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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Building AMD 64 System - Need advice.

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Starlight
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Posted: 13th Nov 2004 06:39
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I am researching in building a new PC. It will be a AMD 64 system. I need people\'s feedback on what motherboard you would recommend. I am a serious gamer! Says it all really! Well I\'m not that sad really! But its needs to be a high end spec for playing serious games.

I have been looking at the Gigabyte GA-K8NSNXP-939 see here:
http://tw.giga-byte.com/Motherboard/Products/Products_GA-K8NSNXP-939.htm

What\'s here opinion\'s ?

Also what monitor would you recommend? As for graphics card well...the 6800 looks good..but give your comments anyway.

And what sound card would you recommend?

Cheers guys mine's a beer, btw.

Nothing would be what it is. Because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary-wise - what it is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be it would. You See?

Lewis Carroll, Alice In Wonderland
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Starlight
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Posted: 13th Nov 2004 06:53
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Ok, great I can't edit my post. If you haven't figured it out the above sentence should say: "What is your opinion?"

"Mr Anderson...still don't reckonise me...still using all your muscles apart from the one that really matters."

- Smith, The Matrix Movies.
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The Real 87
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Posted: 13th Nov 2004 07:20 Edited at: 13th Nov 2004 07:21
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DO NOT GET A 6800, get a Radion X800, more expensive but much better.

Get a monitor from a junk yard they are all ultimatly the same.

The mother board looks ok, if you plan on getting linux. Windows does not have a 64 bit OS so as of yet the 64 bit CPUs are not really showing their power, Linux on the other hand does have a 64 but OS, so study ur linux and check from linux drivers on EVERYTHING that you buy.

Get a 7.1 sound card if you plan on playing Doom 3, it is scary as hell if you have suround.

This is my counting program
do: print "87" : loop
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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 13th Nov 2004 19:47
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Quote: "DO NOT GET A 6800, get a Radion X800, more expensive but much better."


yeh but does the X800 support SLI? i reckon its very close call from what i've heard in places, with the 6800 just in the lead, but i'll leave it to the opinions of those who have experienced both cards (with SLI too).

gigabyte make good motherboards, i havent had any problems with my gigabyte nforce2, though i'd wait a while, even though nforce3 has only been out a while, i looked on the nvidia website recently and it was on about nforce 4 already.

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Mentor
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Posted: 13th Nov 2004 22:25
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Quote: "Get a 7.1 sound card if you plan on playing Doom 3, it is scary as hell if you have suround.
"


I have , with big speakers, it isn`t , and I have a heart condition too...I would have noticed if it was realy scary (well..my family would )

Mentor.

PC1: P4 3ghz, 1gig mem, 3x160gig hd`s, Radeon 9800pro w cooler (3rd gfx card), 6 way speakers.
PC2: AMD 2ghz, 512mb ram, FX5200 ultra, 16 bit SB.
Mini ATX cases suck.
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Starlight
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Posted: 13th Nov 2004 23:07
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Thanks for the input boys/girls. Although I take issue on "buying any old monitor of the back of a lorry". You need a good monitor otherwise you have crap. ie. the different between multi-scan and non multi ones. You need to look out for the 0.025 mm etc. I have a ADI 17" MicroScan Monitor (Sony Triniton Tube) and its been excellent and perhaps I won't change it just yet but if I did then I might go for a flat screen one and a larger screen 21" maybe but one has to be careful since when I got my 17" a few years ago there was a ADI 19" available but according to the test labs its image was crap but the 17" was superb.

At the moment I've got a MSI Nvidia nForce 2 chipset motherboard (K7N2 Delta) with a AMD XP 3200+ and a Hercules ATI 9800 PRO 128 MB graphics card. Yes its a good setup and boy its it fast but I've had problems with overheading with the CHIPSET and the CPU where in games everything just freezes and this happens if the temp. goes over 50 degrees C. I've put in a few large fans, now better than before but still can over heat of running at max. FSB. I don't really need to get a new system yet .... just eager to try out the AMD 64 and the Nvidia 6800 but I'll do some research on the ATI X800 as you suggested, thanks.

Also if you are in the UK what broadband ISP would you recommend? I'd go for the 512K or 1MB (unlimited surfing). I'm on crappy 56k but want to upgrade to broadband.

"Mr Anderson...still don't reckonise me...still using all your muscles apart from the one that really matters."

- Smith, The Matrix Movies.
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Dot Merix
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Posted: 14th Nov 2004 12:34
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Other thing you need to watch out for is... isnt the radeon x800 PCIE?(express) It requires a completely different slot to be placed in than a regular video card at 8x does, doesnt it?



WindowsXP Home(Service pack 2), Athlon XP 2400+(2.1Ghz), 1GIG Ram, Ati Radeon 9800Pro 128MB.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Nov 2004 13:59
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Quote: "DO NOT GET A 6800, get a Radion X800, more expensive but much better."


Erm... the X800's are cheaper than thier 6800 Counterparts by around $50 in every case.

DirectX, generally speaking; The X800 is an overall a better performer in popular games. Though best to note that the largest gap I've seen between these cards so far has been 8FPS and that is only in Half-Life 2. It however does suffer from similar problem to the 9-Series, not surprising given they are basically the same chip.

OpenGL, 6800 dominates. Not just by a little, but by ALOT. As there aren't many games that utilise OpenGL any more though, it isn't exactly a major point of the card unless you plan to be using any 3D Packages like 3D Studio Max, Maya, or Softimage|XSI.

Both cards come in PCI-X and AGP versions.
(X600/700 and 6600 Cards only come in PCI-X versions)

The 6800 is capable of much quicker Pixel Processing. Almost 2x faster than the X800. This is good if you plan to be playing alot of demanding 2D Games, or Photoshop.

The X800 has better quality FSAA for Detail Areas.
The 6800 has better quality FSAA for General Areas.

The 6800 has next generation shader technology, as well as support for up to 4 monitors at once; including mixxed Analog and Digital output. It also has a built-in Video Codec, which allows quicker Video Editing, Retrieval, and Processing.

I would warn you before viewing online Benchmark tests:

6800 - X800
6800 GT - X800 PRO
6800 Ultra - X800 XT
6800 Extreme - X800 Platinum

It might seem odd for me to have listed the cards like that, but i've noticed in online benchmarks they seem to like pitting the 6800 Ultra against the X800 Platinum.
It is stupid because it's like pitting the FX5900 against the 9800XT; they're not in the same bloody class.

Quote: "The mother board looks ok, if you plan on getting linux. Windows does not have a 64 bit OS so as of yet the 64 bit CPUs are not really showing their power, Linux on the other hand does have a 64 but OS, so study ur linux and check from linux drivers on EVERYTHING that you buy."


Microsoft Windows XP 64-bit for Itainium (IA64) / AMD 64-bit (x86-64) has been out for almost 2years. It will cost you $120 for a full purchase, if you go to the AMD Website you may download a free 180-day Trial version.

Also Microsoft .NET 1.1 & 2.0 provide Windows XP 32-bit with native 64-bit processing abilities.

In my experience with Linux over the past year, it doesn't particularly like the AMD Processor much. You can search for online benchmarks of this if you choose to, but 32->64 makes almost no difference with an Athlon64. Not as far as SuSE or Red Hat is conserned at any rate.

Quote: "Get a 7.1 sound card if you plan on playing Doom 3, it is scary as hell if you have suround."


I would say there isn't alot of difference between 5.1 and 7.1; I've had both and it's just more of a pain in the ass to setup the extra sat speakers.

Audigy2 + CambridgeWorks 5100 would be my suggestion.

As for a motherboard; The K8T800 is a nice Via board, but really if you want to have something with a true 'bite' to it. Wait until after Christmas to get yourself an nForce4.

Monitor wise... CTX, best price, performance and colour definition.


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SeaScape
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 05:50 Edited at: 17th Nov 2004 07:23
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Hello Starlight,

I would recommend the DFI motherboard I purchased (see signature banner). Very overclockable and getting excellent reviews!

Regarding 754 vs. 939 sockets... I don't think the 939 socket motherboards are that good right now. There are not that many performance differences between the 754-based one I bought and a 939-based one. If there are any differences, they are minute at best. I chose the 754-pin Athlon 64 3400+ w/ 512KB L2 cache (Newcastle core). Faster than a 939-pin 3500+ in most tests I have seen, and much cheaper too.

I chose to spend more on the video card, which matters the most when it comes to playing games. I received DOOM 3 for free with the BFG card I purchased, which is pretty cool. Saves me $50...

On Wednesday or Thursday, my system will finally be up and running. Just waiting for my Thermaltake Venus 12 heatsink. It is very hard to get one of them in the stores, so I had to order it online.

I have all the Windows XP software I have purchased over the last year ready (using in Virtual PC right now), and all of it will finally be on a real Windows XP Pro system.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 08:16
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Quote: "Regarding 754 vs. 939 sockets... I don't think the 939 socket motherboards are that good right now. There are not that many performance differences between the 754-based one I bought and a 939-based one. If there are any differences, they are minute at best. I chose the 754-pin Athlon 64 3400+ w/ 512KB L2 cache (Newcastle core). Faster than a 939-pin 3500+ in most tests I have seen, and much cheaper too."


Yeah, erm... there are HUGE difference in not only performance but also the ability to upgrade.
940-pin is the new standard AMD are sticking with.

- HyperTransport runs at 2.0GHz (as oppose to 1.6GHz)
- Processors have Dual Data Lines, rather than Single Data Lines
- Your Processor will be upgradeable with new versions
- PCI-X (need i say more?)

There are a good few technical differences.
While a benchmark will sit there and show,

Athlon64 754-pin 3200+ out performance the 940-pin 3200+; there is something you have to remember here.

754-pin version is 200MHz faster. 940-pin has 512KB more Cache.
When your processors are only running at 2.2/2.4GHz in order to run at 3.2GHz equivilant Pentium Ratings, that extra speed is invaluable.

But this is only when the processor is trying to run everyday tasks. You put the Processor through Games / 3D Applications / 2D Applications, anything which requires a high processor and memory bandwidth and just watch the 940-pin processors lead by a very noticeable margin.

In Doom3, Cache and Memory speed is far more important than raw processing speed. This goes for alot of id Software's games.

While i'm not going to knock the old format processor, or the nForce3 boards (after all i have one); I would say it will be WORTH waiting until just after christmas.
Prices will drop, and new technologies will be out.

You should be able to pick up an easily upgradeable
Athlon64 3400+ 940pin / 512MB DDR2100 / GeForce 6600 Ultra PCI-X / nForce4 - platform for under $350

alright so not bleeding edge performance, but still more than enough for any game on the market.


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SeaScape
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 08:33
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@ Raven

It is 939-pin not 940-pin. The 940-pin processor is the older Opteron. I got the 754-pin Newcastle core 3400+ w/ 512 KB L2 cache, which is running either the same or better than a 939-pin 3500+ in a number of tests. Plus, it's much cheaper!

As for upgradability... I don't live on the bleeding edge, because I think for the most part, it is pointless to waste money to only get a few more frames per second in a game. The 939 socket is AMD's future for only about the next year or so. What comes after that? I think the system I am building now will suffice for at least three years or so. When I am ready to build a faster system, I will just get a new motherboard and processor, and this system will be passed to my wife when I do that.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 08:53
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Quote: "It is 939-pin not 940-pin."


No the socket is capable both.

Quote: "The 940-pin processor is the older Opteron."


my Athlon64 FX-55 would disagree with you.

Quote: "I got the 754-pin Newcastle core 3400+ w/ 512 KB L2 cache, which is running either the same or better than a 939-pin 3500+ in a number of tests. Plus, it's much cheaper!"


well, simply saying the PR means nothing. How Much Cache does the CPU have? How fast is the Core? Is it a Single or Double-Data Core?
from what I have heard of the 3500+ Processors they ALL perform poorly. They also may be overpriced, but I can guarentee you; a 940-pin version of the processor your running (3400+) will out-perform yours in any game.

You always purchase last years technology at the sake of saving what, £10-20; and really all your doing is making it MORE expensive when you upgrade in a year or twos time.
This way you can upgrade for a fraction of the cost that it would if you were to replace your whole system.

Also, just because your forum name is Athlon64, doesn't mean you know everything about the processors. I would suggest you go and do your homework, and by that I don't mean opening up Tom's Hardware Page and looking at the pretty diagrams.


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SeaScape
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 12:42 Edited at: 17th Nov 2004 12:50
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Quote: "from me: "It is 939-pin not 940-pin."

from you: "No the socket is capable both.""


Sorry Raven, but you cannot drop a 939-pin processor into a 940-pin socket. Won't work, and you should recant your statement. You should do your homework I think.

Quote: "from me: The 940-pin processor is the older Opteron.

from you: my Athlon64 FX-55 would disagree with you."


Sorry, I forgot to mention the older expensive FX processors. My bad... Like who really can justify spending hundreds more to get a few more frames per second or doing a task 10 secs sooner? Only someone like you I guess... All new Opterons are going to be 939-pin based.

Quote: "from me: I got the 754-pin Newcastle core 3400+ w/ 512 KB L2 cache, which is running either the same or better than a 939-pin 3500+ in a number of tests. Plus, it's much cheaper!

from you: well, simply saying the PR means nothing. How Much Cache does the CPU have? How fast is the Core? Is it a Single or Double-Data Core? from what I have heard of the 3500+ Processors they ALL perform poorly. They also may be overpriced, but I can guarentee you; a 940-pin version of the processor your running (3400+) will out-perform yours in any game."


PR? I don't care what AMD says about their processors, and I also don't care if your processor beats mine in any test. Why don't you mention your penis size to everyone too while you are at it, since you seem to be a real man? Since I have no experience using AMD processors, I have relied on a number of very intensive reviews of the one I chose. Any smart shopper knows that (s)he needs to read reviews on products. Also, I am not going to waste my time waiting for a dual core processor, when I need a computer NOW, not next year. I don't live in the future, because no one can predict the future. The only one that can is God, and I am not God.

Quote: "from you: You always purchase last years technology at the sake of saving what, £10-20; and really all your doing is making it MORE expensive when you upgrade in a year or twos time. This way you can upgrade for a fraction of the cost that it would if you were to replace your whole system."


Really now? Do you have RFID tags on all the merchandise I buy every year to determine my buying habits? Please... That is a very presumptuous statement don't you think? Is the 6800 GT card I purchased last years' technology? Sorry, but it is quite current since it was just released within the last couple of months. Are the Memorex 16X dual layer DVD burners I bought not current too? Again, wrong! This drive is getting excellent reviews on the Web. Are my two SATA drives last year's technology? Gee, I thought they were replacing PATA drives. Maybe you can afford all the best stuff, but I cannot due to the fact that I am studying to become a Mathematics teacher. Therefore, I have little disposable income. When I graduate and get a nice teaching position, then I am going to buy the parts to build a new kick-ass system. My wife will get this system. Also, I will buy the best PowerMac G5 at the time. I'm a dual platform person...

Quote: "from you: Also, just because your forum name is Athlon64, doesn't mean you know everything about the processors. I would suggest you go and do your homework, and by that I don't mean opening up Tom's Hardware Page and looking at the pretty diagrams."


How nice that you assume I don't know everything. Again, quite presumptuous aren't you Raven? Just because a person forgets to mention your precious over-priced FX processor, doesn't mean that they do not know anything.

My real name is James - boring for a forum name. Raven... Oh yes, that is such an awe-inspiring forum name. Grow up! Sheesh!

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 13:33
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Geez, i don't even know where the hell to start with that post.

Seriously, all I'm going to say this time is:
Get your facts right..

While you can sit there an try to insult me all you want, simple fact of the matter is; your nothing bar a fanboy who obviously know little to nothing about the technology he is so damn fanatical about.

I would wager big cash that the Athlon64 you have currently is your only one, and it's primary use is for computer games.
Some of us however have used them since release, and have been developing low-level requiring knowlage of thier operations and version differences.

Just because I can't sit here and tell you the name given to each core, I can tell you what each different variation is capable of based on thier Family Number and Stepping.

So before you decide to sit down and spout of your half-understanding of a new technology AS so many people want to when they are new to them, I would STRONGLY suggest you follow the link I provided for you. As I'm sick and tired of arguing and wasting my time on morons who can't find out REAL information for themselves.


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SeaScape
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 14:28
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Quote: "Geez, i don't even know where the hell to start with that post."


You can start by not being so bloody arrogant. That would help immensely!

Quote: "Seriously, all I'm going to say this time is:
Get your facts right.."


Look, I am going to repeat myself only once so you comprehend this. You cannot drop a 939-pin processor into a 940-pin socket, nor vice-versa. Do that and you will fry your processor and/or motherboard.

Quote: "While you can sit there an try to insult me all you want, simple fact of the matter is; your nothing bar a fanboy who obviously know little to nothing about the technology he is so damn fanatical about."


Sorry, but I am not a fanboy. You are obviously a "boy," judging from your responses to me. Grow up please...

Quote: "I would wager big cash that the Athlon64 you have currently is your only one, and it's primary use is for computer games. Some of us however have used them since release, and have been developing low-level requiring knowlage of thier operations and version differences."


Well then, I guess you better send me that big cash tomorrow morning for being such a presumptuous @sshole. Sorry, but I don't just play computer games. Didn't I previously mention that I have used PCs for years, since MS-DOS 1.0? I just never liked them until Windows XP Professional came along. I was originally an Amiga user, then Macintosh, and I am adding a real Windows PC to my computer room (instead of using Virtual PC on my Power Mac).

Quote: "Just because I can't sit here and tell you the name given to each core, I can tell you what each different variation is capable of based on thier Family Number and Stepping."


I know what the Athlon 64 3400+ (Newcastle core) is capable of. You don't have to tell me.

Quote: "So before you decide to sit down and spout of your half-understanding of a new technology AS so many people want to when they are new to them, I would STRONGLY suggest you follow the link I provided for you. As I'm sick and tired of arguing and wasting my time on morons who can't find out REAL information for themselves."


Yes, I have read all of that, but AMD doesn't tell you how bad some of the 939-pin processors perform. The one I have is as fast or faster than a 939-pin 3500+. So why waste money to go with the 939-pin socket when it is not even mature yet? Wasted money to me!

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DeepBlue
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 14:47 Edited at: 17th Nov 2004 14:50
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@Athlon64/Raven

This thread has turned from someone asking for some relatively simple advice & recommendations on motherboards/grfx cards, into a mud-slinging match regarding processor specifications & technical knowledge. If it adds nothing constructive to the thread I would suggest not posting.

@Starlight

The Gigabyte GA-K8NSNXP-939 looks like a perfectly adequate motherboard although if it is not an imminent purchase you may want to consider purchasing a PCI-E based motherboard rather than an AGP based one.

On that note if anyone is purchasing a PCI-E based motherboard you should be aware of the PSU requirements. As the PCI-E slot/s are allowed to draw upto 75W I would recommend having at least a 400W PSU.

You may want to hang on a little if you can as the first 'true' PCI-E are only now starting to appear (no PCI-E to AGP bridge).

Quote: "Also if you are in the UK what broadband ISP would you recommend? I'd go for the 512K or 1MB (unlimited surfing). "


Been various threads on unlimited surfing, I personally don't like having a badwidth cap so I'm with http://www.onetel.co.uk/ which is fine as long as you don't want a static IP address on the cheapest option. http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/ offers capped fast access pretty cheap. I have to say that I've never had a problem with onetel & even thier sales department has more technical knowledge than many of the other ISP's I have to speak to during my work.

[Edit]
More posts while I was writing mine with personal insults (against forum rules). May as well look forward to your lock/ban I guess.
[Edit]

DeepBlue

The coder formerly known as Twynklet.
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Dave J
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Posted: 17th Nov 2004 15:36
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Pointless bickering is just that - pointless. Flamewars aren't going to get you anywhere and it doesn't look like this thread is going to turn around anytime soon, as such, it will be locked. Hopefully Starlight can salvage something from the posts that have already been made.




"Computers are useless - They can only give you answers."
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