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Geek Culture / Refresh Rate

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Ilya
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 09:12 Edited at: 30th Oct 2004 09:28
Why can't I set the refresh rate for my monitor to something greater than 60hz?
Does my graphics card matter(GeForce FX 5200)
My monitor: Dell LCD Plug And Play.

(And is there a gun(preferably used as a mouse) that works with LCD monitors?)

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 09:40
Have you hidden invalid refresh rates ?
Have you installed the monitor drivers ?
Am I great or what ?

He who knows the cat becomes his slave; he who knows the dog becomes his King.
Ilya
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 09:45
Quote: "Have you hidden invalid refresh rates ?"

Yes then no. They both still only showed 60hz.

Quote: "Have you installed the monitor drivers ?"

No. (Goes to install the monitor drivers)

Quote: "Am I great or what ?"

Maybe...

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
Ian T
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 09:47
That's probably what your monitor caps at. There's no reason to have it set higher anyways that I know of.


Here we go again!
TRANSGRESS AND I SHALT BAN YE! (Just kidding...)
Ilya
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 09:51 Edited at: 30th Oct 2004 09:51
People say 120 looks better and smoother(and puts less strain on your eyes)

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
Ilya
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 09:58 Edited at: 30th Oct 2004 09:59
Well, I just found a driver CD that I never used...

...and It's not a driver CD.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
bitJericho
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 09:58
80 is the highest you will notice. That's what I set my monitors at.. However, an LCD monitor does not matter at all what you set your refresh rate higher.. LCDs and CRTs function differently.. with a CRT it's much easier on the eyes to set your refresh rate up...

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Ilya
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 10:10
Now that it doesn't matter,
Quote: "is there a gun(preferably used as a mouse) that works with LCD monitors?"

(A toy gun like the USB Lightgun)

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
Dave J
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 10:10
Quote: "That's probably what your monitor caps at. There's no reason to have it set higher anyways that I know of."


70hz should be the absolute minimum, you can notice the subtle flickering on anything lower and it's known to increase eye strain.

What resolution are you running on? The higher the resolution, the lower your maximum refresh rate, so if it really bothers you, you should probably lower your resolution.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Ilya
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 10:12 Edited at: 30th Oct 2004 10:13
I'm going to lower the resolution by 1 step then.
(The manual said I'd get 75 or 85.)

EDIT:
Arg. Windows only gives me 3 options for resolution.

Woah!!! Everything is huge.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
Ilya
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 10:19
Back to max resolution with 60hz refresh rate.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
FoxBlitzz
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 10:47
60 hz has never strained my eyes. It's also as fast as the human eye can see, so setting the refresh rate at a number that is not divisible by 60 makes things run less smooth as it refreshes at a different interval than the human eye. To me, it just doesn't make sense to set the refresh rate any higher than 60 unless a game tries to cap at a framerate higher than 60 (which is real awkward and unnecessary).

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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 10:51
Quote: "70hz should be the absolute minimum, you can notice the subtle flickering on anything lower and it's known to increase eye strain."


Aw, great. Now my monitor officialy sucks

I've never noticed the flickering though.


Here we go again!
TRANSGRESS AND I SHALT BAN YE! (Just kidding...)
FoxBlitzz
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 11:07 Edited at: 30th Oct 2004 11:11
My current video card can go up to 240 hz on the lower half of the resolutions it supports (With the maximum resolution it supports being 2048 x 1536). However, my monitor only supports up to 85 hz on most resolutions and it has a maximum resolution of 1280 x 1024 pixels.

Edit: Ilya, have you tried changing resolutions through the nVidia settings dialog? If you still can't set it above 60 hz, then uncheck the box that makes it hide the unsupported resolutions and refresh rates of your card (This could damage your hardware, be careful).

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Ilya
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 11:40
I've secessfully set it to 75hz, but at the expence of resolution, so I changed it back.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
Dave J
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 15:37 Edited at: 30th Oct 2004 15:41
Jerico2day is correct, LCD's function very differently to regular CRT's, LCD's light up each individual pixel on the screen and using a higher refresh rate will actually make the picture blurier. So for an LCD, 60hz is usually the optimal refresh rate, I believe most LCD's tell you which one you should use on the box.


Quote: "Aw, great. Now my monitor officialy sucks

I've never noticed the flickering though."


That's probably because you haven't got anything to compare it to, temporarily put your resolution down to 640*480 with 70hz, then change it to 60hz, trust me, you'll notice a difference.


Quote: "60 hz has never strained my eyes. It's also as fast as the human eye can see, so setting the refresh rate at a number that is not divisible by 60 makes things run less smooth as it refreshes at a different interval than the human eye. To me, it just doesn't make sense to set the refresh rate any higher than 60 unless a game tries to cap at a framerate higher than 60 (which is real awkward and unnecessary)."


First and foremost, the human eye does not have a 'refresh rate' as such, it does not work the same way as a video camera and so it does not have a 'shutter speed' or equivalent, instead, the eye uses a number of motion, detail and pattern detectors to create the images (and the sensation of 'motion') we see in everyday life. There is, however, a refresh rate where the flicker becomes unnoticeable, and this is different for each person and depends on the brightness of lighting in the surrounding environment. Contrary to what you said however, the maximum refresh rate for the Human Eye is approximately 16hz, quite an amount below what is used in entertainment, movies run at 24hz and the monitor rate of 60hz (actually 30hz because CRT's use an interlace comb effect to render only half the screen) are still an amount higher then the eye.

The reason you can still notice the flicker though is because monitor displays are not in sync with the eye, that means your eye won't 'refresh' at the exact same split second as the monitor, it is for this reason that you'll notice a flicker when you compare the 70hz refresh rate with the 60hz rate. A lot of research has gone into reducing eye strain (as IT is an increasing industry and OHS is becoming a very large issue) and while 70hz is the absolute minimum, most people should aim for a refresh rate of 75hz. This, of course, is only relevant to people who use computers for extended periods of time and you should still take regular breaks to give your eyes a rest. You don't want to get square eyes, do you?


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FoxBlitzz
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 15:56
Quote: "Contrary to what you said however, the maximum refresh rate for the Human Eye is approximately 16hz"


But that doesn't make any sense. How can you possibly tell the difference between 60 hz and lower if the human eye can only see up to 16 hz (Although someone else on another site said it was 30)?

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Eric T
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 15:57
Ugh, the refresh rate for the human eye is 25 to 60 Hz. It depends on the person.

Pricey
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 18:13
If you turn a celing fan on in a dark room and set a strobe light to the same frequency as the fan (so it flashes once every revolution of the fan) it looks like the fan isn't moving . Isn't that cool

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 18:25
My LCD monitor goes up to 75Hz, which is what its set too - anything lower and I can see the raster beams...

He who knows the cat becomes his slave; he who knows the dog becomes his King.
NathanF
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 18:31
Quote: "But that doesn't make any sense. How can you possibly tell the difference between 60 hz and lower if the human eye can only see up to 16 hz (Although someone else on another site said it was 30)?"


Quote: "
The reason you can still notice the flicker though is because monitor displays are not in sync with the eye, that means your eye won't 'refresh' at the exact same split second as the monitor, it is for this reason that you'll notice a flicker when you compare the 70hz refresh rate with the 60hz rate. A lot of research has gone into reducing eye strain (as IT is an increasing industry and OHS is becoming a very large issue) and while 70hz is the absolute minimum, most people should aim for a refresh rate of 75hz."


-Formerly DarkSephiroth-
Mentor
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 20:05 Edited at: 30th Oct 2004 20:14
Quote: "My LCD monitor goes up to 75Hz, which is what its set too - anything lower and I can see the raster beams...
"


ROFL, thats because you are insane and deluded .

CRT monitors work differently to TFT, in a crt monitor a scan beam zips down the screen a line at a time and draws the picture you see, by the time it reaches the bottom the phosphors at the top of the screen have started to fade, by the time the scan beam has been pulled back to the top they have faded and that section of the screen is as black as it is when you have it turned off, then the beam redraws the image on the freshly blank screen, it does this 50 times a second for tv, 60 to 120 times a second for a monitor.

monitors have a higher refresh rate (the phosphors are cheaper and don`t hold an image for as long as your TV phosphors can), so you need to refresh the screen more often, otherwise you notice the fade to black of the longest drawn section of the screen (flicker).

turning the scan speed up makes the pc redraw the fadeing section of the screen sooner, the limit is set by the makers, you can`t refresh faster than the old image fades, otherwise you would end up with a screen that has the previous frame drawn under the new one, and it would get very bright as the phosphors got more and more charge built up.

some examples of a phosphor that persists for a long time are the old style revolving radar display, those blips that showed a target did not persist because of fancy electronics drawing a slowy fading blip, but because they chose the phosphor to glow for long enough that the dish could revolve around once before they had totaly faded, another is the old green screen monitors from my early PC days, much sought after since they didn`t give eyestrain due to the green phosphor persisting so well (although they later found it gave your vision a red bias after looking at one all day)

TFT monitors on the other hand don`t fade, the dot is held at the specified colour and doesn`t alter until it is told too, then it will switch to the new colour, so you don`t get any flicker apart from the phosphorescent backlight that lights the screen which operates on the same basic principle as a lighting tube or low energy bulb, but it`s flicker is outside your control (set at about 100hz).

thats why when you photograph a monitor with a digital camera a CRT has a blank band thats unreadable (unless the refresh rate is faster than the cameras CCD), while on a TFT you just notice a shadow where the monitors backlight and the scan of the CCD went into and out of sync.

if you take a screenshot of a monitor with a broadcast(TV company) camera or a ordinary film camera you can tell which monitor is which, a TFT shows up clearly in the photo, a CRT has one or more bands in the image, think back to a news broadcast where people in the background are using CRT, you can see the screen flicker from strobe effect, if they have a tft screen then you just see a faint shimmer from the backlight.

the difference for TFT is in the speed it can alter the image, TFT has several million little LCD windows placed in front of colour filters, these windows can be on, off or at any in-between value, the speed that a pixel can change colour depends on how fast the LCD can change, if you have noticed when working fast on a LCD calculator, there is a percecptable lag.

TFT screens have lcd components chosen for speed, but they are not as fast as a fast CRT monitor, so if you have a very fast movement on a good CRT it looks "clean", no smearing, the same fast movement on a TFT will (depending on the quality) leave a "smear" or "rip" where the lcd "windows" are changeing back to their background colour not quite fast enough, heres a bit of a snippet that shows this, alter the speed with the up/down cursor keys.



note that on a tft display the effect will not be at all what you are expecting, but thats because in a detailed scene the brain is too busy processing movemment to notice minor detail, movies on TFT etc all look like this when in motion, but you don`t notice it, it only becomes noticeable in controled specific examples like this.

the upshot of all this rambling is to say that a TFT can have a far slower refresh rate than a CRT and still look flicker free, there are a lot of stupid claims about refresh rate going about, basicaly you don`t notice refresh above 20fps when looking head on, but peripheral vison will show a noticble flicker (look out the corner of your eye at the the screen) since the peripheral vision receptors are mosly black and white and respond faster to light change.

the TV standard 50 fps was chosen after much research as the best refresh rate to view without tireing the eyes or causeing headaches, computer monitors have higher refresh requirements for reasons of cost and because the PC can supply faster refresh rates, it`s not so that you can play games better, most manufacturers make their money selling monitors to corperations and governments, you may have one or two monitors at home (replaced rarely) the local council offices use thousands and replace em every two years or so.

controled tests show that people claiming to see anything different above 40 fps are in error or just seeing what they expect to see, framerate flicker is detected by the periphery of your vision where the black and white receptors are (they evolved to allow you to detect movement like approaching predators quickly in low light) as long as you are looking directly at the screen you won`t notice any flicker since the colour rods and cones have a slower fire rate and cannot detect change so fast, hence the term Persistance of vision, thats what make you see sparklers (fireworks) as bright trails of light in the dark, the high level of light triggers the slower colour receptors.

Mentor.

ps: before anybody starts there are some generalisations and simplifications made in this post, someones bound to have a go at it since the facts are not in line with what is "known" by "common knowledge".

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Ilya
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 09:43
Quote: "
Reforce helps companies grow revenue, profit & relative valuation, often by entering new markets.

Reforce combines strategic expertise with operational coaching and our own methodology in order to achieve a faster execution based on strong business models.
"

Really...

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
FoxBlitzz
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 09:46
Quote: "I personally use 100hz as anything less hurts my eyes, especially after a long 12 hour session."


Wow, I'm sticking with 60 hz then... because if I go up any higher, there will be no way down.

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hyrichter
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 10:00
Quote: "you should be able to notice the subtle flickering of a 60hz refresh rate"


Subtle? 60hz is absolutely awful! I have to have at least 85hz on a CRT monitor.

FoxBlitzz
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 10:41
Quote: "Pfffft, n00bz can't even search google properly so I've done it for you"


Dude, nobody said that they had trouble looking for it in this thread. Duh. Don't try to look elite.

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FoxBlitzz
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 11:06
Yeah, you're right. I didn't understand what Ilya was talking about until you kind of pointed that out.

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Ilya
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 11:07
I saw something called RefreshForce, but you said ReForce.

(I've search Google a lot for good web hosts, and it is hard)

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
Ilya
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 11:14
Umm... ReForce doesn't allow anything new.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
indi
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 11:21
my 19" crt hums along at 100 hertz

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself
Dave J
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 11:24
Stop bragging.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 17:23
Now, now kiddies - play nicely...

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bitJericho
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Posted: 1st Nov 2004 23:31
pff.. if you would have your monitor driver installed rather than the default plug n play driver you wouldn't have any problem

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Ilya
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 04:46
My monitor doesn't have a driver.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
bitJericho
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 05:14
and exactly what kind of monitor would that be?

Don't tell me your using your television set.

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Ilya
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 05:15
An LCD monitor.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
bitJericho
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 05:19
well give me model names or numbers from the back of it..

as god as my witness I will find you a proper driver

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Ilya
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 05:50
1800FP.
*never knew that*
*just realizes he saw drivers on google*

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
Ilya
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 05:54
It's installing...

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
Ilya
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 05:54
It be done.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
Ilya
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 05:58
Refresh rate is still a maximum of 60hz.
(But I am using maximum resolution)

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
FoxBlitzz
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 06:49
Quote: "(But I am using maximum resolution)"


Well, yeah. The higher your resolution is, the lower the maximum refresh rate is. Do you think they could make both 320 x 200 AND 2048 x 1536 run at 240 hz with today's video cards? Nope.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 07:44
but with an lcd monitor it doesn't matter... at least now you're using a proper driver

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