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Dark GDK / GameDev.net Post : "Dark Game SDK available"

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Toby Quan
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Posted: 16th Dec 2004 22:31
A posting titled "Dark Game SDK available" was put onto GameDev.net yesterday. It seems to be generating a lot of negative comments.

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=288492
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 16th Dec 2004 22:45 Edited at: 16th Dec 2004 22:48
The only negative comments I read is the "Price", "ELUA" and "Only Windows".

Doesn't seem to negative to me. The comments were not talking about the "product itself" which is really what it comes down to.

We have already made 2 small working games with the SDK. No complaints here.

-This...is my boomstick!
Emjay
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Posted: 16th Dec 2004 23:48
I saw the article on gamedev.net and immediately came here and bought the SDK (yesterday) So don't worry about any negativity posted by a minority few. The SDK is a great purchase and works brillianyly and deserves every success.
Toby Quan
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Posted: 16th Dec 2004 23:49 Edited at: 16th Dec 2004 23:51
Instead of saying "generating a lot of negative comments" I should have said "generating a few negative comments". I didn't mean to imply that it was starting a flame war or anything.

The negative comments I was referring to were:

Quote: "Is this a joke?"


and

Quote: "don't waste your time with this.It makes me feel quite angry when people like Lee Bamber does this kinf of thing.Its simply greed,nothing else."


On the post, it also does include an equal amount of positive comments and fair critiques as well.
Steve O
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Posted: 16th Dec 2004 23:52
Quote: "don't waste your time with this.It makes me feel quite angry when people like Lee Bamber does this kinf of thing.Its simply greed,nothing else."


this was about the EULA for both Freeware and Shareware.

Mr Underhill
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 00:04 Edited at: 17th Dec 2004 00:11
Quote: "(a) any software tool or software product which can (or might) be used in order to create further games or other software products;
(b) any software programming language or software development kit (“SDK”); and
(c) any software library, compilation or collection of graphics and / or sounds from which a particular graphic or sound may be extracted to be used independently of the software in which it was first incorporated;
in each case irrespective of whether or not the primary purpose of such software is to entertain its user."

This is what worries me. Does that mean we can't make DBP plugins with DSDK?
If so, I'm not even going to consider getting DSDK; I'll just stick to DBP.

Quote: "A kilobyte is 1024 bytes, not 1028.
I mean.... not.. that i.... new that already.... i figured... maybe... CRUD! IM A NERD! -Ion Stream"

I feel your pain, man. Wait...pain?!
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 00:16
Quote: "Does that mean we can't make DBP plugins with DSDK?"

Yes, at the moment.

Beware the cat... The alien... The heretic...
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 00:23
Does everyone understand that EVERYTHING is negotiable? Meaning, if you have an idea for a product AND it falls in the "grey area", just email the Product Department and they can let you know.

Don't go running to them "can I make a plugin, can I make a level editor, can I make...." go to them with a plan. A well thought out plan. Have a write up of what you want to do with it. Spend about 5 pages writing it up. THEN go to them.

Chances are, they will work with you.

-This...is my boomstick!
Mnemonix
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 00:26
Thats what I will do if what I want to release is questionable in the licence, its the best way to get a case by case judgement. Although I wouldnt want Rick or whomever to be recieveing thousands of documents like this each day

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Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 00:37
Which is why I stated the "write-up" than...

----------------------------------
Lee:

Quick question. I want to make a plug-in that does xxx and yyy for DBP. Can I use the DGSDK for it?

Thanks!
----------------------------------

That would be insane. Doesn't describe the plug-in, doesn't compensate TGC for anything, doesn't say if it will work with any of the other products, what version OS, etc.....

A write up is the best way for this to work. I believe once you put it to paper, review, add, modify, delete, you will have a great idea fleshed out on paper that they can review and tell you what kind of deal they are willing to make.

Case in point. When I was working with WildTangent, the licence was $5000. I created a write up, explained what I wanted to accomplished, created the product demo and whalla! The licence was waved.

Will this happen to you? No clue. You won't know unless you put it to paper and send it (aka you won't know till you ask nicely)

-This...is my boomstick!
Richard Davey
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 19:23
Quote: ""don't waste your time with this.It makes me feel quite angry when people like Lee Bamber does this kinf of thing.Its simply greed,nothing else.""


It does make me smile at how everyone assumes it is Lee who creates all that we do. This sort of post is the usual un-informed drivel that is associated with anything we create, written by a small idiotic minority.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
Stevil
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 20:38
Quote: "It does make me smile at how everyone assumes it is Lee who creates all that we do. This sort of post is the usual un-informed drivel that is associated with anything we create, written by a small idiotic minority."


I find this hard to believe Lee doesn't write EVERYTHING? I'm shocked an a little upset

Problem with this type of thing is people that mainly post comments are people that don't like a product an have to much time on their hands.
Mnemonix
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 22:26
People who do like it are too busy coding

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Van B
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 22:53
My own personal favourite:

Quote: "Take note that not only does this totally restrict what you can make to a shareware game only, they even limit the terms under which you can release it, specifying that it has to have a fixed time limit associated with it. Oh, and note that if you wanted to release both freeware and shareware games (or at least, things that fit into their incredibly narrow view of what that is), you'd have to buy both the freeware and shareware versions."


As if buying the more expensive shareware allowed version would mean you had to pay extra to give your games away! - what a tube. I hate when we get these pedantic geeks who would rather argue about EULA's (as if they really mean anything!) than what can be done with the SDK.

What would be awesome, is if TGC grabbed someone who could write some tutorials for it, like a monthly article in the newsletter with some homework - like maybe aimed at DBPro users who want to expand into C++. Using the SDK itself looks really straightforward and friendly, but actually learning C++ properly - bleh!.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
David T
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 22:53
Quite a bit of negativity there

I agree with a few of their concerns - but some of that is pure drivel

Get 15 new commands, all the date / time commands left out of DBPro for free!
DOWNLOAD PLUGINS HERE: http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/ and select "DarkBasic"
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 23:06
Trouble is learning C can take years...

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 23:22
Quote: "Problem with this type of thing is people that mainly post comments are people that don't like a product an have to much time on their hands."


I honestly don't believe it's anything to do with the product, I'll bet you none of them have done anything beyond look at who made it and then started on their "don't buy it, it's crap" crusade as mis-informed as usual. Made obvious by the incorrect assumptions (Lee wrote it, EULA issues, etc) spread through-out.

There are some people out there who tar all that we do with the same brush. It's just a shame we haven't been around long enough that they've died of old age yet.

Maybe in a few decades some of them will start popping off

Cheers,

Rich

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Erick G
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 23:58
There is a fixed time limit ?
Stevil
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 05:52
Quote: "There is a fixed time limit ? "


Yes, There is

Quote: "permitting the end-user to try the Game for a limited period of time free of charge, following which the end-user must either register and pay for the Game, or instead cease to use it;"


They don't specify the time frame of which you have to use though. I assume this is just to enforce the whole shareware idea, try an make sure people don't pass of shareware games as fullware.

Nobody really has to worry about this kind of thing yet anyways. If anyone has made anything purchase worthy in the couple of weeks its been out, I take my hat off to you. All in all I've only seen half a dozen products made in DB of any form make it to a purchase level so I'd just have fun with it (keeping in mind the whole tool agreement meaning you can't make a DBpro knock off). Code for the fun, not the money. I'm a full time programmer now and I tell you once it gets serious its no where near as fun
SoulMan
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 16:38
Wait a second. Where does that say that in the license? I don't see that at all in any of the licenses, even the freeware one which you cannot even sell the game. From what I have been reading on here, you cannot sell a game under freeware, under shareware you can only sell it over the internet and commericial when that is announced, you can sell it with anyone. There is nothing in the licenses about a time limit for a game and even if there were, that would defeat the purpose of shareware. I'm not sure if anyone here grew up with shareware but it goes something like this. You give someone a demo you created to try out the game, if they like that game they can purchase the full blown copy from you. That's all there is to shareware.
SoulMan

This is as backwards as is This
SoulMan
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 16:46
Ok wait, I just looked again and it is there. However, I believe the time limit to be between you and the end user. It is not up to TGC to decide how long someone should be allowed to play a demo of a game. With the Freeware license you can give away a full game and there is no time limit.
SoulMan

This is as backwards as is This
Dragonslayer
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 20:52
Van B

Quote: "What would be awesome, is if TGC grabbed someone who could write some tutorials for it, like a monthly article in the newsletter with some homework - like maybe aimed at DBPro users who want to expand into C++. Using the SDK itself looks really straightforward and friendly, but actually learning C++ properly - bleh!."


That is a great idea, unfortunatly I don't know enough C++ to do it. I have thought about starting from step one and going through it all and as I learn it post a tutorial on a website. I don't know if I could keep up with it but I think that if you learn, for example functions then turn around and write a tutorial on functions you will re-enforce in your own head what you just learned.

Also I'm interested in a program you had up that makes seamless textures but everytime I try a link to your website I get the page not found error, did you change your web address? I have tried a lot of links from here in the forums and they don't work!

Dragonslayer
Philip
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 19:05
I like the C++ / SDK newsletter section idea as well. However, as I STILL haven't managed to persuade Rich Davey to post pictures of his wedding in the newsletter (I mean, come on - we're interested!) I'm not sure how much chance we'll have of persuading him of the merits of this.

Wearing my legal cap, I had a look at the EULA. I didn't spot anything too objectionable about it.

Philip

What do you mean, bears aren't supposed to wear hats and a tie? P3.2ghz / 1 gig / GeForce FX 5900 128meg / WinXP home
Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 19:36
Quote: "People who do like it are too busy coding "


Too true. I'm sure that many of the better things made with DBPro we don't actually see, because the people who make them don't spend much of their time on this forum.

Isn't it? Wasn't it? Marvellous!
Galiem Vaelant
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Posted: 31st Dec 2004 12:07 Edited at: 31st Dec 2004 12:12
I hope I don't anger the mod gods by saying this, but why would you buy this anyway? Given the skills to use this, the DX SDK is free, with a completely open liscence... All you have to do to basically have the DBSDK is get up and write your own lighting, matrix, and model loading commands. Everything else comes with C++.

On top of that, what is probably the largest public help file/ codebase ever constructed exists for the DX SDK on Microsoft's website.

What does DBPro offer with this that you couldn't either drum up yourself in a matter of a couple months or go out and purchase cheaper with a better liscence?

Couple this with the fact that there are programs to port DBPro code to C++, and you really have a pointless purchase.

For me, the liscense totally kills it. Freeware only, shareware only, or purchase both? Wha? Why would I bother? If I'm an amateur game developer, there are literally thousands of better options, DBPro being one of them. If I'm a professional game developer, I don't need DBSDK, especially if I can't use it to make money.

Just my two cents, but it seems like a totally pointless purchase to me. If they want to move this product the way a DBPro SDK deserves to move, they need to let up on the liscence restrictions a little and come off some source.

I predict that this will sell for about a year, with declining sales all along the way, and then it will go away for the most part. They can't give up source or liscencing, or they screw themselves with DBPro and DBClassic. I mean, if they did what it would take for this to sell well, what would stop someone from making their own version of DBPro?

My best suggestion for them is that they start offering lease-based liscencing, where the developer pays X ammount for X time in development with this, and then they get royalties for the end product. That's the way most of the big boys work, so far as graphics engines go anyway, isn't it?

Edit:

Here's one gem from that linked thread that is the only, and I mean only, good selling point this thing has:

Quote: "I think this would be a really useful tool for people coming from a dbpro background to get into c++."


That is true. DBSDK would make a great bridge for a learning developer between DBPro and C++.

You have a memory like trying to catch water in a steel trap. - A friend
Erick G
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Posted: 31st Dec 2004 14:19
Collision Detection
Model Loading
Value Interpolation
Image Processing
BSP Loading
Windows Management

the list goes on

Yes you can write this yourself. If you really want to. Also if you know engine design.
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 31st Dec 2004 19:59
Quote: "Given the skills to use this, the DX SDK is free, with a completely open liscence..."

Easier to use to than DirectX.

Quote: "What does DBPro offer with this that you couldn't either drum up yourself in a matter of a couple months or go out and purchase cheaper with a better liscence?"

Everything that it would take ages to do yourself - 2D collision, 3D collision

Quote: "Freeware only, shareware only, or purchase both?"

Eh ?

Beware the Christmas... The fattener... The drunkard...
Emperor Baal
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Posted: 31st Dec 2004 20:51
Lol, check out this:

Quote: "
And here I prove my point:
From the darkbasic website I have found a screenshot of "The best DarkBASIC game ever? Quite possibly!"



I have NEVER seen a screenshot posted by an indie developer here on gamedev that was THAT bad,
and that is on the actual darkBASIC website. I would be afraid to post a screenshot with such awful textures,
obvious lack of any shaders, horrible models (esp. trees), and ~5 foot clip distance.

EDIT: I just finished downloading the BEST LOOKING FPS game I found on their website (called Grunt).
It was a 7 Mb Doom 1/2 clone consisting of one room yet it ran at 33 FPS on my 3.4 Ghz comp with
a Radeon 9800 pro card. If you are going to spend the $80 dollars to buy that ridiculous SDK I reccomend
you instead just mail me the $80 to support a real hobbyist game developer. The only reason it looked
decent was because they had a good texture designer.
"


I wonder if this site will be updated The TGC showcase is very very bad.

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 31st Dec 2004 21:01 Edited at: 31st Dec 2004 21:05
And did you see the reply to that ? Some people seem to think that if the graphics not as good as UT2003 then its something awful...

And I wonder if that idiot read the readme ?

Beware the Christmas... The fattener... The drunkard...
Mnemonix
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Posted: 31st Dec 2004 21:52
And obviously to qualify as a game, it MUST have shaders or its rubbish .

Seriously, shaders in games are like special effects in movies, OVERUSED and are used simply for the sake of it.

The quality of most games depends more on the developer than the language/sdk/whaterver that is used, and no amount of crap from your mouth is likely to change this.

The 3d chat is coming...
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 1st Jan 2005 00:45
Most of the people unfortunately base their opinions on heresay. Worse, some base it on the initial release of DBPro.

Beware the Christmas... The fattener... The drunkard...
MikeS
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Posted: 1st Jan 2005 03:40
Heh, I think that screenshot was from classic, roughly, what? 4 or 5 years ago?

Quote: "That is true. DBSDK would make a great bridge for a learning developer between DBPro and C++."

An excellent quote. Anyone who wants to learn C++, and focus on the language while making games should take a look into DBSDK.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly known as Yellow)
Azh321
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Posted: 1st Jan 2005 07:10
I have knowledge of OpenGL and Allegro, and some SDL(which is what im getting into at the moment). I was curious if this would be better than SDL, I highly doubt it, and SDL IS free....but I dont know why but this SDK is just lureing me in...maybe its because it looks all easy and some what pretty in a freaky perspective...
Money is not a problem but im thinking I will just go with SDL, its already well-established and free, good documentations, ect ect

Hallo Weibchen
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As its seems SDL is rather limited (no sprites etc), it would probably work well with DarkSDK

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billy the kid
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Posted: 1st Jan 2005 07:34
Whats SDL?
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A rather limited graphics system.

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Rpg Cyco
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Posted: 1st Jan 2005 08:23 Edited at: 1st Jan 2005 08:29
It seems to be a bit more then a graphics system. Taken from: http://www.libsdl.org/.

Quote: "Simple DirectMedia Layer is a cross-platform multimedia library designed to provide low level access to audio, keyboard, mouse, joystick, 3D hardware via OpenGL, and 2D video framebuffer."


I didn't notice that was you there for a while TCA, with that new name of yours.

- Rpg Cyco

Azh321
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Posted: 1st Jan 2005 08:32
Meta: That guy is a moderator?
Meta: Shoot him.

I dont know how your a mod...maybe cuz your good at it I dunno, but must not be a very good programmer...I mean, SDL is for real programmers, ok? Its not for 9 year olds who have to have everything made for them, it is soooo easy to set up a sprite/tile system, so easy. You see, SDL doesnt limit you like DB does, nor does it spoon feed you. You must not know much about SDL, so please, dont act like you do, or say anything about it. Heck, dont even post about it.
PS for something thats free, and beats DBP (this is not a flame against DBP, its not bad for starters or just to have fun) I think its pretty good, and obviously a lot of other people.

Hallo Weibchen
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Posted: 1st Jan 2005 08:58 Edited at: 1st Jan 2005 09:02
Quote: "You see, SDL doesnt limit you like DB does"

Examine the name : Simple DirectMedia Layer. Note the word Simple : It doesn't provide you with everything. Lack of 3D for example. So you have to use another library.

Quote: "but must not be a very good programmer"

*cough*See some of my demos at the other site*cough*
*splutter*See my C64 games*splutter*
*burp*See my RISC OS game*burp*
*sneeze*Try and find the Amiga version of Walker or the RISC OS LinkList module*sneeze*
*quack*lets see something of yours*quack*

Quote: "I didn't notice that was you there for a while TCA, with that new name of yours"

Yes - new name for a new year.

Visit http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~nickk/
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Azh321
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Posted: 1st Jan 2005 09:01
Its for 2d stuff...thats like saying, darn I cant go straight up in airplane...you have 2d api's for 2d things, you have 3d api's for 3d stuff and usually 2d (since it is east if you already have 3d, since there all the same thing if you think about it, just represented differetly) but that doesnt mean the 2d stuff would be good *COUGH*DBP*COUGH*

Hallo Weibchen
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Posted: 1st Jan 2005 09:03 Edited at: 1st Jan 2005 09:12
Why have multiple libraries for sounds, 2D graphics, 3D graphics, multimedia when one will do ?

Any chance of making your previous post something more understandable ? Are you agreeing with me or not ? Are you saying that 2D can emulate 3D graphics ? Or are you saying everything in SDL points east ? Or that you have a bad cough ?

Visit http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~nickk/
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Galiem Vaelant
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Posted: 1st Jan 2005 16:08 Edited at: 1st Jan 2005 16:26
I still say DBSDK doesn't look very attractive, but that's just me and my situation. I'm sure there are those out there who it would be perfect for, especially DBPro users looking to move into the big boys' world of things with a guided tour instead of a sudden leap (which is better than most have when they start out learning).

DBSDK has one thing, as well, that no other library or engine out there that is a complete development package can boast -- a small (relatively), close knit, long established community of loyal users.

Try going to any site where C++ coders gather to ask a simple question on how to do something. After they make you feel about two inches tall for not being an instant expert, they'll tell you the names of books to buy instead of simply addressing the question.

This is the only -- and I mean the ONLY -- community for programmers at any level I have seen anywhere that you can ask a question in, and *GASP* have it answered in a polite, very helpful manner.

Programmers who begin elsewhere all have the same story... They either went to school, and then adapted a general programming knowledge for game design, or they wasted a quarter of their lives by figuring out cryptic languages through trial and error, as opposed to studying on their own and asking questions when stuck. There is -nothing- wrong with asking for help when you're new to something, and are stuck. As a matter of fact, programming is the -ONLY- profession in which newcomers are regularly scolded for doing what newcomers do.

This is why I'm still a member of the DBPro community. This is why I'll still be coming back here in three more years when I have a dual degree in math and physics, and have moved on to much bigger, proportionally better tools. This is what makes the DBSDK's best selling point.

Imagine a community like this for C++. Anyone interested in coding could learn enough about it to know whether they'd go insane doing it for a living BEFORE they have spent so much time and money that they're locked in.

To be honest, it's about danged time someone took up the reigns with providing a path to knowledge through independant exploration with the support of a community, from the normal no knowledge start, to the dawn of mastery. This is how all long standing traditional professions have survived the ages, and moreso, how they have improved. Were it not for this concept, we wouldn't even have computers to make hostile environment C++ forums on.

I do still think, however, that the learning beginner is the best target demographic for DBPSDK, and that targetting other demographics will be a proposition met with much criticism (and very little of it will be nice, if what I have seen of most development communities holds true in this case). Even if the target demographic were restricted to beginers only, there will still be some hostility from elitists who don't like the idea of just anybody gaining the ability to learn without enduring the traditional masochistic trials most have gone through.

Of course, I would love to be proven wrong here For me, my opinion is a win/ win situation. If I'm right, then hey, I called it at the begining. If it were a football game, I could have won money. If I'm wrong, though, I'd be much happier.

I would like to point out, as well, that with a good background in programming and an extensive knowledge of mathematics, it would not take a lifetime to make your own libraries. Ten years ago I lived next door to a 15 year old who produced entire 3D rendering and game engines monthly for an advertising outfit, and he made more money at 15 than his parents did in their 40's.

People need to get this fallacy that difficult things are either impossible or take a lifetime out of their heads. I work closely with a double doctorate, Nobel laureate who put this fact into words very well, and very simply, "Anybody can be Einstein. It takes only motivation and tools."

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edit number 100,237,782,129: I am a compulsive post editor. In writing anything, perfection in expressing a viewpoint lies in the process of revision.

You have a memory like trying to catch water in a steel trap. - A friend
Class I Coder
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2005 01:01
Quote: ""Anybody can be Einstein. It takes only motivation and tools.""


The frightening thing about intelligent people is that they think that everybody is as capable as themselves - they are not. I'm a mature student doing a degree course. There are people on the course who're academically capable, and those there to help the faculty pay for itself - they stand little hope of achieving a degree.

Quote: "this fallacy that difficult things are either impossible or take a lifetime out of their heads"


If these things are so easy, why do people respect a Ph.D? Why doesn't everyone have a degree or three? Simple: the average person is not capable. It isn't politically correct to say it, but it's true.

This is possibly why DarkBasic is so good - it takes a large subject, simplifies it and so allows us mere mortals the ability to do what we want.
Galiem Vaelant
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2005 03:21 Edited at: 2nd Jan 2005 03:21
I like to believe that everyone not limitted by a condition or extenuating circumstances is capable, but you may be right. That's a hard thing to argue, because you can't really prove it either way... Does someone who believes that they're "not good with math" simply lack the motivation and confidence to learn, or are they really incapable? Is the old belief that people are either left or right brained true?

I actually just wrote a research paper not too long ago for an argumentative writing class on the subject of human genetic potential. It was fairly surprising to learn that not only can nobody prove the topic either way, but also that psychologists can't even come up with a scientifically acceptable definition for intelligence.

I'm a stark pessimist who burns himself out far too often working most likely harder than I should be at this point, but I like optimism when it comes to this topic due to personal experiences. I was one of those people who believed math was beyond reach until one day *poof* I just started understanding, just like that.

I'd like to think that people respect a PhD because it requires so much work to get one.

Of course, this is not all to say that a proper path to knowledge is not required, and even that in some cases the path must be lined with signs to remind folks of what direction they're facing.

Still, the biggest threat to one's intellectual and creative achievement that I generally see is a lack of a willingness to try due to a lack of confidence.

You have a memory like trying to catch water in a steel trap. - A friend
billy the kid
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2005 03:32
Well its true you have to have some amount of intelligence to get a PhD, however PhD's are not geniuses. Really if you do decent at a good university for your bachelors, then you can get a PhD if you are willing to work at it. I know plenty of very smart PhDs and plenty of not so smart comparatively. So one shouldnt take that much stock in a PhD, though still quite an accomplishment.

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