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Geek Culture / Brain grown from rat cells learns to fly jet

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Benjamin
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 07:50
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/12/05/wbrain05.xml

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Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 07:54
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Very old, still cool. I knew about this like 3-4 weeks ago


"And C++ has 2 version Microsoft visual C++ and Bordland C++."
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Benjamin
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 07:56
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Oh ok..why did no one tell me?

Its pretty interesting.

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FINN MAN
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 07:56
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that is nuts, just think what can come out of this.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 08:04 Edited at: 9th Dec 2004 08:05
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Something doesn't seem quite right about you...

EDIT: You stole my avatar!

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Dave J
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 08:14
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Whatchu talkin' about?


"Computers are useless - They can only give you answers."
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Ilya
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 08:35
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Weeee....

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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Benjamin
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 08:40 Edited at: 9th Dec 2004 08:41
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O_O!

O_O!

clones O_O!

*beats you both with a stick*


...O_O

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Dave J
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 08:41
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Never! We clones have been physically enhanced, you cannot defeat us!


"Computers are useless - They can only give you answers."
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Benjamin
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 08:43
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Oh damnit nevermind ..

Your mean, you know that?

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Preston C
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 08:54
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Yup

Intel Celeron 1.3 Ghrz | 512 MB Ram | NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 128MB
MSVC++ .Net | MSVC# 2005 | Wings3D | CharacterFX | Gimp v2.0
Prayne de crabug ahm rinedere be-yogt iglo kes gron
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Benjamin
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 08:57 Edited at: 9th Dec 2004 08:59
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I've made a new siggy that would suit you well :

[href url=http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m= logout]http://www.excaver.com/exeatsig.jpg[/href]

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Benjamin
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 08:58
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Damnit..

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Major Payn
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 09:32
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Wow this is remarkable! With stuff like this, ture AI seems to be a very real possiblity, whether that is good or bad, who knows.

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problem anymore.
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Ilya
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 10:56
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I'd be funny if everyone on the fourms had the avatar.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 11:08
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Indeed it would.

Crazy Donut Productions, Current Project: Project Starbuks
Sony stole our name!
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Dave J
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 11:25
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Quote: "Damnit.."


Bwahahaha, learn to use the forum tags... [url=http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=lo[b][/b]gout]NEWB[/url]!!!


"Computers are useless - They can only give you answers."
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Ilya
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 11:31 Edited at: 9th Dec 2004 14:40
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Well,
Quote: "Sun Nov 24th 2002"


So he's not a noob.

Does this work:
[Link Removed To Protect the Innocent]
Yay! I bypassed the security.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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Neil19533
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 11:52
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crazy i thought you were talking to yourself.

Any spelling mistakes are totally In tensional.
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Jimmy
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 12:03
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WHAT'S WITH ALL THE MARIO YOSHIS

You know, that's practically pornography. It blinds me eye brains.


Remember, Jimmy still loves you.
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 12:06
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Bad Jimmy. Bad.

Crazy Donut Productions, Current Project: Project Starbuks
Sony stole our name!
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Dave J
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 14:42
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Quote: "Well,
[quote]Sun Nov 24th 2002"


So he's not a noob.[/quote]

Calling someone a newbie is not an indication of how long they've been here, it's an indication of their experience. However, usually the longer you've been here, the greater your experience is.


"Computers are useless - They can only give you answers."
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MikeyP
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 15:37
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I got confused during the reading of the article. How could the 'brain' control the aircraft and learn how to fly it, how did it know it was crashing? It has no eyes!
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BatVink
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 15:58
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So let me get this right...nobody ever reports any experimentation on growing brains for tens of thousands of years, then all of a sudden somebody grows one, and it can fly a jet plane?

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Van B
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 16:57
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I'm inclined to agree Batvink, seems a little hard to swallow.

I mean - theres a world of freakin difference between keeping a line straight and flying a jet!. It's the science world getting all fantastical again - reporting on what might be possible instead of what is actually possible.

These scientists need to stop poking about in our heads - brains are notoriously unreliable things. I mean, a brain in a petre might not be too different to the brain in our heads, one day it might just decide that it can't be bothered and just let the plane land how it likes (like upside down in the sea for instance). Imagine returning your PC to PCWorld because it's depressed!.


Van-B


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BatVink
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 19:03
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Quote: "Imagine returning your PC to PCWorld because it's depressed!."




BatVink
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Ilya
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 20:18 Edited at: 9th Dec 2004 20:19
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Quote: "I mean, a brain in a petre might not be too different to the brain in our heads, one day it might just decide that it can't be bothered and just let the plane land how it likes"

I doubt it has feelings and can do anything more than fly a plane.

Quote: "Imagine returning your PC to PCWorld because it's depressed!"

How would it do that? It could commit suicide.


And I have another avatar.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 20:39
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I believe the story. Even if it isn't true, the explenation would work, so it makes no difference.

All the brain does is correct a random flight path so that it is straightened out. Like a hurricane throwing the plane all over the place could be corrected. Or low flying would be possible.

Use the same impulses in a real plane, and it would still work, so the fact that this is a simulator makes no difference.

This is a great discovery.

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Van B
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 20:59
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But it's simply not possible - not how they suggest at least.

I mean, how does this brain gather the information from a complex aircraft? - And how do trained pilots feel about being replaced by petre dishes?. The fact that the brain is programmed should proove that it's not doing anything that can't be done with a microprocessor. If the brain tried to do anything remotely rat-like, I'd be a helluva lot more impressed. When they have to lay blocks of cheese on the runway to get the plane to land, then they can break the piniata and claim a rat was flying the plane .

It will no doubt happen in the future - but tabloid style sensationalism like this should always be taken with a pinch (or 9) of salt.


Van-B


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 21:24 Edited at: 9th Dec 2004 21:31
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Quote: "I mean, how does this brain gather the information from a complex aircraft?"


The brain works by processing electrical impulses. The connections between the synapses (I think) become stronger, or generate a stronger electrical charge when something is TRUE. The strength becomes weaker when something is FALSE. There is also an inbetween setting which is usually called MAYBE. Funny that you mention salt, but salt is the conductor of the charge. Potassium is the negative charge. (It might be the other way around.) So if you can control the charge, you can teach the brain instructions.

My explenation is a bit simple. Here is a better explenation.


http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/synapse.html
I have always thought that it is interesting that mokeys love salt, and bananas. Because salt is the positive charge of the brain, and bananas contain potassium. So that might explain our heightened intelligence.

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Van B
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 22:04
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Yeah I imagined something like that - but I was thinking more along the lines of how the brain understands these signals. Like it might be possible to program set responses, but that would make it an organic processor, it's not thinking for itself - because thinking is just a brains way of sorting out the information and instinct, I don't see how the rat-brain could understand it to a point where we'd ever trust it with a jet. I mean, say the brain's plane is heading towards another plane, a pilot would alter the course because he knows the consequences, a rat brain would alter the course because it has been told to avoid other aircraft. Now the pilot would alter the course safely, and get back on track depending on the conditions - my problem is that I don't see how any device (organic or otherwise) could make the same judgements without years of natural preservation instinct, common sense, and intense training - now or in the future.


Van-B


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 22:32 Edited at: 9th Dec 2004 22:40
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It's not fair to judge AI based on eyesight information. Eyes are like an addition to the brain, like a graphic card is an addition to a computer. If the rat brain had eyes it could avoid the other aircraft the same as we could.

When you test a computer AI program, and ask it what colour is an apple, you think to yourself.. "The programmer told it the colour of the apple." We are unfair at testing AI when it comes to eyesight.

Imagine that you know that an apple is green. You actually recieve a lot more information than you think. You now know that a leaf is green, and that a wheelbarrow is often green. Grass is green. You recieve thousands of answers to thousands of questions in just 1 second.

'An apple is green' = Infinate information.


All that the rat brain is doing at the moment is ...

Left = Off Course : Go right

Right = Off Course : Go Left.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 22:45
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Quote: "Bwahahaha, learn to use the forum tags... NEWB!!!"

It seems your the n00b not realising what happened . I was trying to make a link with the logout address in it, so I tried using a space to stop the forum from detecting it, but it messed up the tags. So there

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Van B
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 23:10
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I think that posting a masked link to the logout script will probably lead you into a 24 hour ban.

Pinch,
I know what your saying, but the way I see it is if they can't program a computer to fly a plane independently, how can they expect us to believe they've programmed a lump of offal to do it .


Van-B


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Benjamin
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 23:35
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Quote: " I think that posting a masked link to the logout script will probably lead you into a 24 hour ban."

Yeah I think that too . Still, theres no way to do it..

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MikeyP
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 23:47
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This 'brain' has to be smaller than a rats brain, right? And a rat cannot fly a plane. Can it?
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 23:51 Edited at: 9th Dec 2004 23:52
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Quote: "Pinch,
I know what your saying, but the way I see it is if they can't program a computer to fly a plane independently, how can they expect us to believe they've programmed a lump of offal to do it "


I think they can program a computer to do this. I think it is the speed increase that is important. The rat brain is probably very fast. Plus it taught itself, which is also important. Nearal networks teach themselves similar things.

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JerBil
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 01:55 Edited at: 10th Dec 2004 01:58
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"This is your pilot speaking. Today we'll be flying at an altitude of...LOOK OUT FOR THE CHEESE!!!!"



-JerBil
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Peter H
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 02:09 Edited at: 10th Dec 2004 02:13
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O_o

"We make the worst games in the universe."

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 02:11
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Lol Yeah!!!

Scram Jet spreads bubonic plaigue around the world in 3hr 20 mins!!!

Lady finds Harrier Jumpjet in her U-Bend!!!

Cat gets sucked into engines whilst chasing a Jumbo Jet!!!


Errr...etc.

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BatVink
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 02:57
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Quote: "Plus it taught itself, which is also important"


No it didn't...

The "brain", grown from 25,000 neural cells extracted from a single rat embryo, has been taught to fly an F-22 jet simulator

BatVink
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David T
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 02:59
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They also say it learnt from its mistakes, eventually perfecting flight.

Get 15 new commands, all the date / time commands left out of DBPro for free!
DOWNLOAD PLUGINS HERE: http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/ and select "DarkBasic"
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 05:46
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I mean it wasn't programmed, it was basically whipped when it made a mistake. Like training a pet.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 05:50
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I don't understand how it would know that it did something wrong

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Ilya
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 05:52
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By being shocked.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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Major Payn
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 05:56
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This is amazing! I am amazed by this amazingly amazing descovery of amazing things!

Guns arnt the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arnt a problem anymore.
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Ilya
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 05:57
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Yippie.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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TKF15H
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 05:58 Edited at: 10th Dec 2004 06:01
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real or not, I think a biological brain like that would be best for document scanners. Ever tried to scan a text as a text instead of as an image? Chances are you'll have hundreds of mistakes, causing you more work than writing the document yourself. A rat brain would most likely recoginze each letter more easily. The only problem would be caused by scanning pictures of cheese.
Are these things supposed to be fed or something? How does the oxigen get to the cells??

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Benjamin
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 06:01
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Its a myth that rats like cheese...trust me.

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Ilya
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 06:02
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Plant cells. That will solve everything.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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