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3 Dimensional Chat / [LOCKED] Why is texturing so hard?

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MiR
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 02:57
I don´t get it. Designers are suposed to be artists. So why do they have to worry about "UV mapping" and all that. It just doesn´t make sense that an artists tool is much more complex than a programmers tool. I mean compare VS.NET to Maya. Which one would you find easier to learn?
Why hasn´t some kick ass coder helped come up with a a 3d paint where you just import your model, paint it using dots and export it with a texture and map made by the pc?


A bargain at 640000€
Libera tu mente y te liberaras.
game Spacer
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 03:01
Have you tried Tattoo?
http://www.terabit.nildram.co.uk/tattoo/
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 03:17
Quote: "I don´t get it. Designers are suposed to be artists. So why do they have to worry about "UV mapping" and all that. It just doesn´t make sense that an artists tool is much more complex than a programmers tool. I mean compare VS.NET to Maya. Which one would you find easier to learn?"


I found Maya alot easier to learn and understand.
Infact Maya's UV Mapping is possibly some of the easiest you'll find in the industry.

Grab your surface > Plane / AutoBest Map > Adjust UV Points Independantly of your selections... Stitch to combine them on the UV Map, Snap to put them in the same spot, Cut to defuse the UV points. You can select UV points in any view or the Texture Editor.

Really I don't know what your talking about. I learnt Maya's main features in under 2years... I've been learning Visual C++ for 2years now and I'm still totally clueless to what hardly anything does, let alone understanding the language to a level where I feel confident with it.

To be quite frank, if either of them were easy; everyone would have the skills to do it professionally. Fact it is it either takes years of practise or you'll naturally pick it up easily.
That's the same with every dissernable skill you learn... just another fact of being human


Vai mamar na pila
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 03:26
Quote: "Why is texturing so hard?"


why is life unfair ??? because it is.
Van B
Moderator
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 03:34
UV mapping is a nightmare, so is texturing. For me it's all the fidly bits, like trying to find squashed polygons or even just figuring out what goes where.

I'm working on a modelling package that has and will have some really cool UV stuff. Firstly the UV and texture are displayed in a viewport alongside the other views, selecting vertices in another view selects them in all views, including the UV map. This makes it so much easier to find your way around the model. I plan to look into as many different unwrapping types as I can, but mainly quick solutions, like analysing the mesh and splitting the UV map up into patches that are a uniform scale - which is a good way into more professional looking results (UV stretching is too damn easy).


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
MiR
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 05:50
game Spacer: No but I am now Unfortunatly it doesn´t seam to do the hard part. That´s set up the UV map thing. Though I think it will be very useful. My bro will be able to UV map it in Maya( hopefully at some point in the future), texture it in tatoo and import it back again for animating. Thanks for the link.

Raven: Realy artists shouldn´t have to do that c**p. I know I talk about paint too much but it´s a great example in this case. If you compare two pieces of work made with paint the better one is always (or nearly always) the one created by the better artist but with 3d the better one is normaly from the guy he has more practise with the program . This shouldn´t be. They shouldn´t have to worry about numbers and alinments. They should just let thier imaginations go.

VanB: That program sounds like just what the doctor ordered. I hope it goes well!


A bargain at 640000€
Libera tu mente y te liberaras.
Gir
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 06:27 Edited at: 21st Dec 2004 06:29
I have to agree with Raven on this one, although i use 3dsMax I find modelling and textureing a lot easier than programming.

I think all these tools have ways to make your life easy, youve just got to know where they are and how to use them as intended.

I used to find UV mapping hard, I dont anymore, Im also getting a lot better at making textures from nothing. It just takes practice and some pointers in the right direction

Pete

Edit: And I would stay away from paint! Photoshop is your friend

I'm makin' a cake...
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 07:32
Quote: "Raven: Realy artists shouldn´t have to do that c**p. I know I talk about paint too much but it´s a great example in this case. If you compare two pieces of work made with paint the better one is always (or nearly always) the one created by the better artist but with 3d the better one is normaly from the guy he has more practise with the program . This shouldn´t be. They shouldn´t have to worry about numbers and alinments. They should just let thier imaginations go."


What the hell are you talking about? You can't automate Skinning a Mesh, it's impossible.. sometimes you need a model with a single texture sometimes you need many. Sometimes you need a Front unwrap of the front and sides for something like a head, but for a body you would want to have each section seperated.

Skinning all part of 3D Artwork, it is part of the skill. If you don't like doing it, then I'm sorry your doing something you don't like... but this is part'n'parcel of doing 3D work.

It's like saying you want to paint a picture of a flower, but you want the canvas to come with the outline of the picture before you start. Sorry but it just doesn't work like that, if that's how you want it, there are 'paint-by-numbers' programs out there; but then you won't get professional results, because your carbon copying someone else.


BenDstraw
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 09:14
Even though I agree that programming is harder than modeling but Raven your not being helpful to the guy. He just wants know why the skills for modeling are sometimes more of a thinker's skill than an artist's skill.

¤§Ben§¤

B-L (Black Lab Studio) *Woof*
Mason
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 09:33 Edited at: 21st Dec 2004 09:44
Raven, I think you just need to chill out for a second. I agree With BL Ben, and I do think that it is lame how the whole thing works. One more thing Raven, your not helping him at all (Just like the other 50% of your posts...)

¤§Mason§¤

B-L (Black Lab Studios) *Woof* ~ Other Member(s): BL Ben
BenDstraw
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 09:46
Even though I agree that programming is harder than modeling but Raven your not being helpful to the guy. He just wants know why the skills for modeling are sometimes more of a thinker\'s skill than an artist\'s skill...

¤§Ben§¤

B-L (Black Lab Studio) *Woof* ~ Other Member(s): BL Mason
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 10:07
I'm not trying to help him. There is nothing about 3D that makes it more of a thought skill... because these skills are always needed.

You can't just paint a picture mindlessly, and expect it to just appear fine. Each time you pick up a brush, you have to think where things will go, where the lighting will fall, how you can portray your idea on the canvas.

3D Modelling is much easier in a way, because you KNOW what the limits are and what your working towards. This is all part of being an artist. 2D, 3D, Monolithic, whatever your creating it is all still subjective to the exact same skills... Figuring out a way to present your idea from your imagination to whatever end medium.

If you don't like what I have to say on the matter, tough!
I'm not saying it for your benifit, and I am not saying it to get approval as a nice guy. I'm saying it because it's true.

This is all a skill, and a talent. If he can't see it this way and believes the computer should do the work for him, then obviously there is a lack of skill and/or talent. Rigging a Model for animation is a pain in the ass, it require one HELL of alot more though that Skinning ever does or will... And really try skinning your models in Milkshape then use Maya/Max/Lightwave/XSI, and tell me that UV Mapping in those are a chore! You can't because they've added so much to those programs that you are more just thinking about layout than how the hell to actually achieve any reasonable layout with your current UV possibilities.


BenDstraw
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 10:16
couldnt of said it any better. Anyway just work on it and you'll get it soon. just continue being an artist double post was an accident and an error came that didnt let me change saying System Error. Sorry but I have to abort now. "Unknown System Error. Please try again later." As for Raven wtf I'm not going to argue in a post about this but I'll say this your wrong END OF STORY!!!

¤§Ben§¤

B-L (Black Lab Studio) *Woof* ~ Other Member(s): BL Mason
Mason
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 10:18
Quote: " Raven: If he can't see it this way and believes the computer should do the work for him, then obviously there is a lack of skill and/or talent. "
Raven, can you read. I never saw him put anything like that in his post. Now your putting words in peoples mouth.
Quote: "Raven: You can't just paint a picture mindlessly, and expect it to just appear fine."
Wow that comment was intelligent (*sarcasm*)
Quote: " Raven: Rigging a Model for animation is a pain in the ass, it require one HELL of alot more though that Skinning ever does or will. "
Thats the only thing you have said in this thread thats actually correct.

¤§Mason§¤

B-L (Black Lab Studios) *Woof* ~ Other Member(s): BL Ben
Clueless
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 10:32
Quote: "That's the same with every dissernable skill you learn..."


And the discernable skills as well. But I digress.

Your question is a good one MiR, and it cuts to the very heart of software design.

Complex programs require teams of programmers paired with experts in another field -- art and design, in this case. Very often they have followed totally different educational paths and have developed very different approaches to solving problems.

UV mapping, for example, comes straight out of second-year university curriculum for professional programmers. It's a mathematical mapping approach that existed long before the first cube was ever textured. When artists told programmers "texture this", the programmers used pretty much the same math they would have used in a military application that had to deliver enough bombs on a target to destroy it, or a high enough concentration of red paint on the Golden Gate Bridge to withstand the average salinity of water vapor in San Francisco in June.

Problem is, even when the programmers hit their targets, paint their bridges, or texture map their trolls and princesses properly, they often forget to hide the plumbing from those who don't care to see the pipes, so to speak. Those who use the programs have to learn problem solving, the programmer's way. Not good, unless you're a programmer.

The first step in making things better is well represented by the earlier post in this thread by an accomplished programmer who understands that UV mapping is a nightmare, and why it is a nightmare, and is writing a program he hopes will be an answer to that problem. To his credit, the same approach was announced last week by Caligari as an enhancement to their UV mapping tools. Things are getting better.
Clueless
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 10:43 Edited at: 21st Dec 2004 11:45
Quote: "because your carbon copying someone else.
"


You mean you're, Raven?
Mason
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 11:00
clueless, really good metaphor . That Even Clears things up for me and I didn't even make this post. Thats a good post, I hope that helps MiR out.

¤§Mason§¤

B-L (Black Lab Studios) *Woof* ~ Other Member(s): BL Ben
Chenak
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 11:08
i find UV mapping easy.. texturing is a pain in the arse for me
Clueless
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 11:21
BL,

As they said in the movie, Raven has been weighed and measured. For those who missed it, my previous post is deliberately laughing at him for a stunt last week where he made numerous spelling mistakes in a rant about people making spelling mistakes.

Quote: "when all it does is put a strain on people trying to read thier retarded posts that aren't even spelt correctly;
"


"thier"?

Sadly for MiR and the rest of us who thought he raised an excellent point, this thread will probably suffer the same fate as the last one -- locked when somebody with expertise that eclipses Raven's actually points him out as a poser who inflates his self image by making posts with no technical content and lots of insults, and challenges him to say something worthwhile.

Last week Raven, you showed you can't spell. The week before that, you didn't understand paging. Before that, process scheduling. Before that, you couldn't recount the history of one of the operating systems you were lecturing about.

One thing that's consistent, you're always willing to toss out an insult rather than a fact. It's all you have.

Quoth the Raven:
Quote: "
, but I'm trying to be pleasent.
"


That's "pleasant".
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 11:48
Tell ya'll what... REREAD his first post. If you want to back-up any of the comments ya'll have made about my right to talk in this area, perhaps you should damn well ask other users about just what the hell I've done for a living for the past 8 years.

If you care to see how 'pleasent' I can become, just keep pushing..


Clueless
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 12:03
Quote: "If you care to see how 'pleasent' I can become, just keep pushing.."


Gladly. I'd sell my soul for the chance to debate you openly in these forums without a moderator locking it down.

I know what you've been doing for a living for 8 years Raven -- intimidating people with a nasty mouth and the pretense you're an expert.

I've dealt with pretenders like you for 22 years Raven. You're a fraud.
BenDstraw
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 12:07
wow pushy man Im new here and I can already tell whos a

¤§Ben§¤

B-L (Black Lab Studio) *Woof* ~ Other Member(s): BL Mason
Mason
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 12:10 Edited at: 21st Dec 2004 12:11
Quote: " Raven: you should damn well ask other users about just what the hell I've done for a living for the past 8 years."
If you have been doing this for 8 years, then I pity you. The only thing I have seen you accomplish is lower other inspiring programmers self-esteem.
Quote: "Raven has been weighed and measured. For those who missed it, my previous post is deliberately laughing at him for a stunt last week where he made numerous spelling mistakes in a rant about people making spelling mistakes."
Clueless, thank you. Raven is the biggest hypocrite. Plus I will take Clueless's advice over this Over Inflated Pile Of ...

And yes, this thread has completely lost its value and I hope that the moderators lock this thread. Or wait no, even better. Make it a sticky so people can see how ignorant and redundant Raven's Comments are.

¤§Mason§¤

B-L (Black Lab Studios) *Woof* ~ Other Member(s): BL Ben
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 12:42
Quote: "I know what you've been doing for a living for 8 years Raven -- intimidating people with a nasty mouth and the pretense you're an expert.

I've dealt with pretenders like you for 22 years Raven. You're a fraud. "


I'm sure you have, no doubt people like me are a dime-a-dozen. You see my type all the time, they're always there trying to make someone feel small to make them feel big or some other psychological stuff that one comes from 22years of pent up annoyance because the retards of the company have been being promoted over you and you have found yourself someone to try and take it out on.

Yeah, sidestepping the issue that.. your posts have been blatently just to attack me for my comments, come in and attempt you damnedest to show you have more of a flurry for the english language through trying to show me up through the super-ficial grammatical and spelling correctness of my posts.

I really have nothing more to say, because well.. I've delt with alot of guys who have been very pissy with me the one time I challenge them on anything. I could present myself in a more diplomatic mannor but then that would neither be me, nor would it get to the point.

If you feel offended be me, then tough. Either live to put up with it, else there are going to be alot more instances like this.
See the biggest mistake you've made in your post is calling me a 'Poser', a 'Pretender' and a 'Fraud'.

As I am non. I think you find what pisses alot of people off here more is the fact that I act the way I do, despite my talent and abilities. If I ever choose to show my work in these forums again, I will... but I have shown my work here before. I have shown my work to others. And despite ALOT of attempts of people trying to get proof that I am a fraud, all they have ever come up with is Circumstancial evidence to back-up thier claims. Because there is no evidence to back up thier claims.

I know my sh*t, and in-fact I happen to have a number of Siggraph members who accepted a paper I co-wrote, which through accident I ended up being the speaker talking about to a crowd full of people with one hell of a lot more experience that I have.

If you read what this post is about you might understand why it pisses me off so much...

I feel insulted because MiR seems to believe that a task that allows me to express my creativity and prowess with my art is something that is something that the programmers should make a tool to do for me.

I feel doubly insulted as a new engine / tool programmer, that somehow it is my fault that he isn't capable of doing something in his favourite program... as he is accussing the programmers of not doing something to have the computer do something for him.

I feel even more insulted because MiR is not a professional artist, and as such in my eyes blaming his tools and those who developed or will develop them is extremely insulting.

A poor workman blames his tools for his short commings.
A even worse one uses the wrong tools.

What do I have here, a thread of people who picked up a copy of 3D Studio Max or alike and suddenly they're resident experts. Sorry but a modem and a hard disk large enough to house these programs does not make you experts.
Further more to the point running a week of tutorials doesn't even mean you KNOW the program let alone can have a valid say in what it can and can't do... if what MiR has at his disposal isn't good enough; then tough.

He can either by the hyper-expensive 3D Paint, and shut up... or take the time like hundreds of other want to be artists and put in the hard work to learn how to do it correctly.
Life isn't going to be handed to you on a damn plate, and if you want things done you are going to have to go do it your damn self.

Oh but wait, obviously you knew that this was what this was all about because you know my type and you know I'm a fraud.

You know if MiR had put his case across asking for tools that could help him, I would never have said what I did, simply left a link. No he had to insult my profession and the tools being used and just about everything else.

If I wanted to be really insulting to him I could've been. I have simply said what really needed to be said to him, and if you don't like that well then cry me a damn river.. because obviously you have more experience in this area and no doubt you'll become another mr-i've-done-it-all like Empty. So I'm totally over joyed to think your the next pain in my side guy who some how believes he should have some vendetta against me because I've said an off comment to him at some point in the past and he's taken offense to it when really I've not ment anything other than the fact value of the saying, all because you can't see past what everything could possibly mean and how people could possibly say something, as obviously everyone always means something other than exactly what the hell they've said.

Well bollock, I'm not that deep of a person to understand. I say what I mean.. you don't like my abruptness click Sign Off and leave me and the rest of the forum in peace because all your going to do antagonising me is fill this forum more full of flaming crap that it doesn't need. So perhaps today you can wake up and stop being a retard and get back to sitting in the minority shadows of the nobody you were in this forum before you decided you were going to have a voice and speak up because at the end of the day the only people who actually care what your saying are the other people who don't particularly like me.

So be sensible and keep the peace.


Clueless
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 14:07
Once again Raven rushes unarmed into a battle of wits.

Quote: "have more of a flurry for the english language through trying to show me up through the super-ficial grammatical and spelling correctness of my posts.

"


I'm simply pointing out the issue that you're STILL dodging -- you came out with a post calling somebody an ignorant retard because of a supposed spelling mistake. You have made at least seven more in the last 3 messages I've seen you post.

So I'm asking you again, in front of everybody here: what is your opinion of people who make spelling mistakes?

If you don't like your own answer when it's applied to you... well, then... I'm treating you EXACTLY as you treat others. It feels terrible, doesn't it?

Quote: "If you feel offended be me, then tough. Either live to put up with it, else there are going to be alot more instances like this."


OK. You want me to adopt the same attitude toward you that you have toward others. So here it is: If you're offended by people pointing out your childish behavior, then tough. Either learn to live with it, or there are going to be a lot more instances like this.
Mason
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 16:46
Your throwing quite a hissy fit. I can see your attempt using your "big" words to make yourself look like you know what your talking about, but quite frankly you haven't the slightest clue of what your jabbering about.
Quote: " you don't like my abruptness click Sign Off and leave me and the rest of the forum in peace because all your going to do antagonising me is fill this forum more full of flaming crap that it doesn't need."
Raven, Have you noticed that their is not one person in this Damn forum that is backing you up. Your horrible personality, along with your s****y attitude have gotten you nothing but the sense or feeling that you are better then them, but sadly you are just a Fraud, Poser, Pretender, and Just a plain out Fake.

¤§Mason§¤

B-L (Black Lab Studios) *Woof* ~ Other Member(s): BL Ben
BenDstraw
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 16:53
BL Mason covered most of it. but Raven I want see something you made(A Program). If its quality work then a ceasefire of words is called between you, BL Mason , and Clueless plus they say you have not made anything and Im going to be a MythBuster and see if its true or not.

¤§Ben§¤

B-L (Black Lab Studio) *Woof* ~ Other Member(s): BL Mason
Jonny Ree
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 18:43
I wasnt expecting this to turn out a personal fight. And I cannot state my opinion about the attacks made by and defended by Raven or the other ways around etc.

But on the original subject I must say I agree with Raven on this one about skills. If he is fake or not, or whatever attitude he has I cannot say or not.. but so far he's the only on on this forum that has given me constructive critique on my work and helped me to continue.. I must say some of his other replys to this thread has been quite harsh.. but at least his first one was right on subject and he was just stating his opinion on it. I'm not taking any sides here.. I just think you guys was a bit quick to attack back.. I have no history here and I dont know about past events.. so I'm just wanto to end saying, at least he's got some support on the actual subject of this thread
Mason
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 19:07
Jonny Ree, No offense but you have been in the forums for about 15 days, you don\'t know Raven like everyone else does. If he helped you out, great, but he is an a§§hole that has some serious issues with accepting when he is wrong. He is a Stubborn Poser that likes to post a load of Garbage.

¤§Mason§¤

B-L (Black Lab Studios) *Woof* ~ Other Member(s): BL Ben
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 19:37
Quote: "Jonny Ree, No offense but you have been in the forums for about 15 days, you don\\\'t know Raven like everyone else does. If he helped you out, great, but he is an a§§hole that has some serious issues with accepting when he is wrong. He is a Stubborn Poser that likes to post a load of Garbage."


No offense, but I don't remember seeing your name around here for more than a few days. To me you seem like a newbie, trying to pretend he's been here much longer.
Personally I think that your more of an ass, for completely dismissing someone else's comments... for a 'Stubborn Poser that likes to post Garbage', I would say that the amount of people I help out on a regular basis is probably more than you are ever likely to.

Whether I ever choose to finish and/or release my personal projects, really is down to me. Fact remains I'm still here to offer my help an expertise when needed.

Quote: "BL Mason covered most of it. but Raven I want see something you made(A Program). If its quality work then a ceasefire of words is called between you, BL Mason , and Clueless plus they say you have not made anything and Im going to be a MythBuster and see if its true or not."


Why a program? This is about artwork, what will me showing a program prove to you that I know what I'm talking about with an Art issue?
Further more, if you want me to prove my work; then anyone else in this thread should do the same... as far as the projects I have been and am involved with you just have to look around the forum.

There have been far more than a few.


Richard Davey
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Posted: 21st Dec 2004 21:18
Enough children.

Locked.

Super Joe crack combat soldier fights a long battle against overwhelming odds.

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