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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Christmas under attack, your thoughts.

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Major Payn
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Posted: 25th Dec 2004 11:55
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Well as some of you may know, every year christmas comes under attack by certain groups, claiming that certain christmas traditions in the market place, or public office, is a violation of the seperation of church and state. Now that is understandable, but as the years seem to pass, the attacks on christmas and religion in general are becoming more powerful. Here in the United states, the ACLU (American civil liberties union?? I think) has launched several campaigns to try and seperate any form of a religiouse holiday from the public work place, now the ACLU was formed to protect the liberties of the American people, and just and honorable cause, but what they have become is anything by honorable. One such case that the ACLU filed that I find very disturbing, is the case in which the ACLU sued a Boy scout troop for practicing their religiouse beliefs while on publicly owned land. Of course this issue is two sided, on the one side you have group of people, who find themselves offended by the public displays of christian beliefs, and on the other hand, you have a large christian population, that feels descriminated against. It seems obviouse that christmas has drifted away from it's true meaning, it was a holiday that used to simbolize Jesus Christ's birthday, but it has become a corporate sales fest, a one month period, of non stop marketing, and "gifts", a cheery non-donominational figure "santa clause" has taken the main role of christmas, and takes front stage, Jesus is left out of the public eye. I make this point to show that christmas can be viewed as two different things, if your a christian, you will probably view it as the birthday of Jesus Christ, if your a non-christian, you can view it as a time of reflections and giving. But it is not only christmas that finds itself under attack, it is riligion as a whole, but why? Is it that offensive to see the ten commandments outside a courthouse? After all our principle laws are based off of those ten commandments, and they all sum up certain principles that if followed, can add tremendouse values to the human race! I am a christian, I am not a very riligiouse person, so I feel as though I can look upon things from both perspectives, but I cannot for the likes of me, understand what is so offensive about christmas, maybe this can be explained to me, or maybe I am missing the point. Discuss please.

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Ian T
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Posted: 25th Dec 2004 13:54 Edited at: 25th Dec 2004 13:57
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Anyone offended by public displays of religion is attempting to invert their civil rights-- it is not an attack on their rights or property for another to make their religion clear, and attempting to force people to "keep their religion to themselves" is turning the first amendment on its head. The idea isn't that nobody talks about their beliefs in public and everybody gets along; it's that everybody talks about their beliefs.

I'm not questioning anybody's right to be offended by anything, much less a religion, but nobody has a right to attempt to force others to keep its practice private.

(Edit: Blurgh, wrong amendment )

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JeBuS
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Posted: 25th Dec 2004 14:09 Edited at: 25th Dec 2004 14:14
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I don't have a problem with a Christian holiday being a day off of work, but I would expect that a holiday in any other religion should be treated with the same level of respect. I also have no problem with a religious activity (that doesn't interfere with my or anyone else's rights) being performed on public property. On the same token, I'd expect that any public property be available to every religious group to perform their activity.

As such, let's take the 10 commandments statue outside the courthouse as an example. I've no problem with it being there, so long as an equal opportunity is afforded anyone else who wishes to place a religious symbol in a position of equal prominence.

In effect, what I'm saying is, give everyone the same rights, or deny them to all equally, without discrimination.

Also, on a similar note, I don't think government officials should, in official statements, suggest they are doing the will of their god. Their purpose in the government is to do the will of the people, not of a god, ghoul, or ghost.


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Benjamin
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Posted: 25th Dec 2004 19:36
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Quote: "Anyone offended by public displays of religion is attempting to invert their civil rights"

Dude you don't know what your talking about

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Dave J
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Posted: 25th Dec 2004 21:16 Edited at: 25th Dec 2004 21:24
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Well I'm not too familiar with the U.S. constitution, but there was a very large issue in France about banning religious symbols such as the Muslim hijab and headscarve, as well as other icons such as 'large' crosses and David's Star, etc. The law was only valid for public schools and buildings so it's quite similar to the protests against christmas, in particular, displaying the famous nativity scene.

After some research, I actually discovered that the French constitution didn't protect the citizens right to publically display their religion, instead, it appears France was built around creating a secular country with no religious face, and as such, their laws were created to support this. As a consequence, when someone claims that banning religious symbols in public places is abusing their 'rights', they're actually incorrect, they never had that right in the first place. This only relates to France though, and perhaps Petrat... err, Ben, could verify it's correct.

The point I'm trying to make is that you may be a little amazed to find what the first amendment actually does and does not protect. I wouldn't be the least be surprised if a lot of people had a few misconceptions about what rights they really have.


Edit: And here you go, America is nothing like France:

Quote: "Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."


However, that can easily be interpreted to mean that you have the right to choose your own religion, but it says nothing about being able to publically express that religion.


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The Real 87
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Posted: 25th Dec 2004 22:08
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I always laugh at them, if they want to celebrate Christmas they should celebrate it for what it really is, not what they want it to be.

YES Exeat (is that ur name I see you changed it for the season) anyperson CAN display their religion all they want. So the CEO of Target could make all his employee's say Merry Christmas to all the customers, and fire those that do not for not following orders (descrimination: the legal and more fun way).

If you have a problem with a Christian Holiday getting you off of work, then be my guest to go to work, and charge overtime.


The only thing about these groups that really pisses me off is that their only beef is with Christmas. This year in my comunity an Elementary School had a Jewish candle thing (can't remeber the name), the Muslim holiday thingy and a Nativity Sceen. Can you guess what the school had to take down, thats right the Nativiy Sceen.

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Major Payn
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Posted: 25th Dec 2004 23:48
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Quote: "The only thing about these groups that really pisses me off is that their only beef is with Christmas. This year in my comunity an Elementary School had a Jewish candle thing (can't remeber the name), the Muslim holiday thingy and a Nativity Sceen. Can you guess what the school had to take down, thats right the Nativiy Sceen.
"


This is exactly the kind of thing that is happening! One person complains, and the school feels like it needs to comply, last time I checked, a democracy was not built off of a one person decision but a vote among the populus, so why then do we never get to vote on these issues? I believe that this is all descrimination against the christian religion. And what is wrong with the nativity scene? Even if your not a christian, you should be able to understand that Jesus was a real person, who made an remarkable impact on the world.

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JeBuS
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 00:16
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Quote: "a democracy was not built off of a one person decision but a vote among the populus"


You really don't want to go there

Quote: "Even if your not a christian, you should be able to understand that Jesus was a real person, who made an remarkable impact on the world."


At least half of that could be debated.


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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 00:39
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What can be debated about jesus's impact on the world? You cannot overlook that fact, that this one individual created the most popular religion in the world today, and changed history forever.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 00:48 Edited at: 26th Dec 2004 00:51
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Quote: "This only relates to France though, and perhaps Petrat... err, Ben, could verify it's correct.
"

I have no idea . I don't really have any concern for this stuff..and why should I, I'm just a kid

Quote: "What can be debated about jesus's impact on the world? You cannot overlook that fact, that this one individual created the most popular religion in the world today, and changed history forever"

What makes you think Jesus really existed?

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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 00:52
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Well it's a proven fact, We have records of him in ancient Roman documents among other things.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 00:55
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Yeah thats proof

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JeBuS
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 00:57
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Quote: "What can be debated about jesus's impact on the world? You cannot overlook that fact, that this one individual created the most popular religion in the world today, and changed history forever."


That wasn't the half I meant could be debated.

Quote: "Even if your not a christian, you should be able to understand that Jesus was a real person..."


That's the part I was referring to.

Quote: "You cannot overlook that fact, that this one individual created the most popular religion in the world today, and changed history forever."


As for that... if Jesus existed, and for the sake of argument let's say he did, he did not create a religion. He preached a return to true Judaism. I don't remember him being quoted as saying anything about how you should worship him as god. Jesus, as a Jew, would have thought it heresy to worship a man in place of his god.

The apostles created Christianity, St Peter was the one who gained most from it. As the defacto leader of the then leaderless cult of Christianity, he held great power over the few who followed.


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TKF15H
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 01:02
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Ben, that's a historical fact. If Jesus hadn't been there, who changed history? The romans made it all up???


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JeBuS
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 01:10 Edited at: 26th Dec 2004 01:12
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Quote: " Ben, that's a historical fact. If Jesus hadn't been there, who changed history? The romans made it all up???"


All Roman historical mentions of Christians occur between 100 and 200 years after the fact. And the Romans only mentioned what they were told about Christianity, hearsay, in other words. Hearsay isn't applicable today as evidence, don't know why you would rely upon it to prove your religion.

That would be like 2000 years from now, a historian says for a fact that the history of middle earth is real, because Tolkien mentioned it in all of his writings. Who knows, in 2000 years, they could worship Gandalf.


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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 01:15
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Ok, ok, lets get back to the issue at hand, christmas under attack! This is stupid right? I mean, I don't get offended when I see other riligeous symbols, so why is the nativity scene so bad?

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Anomaly
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 01:17
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Christmas is a mismash of pagan traditions retro-fitted into christianity, and plenty of marketing.
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JeBuS
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 01:21 Edited at: 26th Dec 2004 01:44
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Christmas is a wonderful economic stimulus package, it can defend itself


(I do like how no one is arguing any of my points, makes me feel almost as though I'm right... but that can't be... I just have to wait for the people with the real guns to come into this discussion )


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Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 01:41
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Quote: "Ben, that's a historical fact. If Jesus hadn't been there, who changed history? The romans made it all up???"

Don't be so naive

Theres no real proof that he existed

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SageTech
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 01:57
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Hey, I live in the U.S (as my profile says) and know the constitution like the back of my hand. First off, the only country to ever have "Seperation of Church and State" was the soviot Union, and they were communists and fell apart. Second, the constitution says no where in it that seperation of church and state is required. truly it reads:


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Do you see seperation of church and state in there anywhere?
no it means congress shall make no law making an official church or not allowing religion to be practiced freely. seperation of church and state came from a president, that was his beliefs, not the constitutions.

some one outta tell that to the Aclu, which in my oppinion a big buracracy, mayebee that will shut their mouths

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Ian T
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 02:02
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Quote: "Second, the constitution says no where in it that seperation of church and state is required."


It doesn't use the phrase. It does make the concept of seperation of church and state clear, and the founding fathers of the country made it very clear they supported the concept in their writings and speeches.

(Why am I always caught between the Christians and the Athiests ? No offense...)

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SageTech
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 02:03
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another comment is that proof of god and Jesus is all around. Dont tell me you think we evolved from little sea creatures. thats naive. many archeaolgy digs have linked to biblical events!

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SageTech
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 02:05
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but only communist really put that law into works as I said and as we know those countries are disasters.

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Ian T
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 02:05
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Okay... I suppose it was inevitable with would fall into the typical athiest/christian mudslinging event, but just as a fair warning: anything out of line will get this thread locked. If it frustrates you, leave it .

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JeBuS
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 02:21 Edited at: 26th Dec 2004 02:23
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Heh, I only see one person mudslinging, and I think, as a moderator, you could clean it up rather quickly.

And to anyone who would think to rebutt said mudslinging with further mudslinging, just remember, the mudslinger is a child, who has not fully developed the skills of debate. You will only make yourself look like a child by retaliating.


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Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 02:24 Edited at: 26th Dec 2004 02:29
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Quote: "another comment is that proof of god and Jesus is all around. Dont tell me you think we evolved from little sea creatures"

That doesn't count as proof. Proof of a theory is only when there are no other logical explanations for things. Or something.

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Major Payn
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 02:48
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I believe that trying to ban religion in the public is wrong! You may be making a few people happy, but on the other end of the spectrum, your alienating riligiouse people everywhere. Church in state are to be seperate, because you don't want the government to use a riligiouse view to try and control the people, however, many riligions follow principles and values that are needed, lets face it, the Ten commandments are commen sense, they are things that all people can relate to, riligion should not be forced on anyone, it is a institution of the willing, you don't have to practice it if you don't want to, and you sure don't have to believe in it either, so what I don't get is why Athiests are so offended by the word God in the pledge? If you don't believe in God, then what is the problem? I remember that the whole Pledge case, was headed by one individual, that individual caused some school systems, to take God out of the pledge, why? Becuase he was an Athiest and didn't want his daughter to resite anything about god. Not only did we give into his demands, but we overlooked the fact that he might be harming his daughter by forcing her to accept his beliefs, wow thats wrong. Well thats my opinion, and should be taken with a grain of salt. Now on to something els. The United states was formed on the principle of freedom of religion, I mean come on, no overlooking it. The pilgrims came to america to escape prosecution from England for their religiouse beliefs, the country was founded by people who came to North America to be able to freely practice their religiouse beliefs. Now then, why is it illigal to have a nativity scene outside a school, while it is perfectly fine to have the star of david?

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Ian T
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 03:35
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Quote: "Church in state are to be seperate, because you don't want the government to use a riligiouse view to try and control the people"


Bingo! It's funny how many religious types don't see this, I think, because ultimatly it serves to protect the integrity of their church. Just a comment

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Joe Cooning
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 08:52
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Probably an easier way to inturpret the original meaning for seperation of church and state it that the church shouldn't have the right to control state issues and the state control over church issues.
As for the existence of Christ...if you can say that, despite the documents, that he doesn't exist, than you can say that other historic figures don't exist, despite the documents proving them. You can rewrite history. True, there may be more proof for some historic figures than others, but you need to realize that considering how long ago Christ existed and the area that his influence reached all plays a part in who much we know of him. Also, as for the Roman documents, how much did Christ matter to the Romans? For all the Romans are concerned, Christ could just be a historic sidenote that that they didn't figure was worth mentioning until later. It all depends on how you look at things. AS for me, the proof we have is more than enough proof for me that he existed.

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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 08:55
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Anybody who squabbles over Christmas needs to be shot .

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TKF15H
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 09:15
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Quote: "Don't be so naive

Theres no real proof that he existed
"

I have no proof you exist either. You could all be Richard Davey with a thousand logins.
Thousands of people saw Jesus. So you don't have his coffin, but more witnesses than necessary. People have died for what he taught since his time till ours. Including the desciples. Would they do that knowing it was something they made up?

You don't believe he existed because you refuse to.


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Joe Cooning
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 09:33
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You know, I love the irony of what Bear Crazy Donut Productions just said compared to the sig of the person right below his post.

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Why the heck is evryone saying seperation of church and state was what the founding fathers wanted? if they did want that in the constitution they would have put it in there! Its not in there! and those who say "how could Jesus have existed?", well if thats a theory from christians as they say, evolution has just as much chance of being a theory, it came around in the 1800's after belief in god. so indeed it is newer and not as much is true.

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Major Payn
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Your right! There is no reall nod to seperation of church and state in the constitution, yet we let a small goup of secularists bully the government into changing our way of life? This country existed for over 200 years without all this non-sense, what happened, is that the government let one person bully them into doing something, and all of a sudden everybody thinks they can do it to, and start complaining about stuff that is irrelevant to thier lives, why don't they rally for something constructive! And the ACLU is at the center of it all, that one organization needs to be abolished, it has done nothing but alienate the rights of thousands of people for the personal satisfaction of a few.

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Ian T
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 11:37
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Quote: "This country existed for over 200 years without all this non-sense"


A very ignorant statement. Seperation of church and state has been an issue debated without pause since the beginning of the country (and well before it of course). Religious integrity has been an advertizment ploy for presidential elections for centuries.

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Jimmy
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 13:57
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How about separation of internet and morons.


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SageTech
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 15:57
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huh, thought they locked this thread, well anyway why is it so hard to understand this : SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE=COMMUNIST ALLOWING FREE PRACTICE OF RELIGION AS THE CONSTITUTION SAYS=GOOD COUNTRY! lets look at some examples here,:

Soviout Union: Seperation of church and state enforced,
country collapsees

United States in early years: Free practice of religion allowed,
country turns into most succesfull coutry by many standards.

that hard to understand?

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JeBuS
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 16:22 Edited at: 26th Dec 2004 16:47
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HAHAHAHAHA

Oh, I'm so very sorry. It's just that, a bunch of 12 year olds walk into a bar...

Oh wait, that's not the joke, this is:

A bunch of 12 year olds navigate to a forum, and begin to argue about things they have very little understanding of.


Bwahahahahahahaha

Now, I'm sorry, but I seem to have wasted perfectly logical thoughts on you lot, because you're too stubborn and unwittingly ignorant to actually think, and research what you are talking about. In the future, you may want to do some research on the topic at hand, before you go and make a post about it. I'd suggest grabbing useful links to articles in reputable publications, that can be corroborated in other sources.

Mods, please lock this thread before I go on a drinking binge and decide to 'educate' them.


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SageTech
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 16:57
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I have little understanding of this matter? well, let me ask you what understanding do you have of it. You know why you want this thread locked? it's becouse your scared to accept a supreme ruler is more powerfull then you. As a human does, you want to be the almighty ruler, but your not, God, and indeed jusus are the supreme rulers, and you can accept that or live a life without meaning. its up to you. just remember god accepts all people. if you wish to you can turn to him any time

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JeBuS
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 16:58 Edited at: 26th Dec 2004 17:11
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Quote: "because you're too stubborn and unwittingly ignorant to actually think"


Quote: "well, let me ask you what understanding do you have of it."


It's not unlikely that I know more about your religion than you do. Because of my education, I also probably know more about the rest of this world's religions than you do. As such, I believe I have the upperhand in any true debate you and I could possibly have.

I want this thread locked, because I'm afraid I may eventually slip, and go beyond the bounds of a PG-13 board. Frustration caused by ignoramuses has a tendency to do that to me.


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IanM
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Joined: 11th Sep 2002
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Posted: 26th Dec 2004 19:02
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On topic:
Not being an American, I don't give a jot about the separation of church & state, but it does seem to me that this separation doesn't mean that banning religeous activity on publically owned property will alienate those religions. A little more disturbing (not researched by me) that you say that the ACLU only seems to target christianity ...

Off topic:
@Sage, if you want to debate this, please research a little more, and understand that no-one is going to take you seriously if you resort to the standard response that *always* seems to get posted in these sorts of thread ... like you just did.

@Jimmy, I'm starting to agree ...

Because this is Christmas, I'm not sure how many other mods are going to be here, and because of the probability that this thread will deteriorate into religeous mudslinging, I'm going to lock it for now. I (or another mod) will unlock it once we can spend some time monitoring it.

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