrade in two years when I am a Mathematics (5-12) teacher, I will get something really nice, like the top Athlon64 FX processor. This system can be given to my wife at that point - she won't argue. hehehe

Another reason pushing me toward the S754 is this motherboard from AOpen.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-137-052&depa=1
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Eric T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 19:46
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LMAO, that AO Mobo is like the Sick twin of the Gigabyte Mobo I have.

As for the chip, never used a Clawhammer, but that 1mb L2 does look nice. I have a newcastle, although the 2000mhz Version, overclocked to 2200mhz. Runs nice for me.

Might wanna check out some of the benchmark sites, see what they say about the "Clawhammer".


http://www.liquidzsnake.dbspot.com/StairwayToHell.txt
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SeaScape
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 21:23 Edited at: 29th Oct 2004 21:30
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Me again...

From what I have been reading:

AMD Athlon 64 3400+, 2.4ghz CG, 512KB L2 Cache - Newcastle core * NEWER CORE *
Therefore, more efficient in handling memory than Clawhammer core.

AMD Athlon 64 3400+, 2.2ghz C0, 1MB L2 Cache - Clawhammer core * OLDER CORE *

I am going to decide between these two...

Thanks for the help everyone! This will be my first actual Windows XP Pro system. Note: I've used Windows computers for years; I just never owned one. hehehe Can't wait to start some DarkBASIC Pro programming!
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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 18:51
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That looks like great specs on the motherboard though I have never used AOpen before. I usually stick with VIA chipsets for athlons too. I have never tried NVIDIA nForce chipset before. If you get it let me know how it runs. We'll let you be the test subject

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Eric T
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 18:53 Edited at: 30th Oct 2004 18:53
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nForce3 for the 3 months i have had it is a nice Chipset. Haven;t actually had any problems with it, with exception of when i go overclock crazy . Suprisingly it freaks out more then the processer.


http://www.liquidzsnake.dbspot.com/StairwayToHell.txt
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SeaScape
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 21:53 Edited at: 1st Nov 2004 15:09
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Hello everyone.

I have decided to get this motherboard instead...

DFI "LANPARTY UT nF3 250Gb" NVIDIA nForce3 250GB Chipset Motherboard For AMD Socket 754 CPU

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=13-136-147&DEPA=0

Nice price too! This board was designed by Oskar Wu - I do know who he is. hehehe He worked at Abit for a long time, and is now with DFI.

This is the case I am going to get...

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=11-196-004&depa=1

Decided on the processor...

AMD Athlon 64 3400+, 2.4ghz CG, 512KB L2 Cache - Newcastle core * NEWER CORE *

I have been reading that this processor, even though it only has 512KB L2 cache, is still faster than the one with 1MB L2 cache.

Going to buy these games too...

Call of Duty
Call of Duty: United Offensive Expansion Pack
Totally Unreal
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Dodo
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 04:02
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nice case

Part of solving the problem is actually noticing that the problem is there in the first place

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SeaScape
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 07:28 Edited at: 1st Nov 2004 17:21
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@ Dodo

I think it looks quite nice, but that fan grill on the window has got to go. I am going to get this one instead, since I am a Canadian living in the US permanently.

http://www.adpmods.com/xcart/catalog/product_262_Rev2_80mm_MapleLeaf_Fan_Grill_Red.html

The 12 cm fan in front will remain UV blue for the massive air intake. It might look cool inside with this UV blue power supply from Ultra.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=876415&CatId=1079

I might get this heatsink for the cpu
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=35-128-002&depa=0

or this one
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=35-106-042&depa=0

or this one with a Tornado 9cm fan to keep the processor really cool when playing a game for hours
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=35-106-045&DEPA=0

Should look very nice after it's put together, and I will post some pictures here once I am ready to put it together.
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hyrichter
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 08:48
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Nice case, it's almost like mine. Did you notice it doesn't come with a power supply?



Do not click the red button
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SeaScape
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 09:06
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@ hyrichter

See the message above yours...
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Emperor Baal
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 09:16 Edited at: 31st Oct 2004 09:23
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Personally, I would wait for a worthy pci-express 16x motherboard with a nforce chipset. Although it could take a while, a AMD 64 3600+ with a pci-e X700 radeon would rock

You could buy a new mobo and a AMD 64, but you'll soon be stuck with an old chipset that doesnt support pci-express videocards. AGP is fast enough for most now, but it won't be in la future


[edit]
Just a had look, MSI K8N Neo4, looks like a fine board to me

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SeaScape
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 12:55 Edited at: 1st Nov 2004 16:36
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@ Emperor Baal

The motherboard I am getting has been getting rave reviews from many people, and it is designed by the famous Oskar Wu. Can't go wrong there!

Initially, I was thinking of going with the 939 chipset, but I have read on a few websites that there are still some problems with the motherboards based around this chipset. Better to go with the 754 right now, as this should suffice for some time. In 2-3 years, I will be able to afford to get the latest and greatest Athlon 64 or Athlon 64 FX. The Newcastle 3400+ has beat the Clawhammer version and also the 3500+, in a few tests I have seen online. I did a lot of reading here and elsewhere before making a good decision.
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SeaScape
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Posted: 1st Nov 2004 17:13 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2004 12:06
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Well... I have learned one thing in all of my years using Windows computers. Sometimes it just doesn't pay to buy the "latest and greatest" components. I think I have become somewhat wiser in my purchasing decisions. The only exception to that rule, would be in the video card area (see below).

I have been reading there are still bugs in some motherboard implementations with the 939 processor, so I think I made a wise decision to go with the 754 processor. The Athlon 64 3400+ (Newcastle) that I bought is just as quick as a 3500+. That is good! hehehe

This is going to be a fast system, not the best, but that will come later when I can afford to build myself a kick-@ss gaming system with the Athlon 64 FX. Then I will get the 939 processor motherboard that DFI will bring out when it is ready for prime time.

I guess this makes me a new Athlon 64 fan (see new avatar).
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SeaScape
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 12:09 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2004 17:02
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Regarding a video card for this new computer... I just purchased the BFG GeForce 6800 GT OC. This thing is absolutely awesome, is cheaper than the 6800 Ultra, and performs just a little slower than the 6800 Ultra. I got it for $439 (the newer version) with the full version of Doom 3 for FREE - WOOHOO!

Newegg doesn't have the newer version in so I bought it from Directron.

http://store.yahoo.com/directron/bfg6800gt.html

Here is what the newer version looks like on the company's page:
http://www.bfgtech.com/6800GTOC.html

I should be able to put this together Friday evening after my afternoon exam.

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Emperor Baal
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 00:38
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You shouldn't have

Right now it's the worst time to buy a new videocard. AgP will go away, prices are going down and up ATM, ati's having trouble supplying enough cards, nVidia's stuck with new designs so they came up with SLI, etc...

Personally, I would deposit la cash (interest ) and wait a few months.

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SeaScape
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 17:15 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2004 17:26
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@ Emperor Baal

How can you build a computer without buying a video card? That's like baking a cake without any flour. hehehe

AGP is not going anywhere fast - don't forget that some people don't care about having the latest and greatest peripherals, like PCI video cards, for their computers. In real world tests, PCI video cards don't perform much better than their AGP counterparts. The fact that a card is AGP is not going to stop me from buying a kick-@ss nVidia-based card. I was considering an ATI card, but they are slower in many games and produce more heat than the one I am getting. Also, I don't like their drivers at all. Too many problems with them from what I have been seeing and from my own experience, as compared to nVidia's drivers.

Believe me, I did a lot of reading before making any purchase decisions. When buying the parts to build this computer, I based all of my decisions on many online reviews. The only exception I made regarding cost was with the video card, because I need a great performing card for my graphical needs. I need a really good Windows XP Pro system for DarkBASIC Pro programming, games, university studies, etc., and waiting a few more months just wasn't an option since I need it now not next year.

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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 02:05
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Quote: "How can you build a computer without buying a video card?"


onboard graffix

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