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FPSC Classic Product Chat / FPSC Pricing

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Nov 2004 18:19
Hi all,

There are a number of threads regarding how much FPS Creator will cost, if you can sell your games, etc etc - so here is a single sticky thread which we will keep updated with the latest changes as they are made. For now, here is what has been decided:

We are looking at a non-commercial use version priced at $49.99. This we feel is a fair price that should generate large volume sales for FPSC. Our ultimate plans are for the title to be in the retail sector next year (Amazon, shops, etc), so the price had to be realistic for that market too.

For those of you who want to sell your creations we will offer you a number of routes to market:

* Full commercial license, unlimited titles, Price TBC
* Full commercial license, single title, Price TBC
* Web/Shareware license, single title, Price TBC
* Re-sell via TGC website. Royatly split 60% (Author) / 40% (TGC)

(TBC = To Be Confirmed)

We will update this post when appropriate.

Cheers,

Rich

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
Rob K
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Posted: 1st Nov 2004 23:01 Edited at: 1st Nov 2004 23:02
Quick Currency Conversions (accurate on 1st November 2004):

$49.99 = £28 UK Pounds
$49.99 = €40 Euros

Considering that this is less than the cost of a single game for the PC or a games console, I think this represents pretty good value.


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uman
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Posted: 1st Nov 2004 23:11
Richard,

Thanks for keeping everyone updated. Its much appreciated.

Rob,

It certainly is good value. TGC must expect a lot of sales to make it profitable at that price. I am sure they will achieve their aim.

Personally I would pay a lot more in support of FPSC...though we dont know what the licence fees are yet........its still excellent value for such a base program.
Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Nov 2004 23:15
We want the program to be mass-market (unlike the niche that is DB/BB/etc) which means it has to be priced accordingly.

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Essex
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 06:19
I think the pricing structure sounds pretty much spot-on but one question... will the $49.99 version have TGC splash screens, watermarks etc?

Essex
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 06:21
I am pretty sure they wont only the trial/demo will
Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 07:11
All non-licensed games will have FPSC identity of some (as yet undetermined) kind.

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Tapewormz
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 07:38
The dreaded watermark...*shudder*

Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 07:40
Doubt it will be a water-mark.

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Ilya
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 08:40 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2004 08:41
Should be a splash-screen with a link.

By lisenced, do you mean commercial lisence?

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 09:09
I'm pretty certain it'll be a splash of some kind, most likely at the end of the game (ala T3DGM), although with Lee's game flow features I'm not sure how they'll pan out in execution.

By license I did indeed mean a commercial one. I.e. all games made with the standard "off the shelf" version of FPSC will be un-licensed by default.

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Philip
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 00:16
£28? Thats a bargain. If anything, thats a bit on the cheap side. Anyway, I shouldn't complain - Lee already knows that I'm buying it even though I don't think I'll use it (I'm not a big FPS fan). I'm going to buy it just to support TGC. Maybe I might make one game in it - who knows?

Philip

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Rob K
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 00:22
Quote: " Lee already knows that I'm buying it even though I don't think I'll use it (I'm not a big FPS fan)."


Just make sure you get a few drinks on Lee at the next convention (Hopefully there will be one next year)


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Dylnuge
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 09:44
I think a good way to express it is to require a screen at the beginning or end of game that says "Made by FPS Creator, visit www.fpscreator.com" or somthing like that.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 10:08
We'll require it by enforcing it ourselves. There's no way we'd trust you lot to do it

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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 10:30
I would also require it to be in any documentation that is with the games (help files and what not).

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 10:48
Personally I prefer how Need for Speed Underground (1&2) have the copyright noticed for the Songs they've used in-game.

On the main menu screen you have a small splash at the bottom which pops up every 2minutes.
As from what I understand it, FPSC will build the project completely; it might be an idea to add something like that into it. Perhaps a Gun that pops up and shoots out the title FPSC, and underneath a nice clean website address or copyright notice.

From previous versions of DarkBasic/Professional, and 3D Game Maker, really I think you need a non-instrusive method like that; As it is a constant reminder that it isn't a paid version, but at the same time would blend nicely rather than stick out.
Sort of like a Subliminal Message after a while

I'd also recommend the Artist doing it, because honestly as it stands, i'm not too keen on the current FPSC Logo; or any of the Splashs from previous products. Remember your trying to capture a mass audience rather than a nitché, so you want everything to scream QUALITY; rather than the real information you want people to see.

I mean if you don't add a webaddress, and some corney thing like 'want to see more?' there, it feels like like some annoying popup advert you want the IE Toolbar to kickin' and block; and more like 'wow... so what is this First Person Shooter Creator, and why is it's logo so cool!?'

People know how to use a Search Engine, it'll help to establish it as a professional product rather than a budget product.

Actually I would say this goes double for the website itself right now; you've used flash for it.. which is alright, but really it has been used like a Uni student would use it. There is nothing there which couldn't have been done with some half-decent html/javascript coding to be honest.
Flash is an extremely powerful tool, you want to make sure you use it to give people a real taste of what they'd be getting in to.

Further more, while I've seen some comments from Simon about the artwork provided; giving people a huge choice of models and styles is a nice idea, but again; you want this to cater to the masses not the hobbiests.
While coders with no desernable art skills will be happy with DirectX7 / Playstation-equse models, the every day punter is used to the GameCube / X-Box / Playstation2 titles... Even more over they will be looking for Doom3, FarCry and Half-Life graphics.

While this is a little unrealistic on a large scale, I think it would probably be a good idea to make more generic stuff.
As you said, the end-user can add whatever models he/she wishs to later...

Right now, the models look sub-Quake3. This isn't a knock on the skills here, but more that perhaps TOO much thought is being taken that the end-user is going to want a HUGE choice of models.

I have always found the thing which takes the longest is Animation, Rigging and the actual Animating itself. Mesh usually take a day, maybe 2 depending on the complexity. Skins can also take 2-3days each.

What you want to do is create a bunch of humanoids who can all use basically the same Skeleton; and use a Skeletal animation format.
Just create a bunch of generic animations the end-user can attach to any character (perhaps one for females and one for males).

You add maybe 2/3 variations of a male/female base model, then you could 'update' with clothes. You'd be surprised just how large a selection of models you can create by consolidating resources.
That way packages like DarkMatter and DarkMatter 2 wouldn't have to be so... sparse.

Remember once people have bought the package you can then always release model packs, for extra: Weapons, Models + Visual Hand Models, etc...

I mean if the model is high-quality enough, like the ones Doom3 have; you can totally forgo thinking about the visual hands, becuase you can simple load that model into the memory and hey-presto instant arms without having to create a seperate model.

Shaders ARE important too. Really I know you've let DBPs lapse with only limited support for them, but they are PARAMOUNT for modern games, and that is what someone is going to want to create nowadays.

They want Doom3 and FarCry... although DBP can't give people that without ALOT of work, FPSC should be an optimised engine capable of similar graphics. I'm not saying that exact quality, but without really pushing some graphical capabilities of Dark Basic Professional; this product will fall into the same limited market.

I know damn well DBP is currently capable of some truely remarkable graphics utilising shaders, it doesn't run them anywhere as fast as DirectX (which is very unfortunate) but some well designed 1.1 and 2.0 Shaders specially optimised could do the trick for

Water/Reflections/Refractions/Field of Depth/Fog/Screen Effects/Metallics/Shadows

FX Composer and NVSDK 8.0 both come with a broad selection of standard shaders which could be adapted and made as standard features.
DBPs don't work simply for the fact they are too limited, as they are literally plug'n'play Shaders, but someone using FPSC will want the shader to work without tweaking; or have minor control over altering it's setup.

Also on the point of the Editor, I hope your going to include a selection of 2D views. As I know when I'm using GTKRadiant, and the level starts getting to complex the program will slug my machine until I either lower the visual range or turn off the rendering.
While a 3D editing views are nice, it may become too demanding for low-end systems to be exclusively a 3D view.


Richard Davey
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 11:13
The web site is already well planned and under-way. The current holding page (for that is all it is) is meant to do two things only. Direct those that have landed on the site by mistake to the newsletter and capture some email addresses. Nothing more. The final site is about as far removed from what exists at the moment as you can get.

Quote: "They want Doom3 and FarCry"


They want to be realistic then. You don't get graphics and animation to that level of quality without large teams of texture artists, motion capture studios, modellers, photographers, etc and a production budget running into six figures.

Quote: "Remember once people have bought the package you can then always release model packs"


Absolutely, which we will do. But they have to have something to start with - and it HAS to be diverse and varied in content. 50 "decent" quality models are far more useful than 5 "top" quality ones.

Quote: "Also on the point of the Editor, I hope your going to include a selection of 2D views."


There are no 2D views. The editor doesn't render all of the 3D scene at once (unless you tell it to), but rather the shroud area around the mouse pointer (which you can resize).

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Jiffy
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 15:37
On the point of the watermarks etc. for un-licenced products, it would be nice if you could actually choose from a varity of ways to show it was made with FPSC, and when. i.e. you can choose a logo that says 'Made with FPS Creator' and a link and the start, or a window that pops up at the end. Although this probably wouldn't happen, it would still be nice.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 16:54
Quote: "They want to be realistic then. You don't get graphics and animation to that level of quality without large teams of texture artists, motion capture studios, modellers, photographers, etc and a production budget running into six figures."


Heh, do you even read your own forum?
People quite essentially are, well unrealistic. Especially those who have no idea what it takes to create those high street games.

However when you put that aside, Doom3 was created by a team of 15 people, Half-Life2 was created by a team of 80 people, Angel of Darkness 120 people.

Team Size != Amazing Game
It's the talent behind the resources, in this case your lead artist Simon.

If you look at the number of variations Doom3 has in Marines, Scientists, and Zombies. There appears to be what, 25-30 models in all? Thing is there are only 3-4 Bodies, 4 Heads, 2-3 Skins / Bump Maps. They all use the exact same animation skeleton, and effects are done via scripting.

So with a few models, if done correctly you can make a HUGE variety of versions. I mean, although sure I could live with models of say Unreal Tournament 2003/4 quality, or even Quake3 quality, alright... but from what has been shown, isn't even upto Q3 standard, which if with some nice post-effects you could get away with; but below Q3 you can't really.

Dark Basic is a programming language, you can dismiss the artwork bundled because it isn't the primary goal.
FPSC however isn't a programming language, it's more a drag'n'drop style developer to create your own FPS; So really you do need to beef up the graphical elements.

Those are my thoughts though.


Rob K
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 17:40 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2004 17:44
I agree with Jiffy's suggestion. It would be a good idea if the user could choose which splash to display.

Quote: "Team Size != Amazing Game"


No, but equally, there is no way that you can expect FPSC, a team with only 3 people working on it, to look as good as Half-Life 2 which cost over $40 million dollars and took more than 5 years to make.

Quote: "Right now, the models look sub-Quake3. This isn't a knock on the skills here, but more that perhaps TOO much thought is being taken that the end-user is going to want a HUGE choice of models.
"


Judging by that huge post, you clearly have a lot of free time, so why not use it to do some freelance work for TGC and create some Doom 3 quality models to spice up the package?


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 18:58
Quote: "Judging by that huge post, you clearly have a lot of free time, so why not use it to do some freelance work for TGC and create some Doom 3 quality models to spice up the package?"


i could, but that would depend on if TGC would want a freelancer.
that said, the huge post was written last night while i was coding up an application; was just a few quick thoughts that came to mind.


Richard Davey
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 21:43
We use freelancers on a regular basis. If your skills are good enough, we'd have work for you.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 08:51
Hmm... Oki, well that sound promising.
Might give it a bash making a Doom3 style model and sending it along to you guys to see what you think.

The current sytles have actually interested me quite widely, because Doom3 without shaders; looks pants.

Half-Life2 relies on high poly counts, but the shaders are primative at best.

FarCry everything looks like your playing with Action Men (plastic).

So would be interesting to find a nice style which would be suitable for Shader, Non-Shader, Dot3 types of program. If you have any special request you'd like to see me try, let me know


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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 23:40
How's Deliverence going?
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Posted: 4th Nov 2004 23:57
Ummm... yes...

I presume it will find its way into PC World and what-not, and hopefully some linkup with PC magazines too...

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Nov 2004 02:22
comming along quite nicely now actually.
moving the project from DBP has given me alot more freedom, but as it is no longer a DBP project; no point in talking about it here now.

the project is still going along though, and there will be a limited availability demo at christmas. if your hoping to see a dbp version or news about it here though; you'll be disappointed.

things will be very interesting for 2005 though.


Chris K
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Posted: 5th Nov 2004 02:32
Alrighty.

Just make sure you don't forget here when you get some screenshots out.
flibX0r
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Posted: 10th Nov 2004 09:36
I think you should adopt the original Escape Velocity method. If you haven't registered, then there is a guy called Captain Hector, who will fly pas and tell you to register the game. After a while he stops being nice and starts shooting at you, which is pretty nasty considering that he is immortal.

I don't know how you could do that with FPSC though


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gbuilder
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Posted: 10th Nov 2004 13:54
The $49.99 initial amount is reasonable as most have agreed but the success of FPS Creator I think will depend on...

Quote: "
* Full commercial license, unlimited titles, Price TBC
* Full commercial license, single title, Price TBC
* Web/Shareware license, single title, Price TBC
* Re-sell via TGC website. Royatly split 60% (Author) / 40% (TGC)
"


Just how much these will be.
For example, the Web/shareware license would need to be quite low to encourage young bedroom coders to create a website and sell their creations.
I have downloaded the Walkthrough and am quite impressed with the apparent ease of level creation. Of course it will be the media content that determines the popularity of a game.

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BatVink
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Posted: 10th Nov 2004 18:38
From what I have read, I see this being a viral product. Friends will buy FPSC so they can build and exchange games, by loading them up with the standard, £28.00 engine. And shifting volumes generates more interest.

But then, I guess TGC have already thought of that

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ok sorry for posting in a thread that hasnt had been posted in for almost 2 months, but i wanted to know if beta testing FPSC is already done. if not, i would love to be a beta tester. i am a 3D modeler and working animator and i have experience with 3dsmax. who can i email about beta testing? also, i own a company called Onyx 21 Studios, and we are working on our first game called Dead Metal which is a horror/survival and FPS game. (i wont get into any details of this though). well, any info is great! you can also email me at Viper680@hotmail.com thanks!

My 3D site: http://www.necksmasher3D.tk

I love 3D modeling, and 3dsmax, and Discreet for making 3dsmax, and of course chicks!
Xeron3D
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also, if by any chance TGC wants or needs any freelance 3D modelers, i am willing to do some work. i think my highest point for 3D modeling is architecture. i am also very skilled in low poly modeling.

i am also looking forward to buying FPSC (i already bought DB and DB Pro a long time ago, but i am not at all skilled at programming.)

My 3D site: http://www.necksmasher3D.tk

I love 3D modeling, and 3dsmax, and Discreet for making 3dsmax, and of course chicks!
Noldor
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Posted: 12th Jan 2005 08:01
Why is the price 49.99 and not 50?
I dont think it is expensive or anything
i youst wonder. Are you trying to make
it look less expensive?
blanky
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Posted: 15th Jan 2005 05:11
In the UK at least, it's bog-standard practice - wherever you go, 'SPECIAL OFFER!! NOW CDs ONLY £3.99!!!!'.

(Note: Referred-to CDs are probably cheap crap that nobody can shift.)

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Noah
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Posted: 15th Jan 2005 05:21
Quote: "I have downloaded the Walkthrough and am quite impressed with the apparent ease of level creation. Of course it will be the media content that determines the popularity of a game."

Ummmmm, where's this located?
SoulMan
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Posted: 15th Jan 2005 06:01
He's talking about the video walkthough that was in the October 2004 issue of the magazine.
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Coldnews
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Quote: " i am a 3D modeler and working animator and i have experience with 3dsmax."

The first person who has said something like that in a forum and not been crap. I looked at his website. Its not too bad. wierd.

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Noah
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Posted: 15th Jan 2005 06:46
Quote: " He's talking about the video walkthough that was in the October 2004 issue of the magazine."

Is that the newsletter? Which magazine?
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Posted: 15th Jan 2005 07:33
It's the magazine that is put out on this website by TGC.
Go to the front page of this website and look on the left side, you can't miss it.
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Noah
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Posted: 15th Jan 2005 08:21
thx
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Posted: 20th Jan 2005 10:21
WHOA

Best deal ever!!!

Noah
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Posted: 21st Jan 2005 06:55
huh?

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Posted: 21st Jan 2005 10:05
Quote: " huh?"


You asking me?

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Posted: 21st Jan 2005 22:22



3d meets 2d
Noah
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2005 06:51
yeah. . .but i just got it nevermind

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Posted: 23rd Jan 2005 00:44 Edited at: 23rd Jan 2005 00:44
Quote: "Thank god they havent infected general talk. N00bs."

HEY!

Shadow Angel
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 17:58
UK People - The price of FPSC will be

£30

And It'll be out 2 weeks on friday,
Or just 12 days

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Noah
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Posted: 30th Jan 2005 20:31
$56

I don't want a signature.
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 00:42
Is that with or without VAT ? If its without then the actual price is £35.25

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