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Dark GDK / Good legal question.

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Little Freak
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 12:42
What if I use DGSDK in one part of my program but in the same program that wouldnt fit in to the legal contract , but doesnt use any db command. for example. I make a level designer using my own code to make the level and save the file but use DGSDK to render a 3d image of your map as you build it.
Stevil
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 13:43
Are you going to be selling it? if not don't worry. If by chance you are you'll need to upgrade your license so that you can. If you only have a freeware one DBS will be hunting you down with sharp sticks being carried by high price lawyers.
SoulMan
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 13:46
As per license that wouldn't work. You are still using the DarkSDK to render with. Since the program is an application using DarkSDK to render to, that can be technically called a game creation tool which is prohibited by the license.
SoulMan

This is as backwards as is This
SoulMan
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 13:47
@Stevil
Actually both licenses prohibit it.
SoulMan

This is as backwards as is This
Stevil
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 14:07
Quote: "@Stevil
Actually both licenses prohibit it.
SoulMan"


I thought you could sell shareware games on the condition you added it was created with or uses part of DGSDK an add in their copyright information? I'll have to read up on it when I get home I guess
Kevin Picone
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 20:52
Games yes, editors/tools apparently not..

Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
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Steve O
AGK Bronze Backer
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 07:38 Edited at: 18th Dec 2004 07:38
the EULA says you can't make a level-editor with DGSDK, so i guess you can write a level-editor that doesnt use the DGSDK, and then make a game that does use the DGSDK that just reads the files you've created with your level-editor.

Stevil
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 09:06
you can make a level editor on the condition you don't sell it and/or package it with games. I looked into it an the main thing they are trying to do there is prevent people making a new DBpro or gamecreator. This is fair enough me thinks.
Steve O
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 09:45
yes but what if you do wanna package it with your game? then i guess it's ok when the level-editor isnt written using the DGSDK, right?

1tg46
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 10:26
I do not think that you can make a separate file that can be used by the your program, because the EULA doesn't allow it. But I would think that it should be okay if you implement the level editor in your program, so that you have one large exe file with the game and the level editor. If that is confusing then how about this:

You write the program, then withing the same code you write a level editor for the program and compile the whole program. You would then have a game with a built in level editor.

But I could be wrong, ask Rich,

Regards,
1tg46


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Stevil
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 12:03
like I was saying they just don't want you to make a gamecreator, they use the terminology to cover their arses. I think a level editor for your own game built in is fine aslong as its just for your game and not a tool to make more games.

Also it only applies when you are selling a game. If you are then you'd probably get the comerical license which isn't even out yet.

I wouldn't worry about this side of things till you are ready to sell.
re faze
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 13:34
if these guys so hot then why are they so worried about someone making a new dbpro
also - if we find a bug in the libs can we alter the lib or is that illegal?
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 18:04
Quote: " if we find a bug in the libs can we alter the lib or is that illegal?"

Yes it is illegal as you dont have the source code.

Beware the cat... The alien... The heretic...
Don Malone
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 02:32 Edited at: 19th Dec 2004 02:35
The EULA needs to be edited to reflect that a Level Editor for use with a user created game is acceptable as long as the editor is not seperated from the game release, and that no stand alone editor or game creation software is permitted.

That would make this easier for everyone involved.

There have been posts to reflect that that is an acceptable use of the software but that it conflicts with the EULA or just causes confusion means that someone must make an amendment or a change to the EULA in relation to in game level editors.

Just my two cents worth.

Wasting CPU Cycles since the 286 was a hot machine.
Gen
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 03:39
Ok,

Quote: "But I would think that it should be okay if you implement the level editor in your program"


This is what I was thinking. Has anyone played Cossacks or Age of Empires? They both have built in editors and this is ok, RIGHT?

Now what about Rainbow Six 3 Raven Shield, it has an external editor, but it is just for that game, is this OK?

Gen

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billy the kid
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 03:44
I think one of the Mods should post a sticky at the top of this forum further explaining the EULA and everything you can and cannot do with it. It would save a lot of questions I think.
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 04:55
I still cannot believe that this thread is still going on.....

-This...is my boomstick!
Ilya
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 05:01 Edited at: 19th Dec 2004 05:02
The EULA said you can only destribute games.
A game is something someone plays only for entertainment as the EULA sais. I don't know about the only part.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
Freddix
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 07:25 Edited at: 19th Dec 2004 07:26
if you want to sell game development package builded with DGSDK, you must contact Rick Vanner to have details about the commercial licenses and, there will be some conditions to accept ... It's an agreement with TGC and YOU to sell your software ... but prepare yourself for a "hit" because ... even with the TGC requests ... it's far to be "low price" ... so, it's interesting only of you are sure at 200% that your software will allow you gain much money !

Stevil
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 20:17
People are more concerned with the fine print on freeware/shareware at the moment. I'll try an make it nice an easy here:-

Freeware:-
Can't make profit off it, distribute freely an include the noted legal terms stipulated in the EULA.

Shareware:-
May sell products (doesn't have to be online, can sell shareware at a corner store if you really like). Software must only be a trial with limitations and only work for a certain time period before they have to purchase the "full product".

General Rule(s):-
* Products can not be an alternate to DB, DBpro, Game Creator or any other product created by DBS.
* You can create pretty well anything you like aslong as its not available to the public. The EULA is only for software which goes public.
* You can't alter DGSDK in any way shape or form. Its still their property but you brought the rights to use it.
* I ASSUME you can include editors for your OWN games, but not a general game editor (Basically anything aslong as people can't make their own games).
* A "Comercial" license is yet to be mentioned. If you think you're going to need one any time soon please smack you're head against the nearest solid object an re-think how long a decent project should take.

I'm not the master of this by any means to be honest I only read the thing once or twice but this is how I understand it all works. Hope it helps.
Mnemonix
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Posted: 20th Dec 2004 02:02
People are taking the licence too literally. It basically means "do not create a program that rivals a TGC package".

At least thats what it looks like to me, and fair enough.

The 3d chat is coming...
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Freddix
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Posted: 20th Dec 2004 03:55 Edited at: 20th Dec 2004 03:56
@Stevil :
Quote: "doesn't have to be online, can sell shareware at a corner store if you really like"

Wrong. Ask Rick and you'll understand that shareware mean ONLY ONLINE VERSION !!! You are not allowed to sell on cd-rom because it's COMMERCIAL LICENSE that is needed for that !
Quote: "Products can not be an alternate to DB, DBpro, Game Creator or any other product created by DBS.
"

Not 100% exact : EULA mention NO SOFTWARE ! Only GAMES !
You can't create a music development software, nor a graphic painting software nor other softwares ! ONLY GAMES !

@Mnemonix :
Quote: ""do not create a program that rivals a TGC package"."

yes I think it's something really wrong in the DarkGameDK's EULA .. It's like if MICROSOFT forbid anyone to create an alternative to INTERNET EXPLORER, OUTLOOK, PUBLISHER, etc ... using their Visual Basic or Visual C++ packages !!!
Imagine how restrictive it can be ?

Stevil
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Posted: 20th Dec 2004 06:17 Edited at: 20th Dec 2004 06:33
Quote: "Wrong. Ask Rick and you'll understand that shareware mean ONLY ONLINE VERSION !!! You are not allowed to sell on cd-rom because it's COMMERCIAL LICENSE that is needed for that !"


I don't think this is true. Whats the difference between selling online an offline, its the EXACT same product just on different media. Its like beer in a bottle or beer in a can, same product different container (Can't you tell I'm aussie?).

Shareware is software which can be "shared" and as I said

Quote: " Software must only be a trial with limitations and only work for a certain time period before they have to purchase the "full product"."


Aslong as you follow that rule its my understanding its shareware. Also searching the EULA I don't believe the word "online" is used once.

90% of my shareware software I have now was purchased on CD/Disk. Tell me now who still doesn't have the old shareware disk version of doom and commander keen they got from the $2 shop?

Rules could have changed since I was in the game, if thats the case I think new rules are silly.

Quote: "Not 100% exact : EULA mention NO SOFTWARE ! Only GAMES !
You can't create a music development software, nor a graphic painting software nor other softwares ! ONLY GAMES !"


Yes, sorry I forgot to mention that part. This is very true.

Also a friend from work believes you should change "NO SOFTWARE" to "NO APPLICATIONS" since a game is technically "software". But he is obviously fussy
Freddix
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Posted: 20th Dec 2004 06:31 Edited at: 20th Dec 2004 06:34
@Stevil, I've contacted Rick Vanner about commercial license so, if I say that, it's because it's true !!! IT IS WHAT HE TELLED ME !!!
Except if TGC pay for themselves the luxury to give different contract depending on who contact them !
DARK SDK SHAREWARE LICENSE IS FOR ONLINE ONLY !
you need COMMERCIAL LICENSE for CDROM softwares !

if you are logic, shareware are always online ( you load the trial and then buy the full online software ... ) the commercial products are always on cdrom ( or online+cdrom ) so, commercial can be online or on cdrom and shareware is always online !

Stevil
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Posted: 20th Dec 2004 06:44
the EULA doesn't mention online or offline for shareware, only says game limitations an time frames. How you distribute it is not mentioned. If its not mentioned you can sell it how you like aslong as you follow the rules they set.
Stevil
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Posted: 20th Dec 2004 06:49
Quote: "Shareware (Try before you buy) is a marketing method, not a type of software. Unlike software marketed through normal retail channels, where you are forced to pay for the product before you've even seen it, the shareware marketing method lets you try program for a period of time before you buy it. Since you've tried a shareware program, you know whether it will meet your needs before you pay for it. Shareware programs are just like programs you find in major stores, catalogs, and other places where people purchase software, except you get to use them, on your own computer, before paying for them. What if I like a shareware program?You pay for it at the end of a trial period (typically 30 days) by sending the author a fee he or she has established for the program. "


Quote: "Copyright-protected software that is distributed on the condition that if a user wishes to keep the program beyond the trial period, they will send payment to the author.
www.tki.org.nz/e/tki/help/glossary.php"


There are a couple of definitions which say are "generally downloaded" not HAS to be downloaded.

These are the definitions of shareware from when I was a kid, and I'm only 21 so I don't think its changed to much since then.
Freddix
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Posted: 20th Dec 2004 06:53 Edited at: 20th Dec 2004 06:55
ok .
so send an e-mail to Rick vanner and you'll see what I say !

if he say something different, then post it here and I'll post the details he gave me.

if you look carefully your quotes .. shareware is applied to internet .. you try then you buy ... commercial is different .. you buy and then try nothing say that it is on cdrom ... and, the principle is that you call a COMMERCIAL company to send your software ... so it's a COMMERCIAL PRODUCT !

Stevil
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Posted: 20th Dec 2004 07:06
Don't wanna bother Rick with little things like this, but I found something in the EULA which supports what I say

Quote: "(c) >>the packaging<< and media containing any such Shareware Game and any marketing or promotional text referring to such Shareware Game shall each include the following legend: "


How much packaging do you get when you download something? If you search the word "online" isn't used once regarding anything yet it mentions packaging. This is enough to be able to sell offline, unless they change the EULA shareware can be on any media

Quote: "you look carefully your quotes .. shareware is applied to internet .. you try then you buy ... commercial is different .. you buy and then try"


Please read them again and tell me how this doesn't apply for CD or disk? an expain to me all my shareware CDs an disks I have here

Anyways, its all a matter of opinion so I'll leave it at this before people start stressing
indi
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Posted: 20th Dec 2004 10:03
shareware is not an only online distribution point.

magazines have shareware cdroms bundled with them, commercial packages sometimes also bundle shareware applications in extra folders.

in regards to DBP's product I havent read the EULA so i dont know. for standard shareware tho that comment above is very false.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself
Freddix
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Posted: 20th Dec 2004 20:11 Edited at: 20th Dec 2004 20:22
I asked Rick Vanner about the fact I want to use Dark Game SDK for GAME.EXE in X-Quad Editor and, with the fact that a french publisher is interested in ( maybe ) diffuse my software on CD-Rom in shops, Rick Telled me that I need the COMMERCIAL LICENSE for SOFTWARES DISTRIBUTION, Even is X4 is compiled with DBPRO and GAME.EXE with DGSDK !

So, IF I TELL THAT YOU NEED COMMERCIAL LICENSE FOR CD-ROM SUPPORT, IT'S BECAUSE RICK VANNER TELLED ME THAT IT IS NEEDED !

I hate peoples that apologize about something without asking the good person for the choice he make for the licenses ! ASk Rick and you'll see ! maybe shareware isn't limited to online but TGC Do that !

indi
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Posted: 20th Dec 2004 20:37
lol first of all a shareware licence is something completely different to the licence that your aquiring from DBP TGC.

Second getting all "capslocky" only makes u look frustrated and cranky, as well as foolish.

While Rick is a nice guy he hardly started or created the shareware phenonemom, what your doing is buying commercial software package with licence and usage restrictions. forget the terms you think you know or are abusing very badly without thought.

Ask any old fogie like myself about hate and love on the internet, it just means your zealous but mistaken. Its your cup of tea dont spill it on your lap.

At the end of the day you will need a commercial licence not a shareware one, LMAO! sorry but get cranky at the bigger picture instead of silly stuff.

If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself
Stevil
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Posted: 20th Dec 2004 20:48
Quote: "So, IF I TELL THAT YOU NEED COMMERCIAL LICENSE FOR CD-ROM SUPPORT, IT'S BECAUSE RICK VANNER TELLED ME THAT IT IS NEEDED !"


I CAN TYPE IN CAPS TOO it won't get me anywher though. I'll tell you what, I'll follow the EULA which is the legal contract I agreed to and you can go off the verbal/lesser agreement you worked out with Rick.

Quote: "with the fact that a french publisher is interested in ( maybe ) diffuse my software on CD-Rom in shops"


I'm impressed you got people interested in maybe purchasing software written in a SDK which was only just brought out and from what I can tell a few updates off being finished. For this I take my hat off to you. But by the way you say that it is comercial not shareware

Quote: "I hate peoples that apologize about something without asking the good person for the choice he make for the licenses ! ASk Rick and you'll see ! maybe shareware isn't limited to online but TGC Do that !"


Maybe Rick just doesn't like you
Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 20th Dec 2004 22:55
Wow! I have never seem a person get that upset about an EULA before.

I could be going out on a limb here, but if the EULA is restricting you from what you are trying to create, then, and as I mentioned I could be going out on a limb here but.....

Don't buy it.

-This...is my boomstick!
SoulMan
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 02:33
I figured that if you sold it only online you could ship via CD. The EULA doesn't mention specifics about the medium to transfer it on. However, this doesn't bother me much and will work out to what I want to do anyhow. I'll avoid having to deal with a publisher and will work on my terms as far as electronic distribution goes. Besides, why not do it electronically anyways. It will be much cheaper. If you sell enough games online you should be able to pay for the required bandwidth. Also, I don't understand why someone here was getting so hot and bothered by it. Why should it be your concern if someone gets in trouble over it. If you aren't the person doing it, you should have nothing to worry about. I thought of you as a much respected member of this community but the posts above really make me think you're nothing but a big child.
SoulMan

This is as backwards as is This
Freddix
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 03:09
@Soulman :
you know, if you create an assisted game development package for beginners, their age will be something like 13~17 years old.
And for these, the parents generally dislike buying a software over the net. they prefer to buy it in a shop.
[ I build a market study ( sorry I'm not sure for the exact term in english ) and it reveal that to me ]
And more, I don't blame the EULA here .. I just tell what I've heard from TGC big boss ! now ... people says "it's wrong" and they insist that way !!! I hate people that continue telling something when I get the opposite answer from the big boss ! that's why I use CAPS TO TALK [ because sometimes, you need to shout loud to make people understand things ]
That's why a CD release should be interesting because, you must cover all the potential buyers to win more

For myself, I have some potential agreements with TGC about the use of DGSDK for my projects but, I'll not tell them here because it's not the reason of that post.

I just wanted to give my Informations I get from TGC but nobody believe me ... more , they say I'm wrong but, I get directly the informations from Rick Vanner . So , logically . Who's really wrong ?
with these you always think I'm a child ?

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 03:26
It would be a good idea if Rick detailed exactly what is and isn't allowed with the EULA - so that noone can argue about it.

Beware the cat... The alien... The heretic...
IBOL
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 04:20
solution:
1. sell your game without level editor
2. provide a download of the level editor for *free*.
even people who don't buy your game could download your free editor,
they just wouldn't be able to use it for anything.

Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 04:32
I don't beleive Rick could mention "exactly". There are endless number of possibilities, and I do mean endless.

Let us just take a level editor for an example:
2D or 3D?
Export .MAP, .X?
Export at all?
Export positions of objects?
Works with other games?
Read heighmaps?
Used to 2nd version of game?
Used to make MODS?
Can Sell?
Free?

I can go on and on all day on the level editor, and I don't think it is fair for Rick to have to spell out:

"Must me 3D, cannot export to .MAP, can me used to create MOD only for game provided, cannot include sound....."

Too many issues....

-This...is my boomstick!
1tg46
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 04:34
Sorry to get off topic, but Cellbloc could you take a look at DBN, click the sig. I have an update if you are interested.


Click the sig
SoulMan
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 05:44
@Freddix
It's the way you were typing. I understand that you want to get a point across and that is fine. That's not being a big child. When you use caps to repeat a message that's being child like. If they don't get your point the first time, just ignore them. They are probably not worth your time to talk to. I got your message loud and clear the first time. Plus I have been reading all the posts here unlike some people. So you and I both understand what is going on and how the Eula has been setup. I don't get angry at people who don't understand though. And I hope you don't ether. But posting all in caps sounds like you do.
SoulMan

This is as backwards as is This
Freddix
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 16:38
@TCA : Yes, I agree with you but apparently, Rick hasn't defined a definitive choice for commercial license. He gives me details on what he expect to do.

@Soulman : I agree with your last message ... the problem is that TGC doesn't tell all and some words received per mails does not correspond to the EULA so, it's why I agree with TCA to the fact that TGC should clarify all about DGSDK licenses ... For example, IT may be possible to sell a software build with DGSDK under some restrictions [ For example, sell it on TGC website ] and this thing does not correspond to EULA.... but I will not give more details .... I hope Rick will do this soonly

Stevil
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 17:12
Maybe someone should bring this to the attention of Rick or someone. As things stand people are saying that they have been told something different to the EULA.

Example the CD thing, it clearly states about packaging (4c) in the shareware license and the word "online" is not mentioned ONCE at ALL in the entire document yet Freddix claims he was told it HAS to be online and download able.

If that IS the case its not covered in the EULA what so ever (plus the whole package thing is a bit of a put off) I don't think anyone would be ready any time soon for a offical realese of a shareware product any who. But I say if you WANT to sell on CD and they don't change the EULA then go for it, its the contract you agreed to. Just make sure you do follow all the terms they HAVE put there.

I hope this doesn't cause any angre or caps lock, this will be my last post on the matter unless someone asks me a question

You Must First Realise Your Limitations Before You Set Your Goals
Mnemonix
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2004 02:05
Make sure to come into the IRC at 9pm GMT on Thursday when Rick will be there to answer these kinds of questions.

Im sure it will clear a lot up.

The 3d chat is coming...
Rights For Traffic Cones!
Gen
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2004 04:25
This does need to be clarified, becouse the only thing that keeps me from getting Dark SDK is being unsure if I can have and editor biult into a game to make maps, and levels for that game.

Soon to come...
Dark IDE, New IDE for DarkBASIC Pro!
Two plug-ins, A Time/Date and New File commands.
Freddix
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2004 04:42
erf ! I will probably not be here cos I must leave tomorrow to spend christmas with family

I'll be back on 27th december ....

OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2004 04:53
No doubt someone will transcribe for you.

Beware the cat... The alien... The heretic...
billy the kid
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Posted: 22nd Dec 2004 13:03
Quote: "Posted by TCA:
It would be a good idea if Rick detailed exactly what is and isn't allowed with the EULA - so that noone can argue about it."


IDEA STEALER!!!

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