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Geek Culture / Democrats and liberals are NOT communists!

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Mr Underhill
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 04:22
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Okay, at the request of everyone in this thread,
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=44614&b=2

I have decided to take my political argument out into a new thread.

What originally started this argument was this quote by Sage Tech Administrator:

Quote: "you know whos going to take over the world? not bush ,(whos a great president by the way) no, someone so fowl, that they have shared their beliefs throught the world and now have millions of followers, these people are...........................Socialists, Comunists, Demacrats , etc, they will take over with thier ways of burrowing into the us, they are, indeed, the enemy withen!"


The problem with this argument (aside from improper grammar), is that, as I said:

Quote: "For the last time, democrats and liberals are NOT communists! I hate communism as much as I do despotism, fascism, and all totalitarian governments, I'm as patriotic and pro-democracy as the next guy, and yet I am still a heavy-duty liberal and proud of it.

I know I'm going off on a rant, but I hate it when people try to pigeon-hole every liberal or democrat as a communist, when we are almost-entirely not. If I called every single republican or conservative a neo-nazi fascist (which, for the record, I am not), I'm sure you'd feel the same way."


To which, Sage Tech replied:
Quote: " demecrats belive in many simialar things that communist believe, such as:

Seperation of church and state
letting "big brother" help out
a socity with no classes, or just taxing the heck out of rich people
the list rolls on"


Which is again, not true. Seperation of church and state isn't a communist idea, it's a democratic one (by this, I obviously mean democratic government, not party).

"Letting big brother help out", is more or less the basic premise for any government, communist or not (I can explain if anyone wants me to).

And most democrats (including myself), don't believe in a classless society. Economic classes are beneficial, and sometimes neccesary, to a healthy economy. But indiscriminately giving money to the rich in the form of tax cuts while cutting support to the middle and lower classes is not.

The only quote from Sage Tech that made any sort of logical sense was this:

Quote: "look, really it depends on what level of demecrat views you are at, some are more extreme then others, and extremeists are indeed 9 out of 10 communist."


Agreed, I can't say that absolutely no communists exist in the democratic party, simply because I don't know. But just because one apple has a bruise on it, you can't say the entire tree is rotten. Most democrats (and even most liberal democrats) are, by a large majority, not communist.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but if I did, sorry in advance. I especially didn't mean to offend Sage Tech, I'm not saying you're stupid or anything, I'm just saying your argument doesn't hold water.

I just wanted to set the record straight.
~Underhill

P.S. Any comments are appreciated if you can keep them civil (i.e. no flaming).

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I feel your pain, man. Wait...pain?!
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SageTech
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 04:30
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seperation of church and state is not a demecrartic idea! its not in our constitution and if you think thats what the first ammendment means then your reading it wrong!

but i may have been over line, look i dont want to make any enemies so i apoligise

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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 04:36
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The phrase is "Out of Line".

Now a political rap:

Tony blair
Has No Hair
But he don't care
Cos he got a bear
To look after him
And bears are cool
And bears are safe
Yes.


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Mr Underhill
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 04:46 Edited at: 29th Dec 2004 04:47
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Quote: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."


1st Amendment, exact quote. It does get a bit hazy when laws get involved that are based on religion but not technically religious (ex. abortion), so I see your point. But the basic idea is there.

Quote: "i may have been over line, look i dont want to make any enemies so i apoligise"


Apology accepted and returned for anything I may have done over-the-top. I don't want to make enemies, either.

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I mean.... not.. that i.... new that already.... i figured... maybe... CRUD! IM A NERD! -Ion Stream"

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TKF15H
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 04:52
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Philip never told us anything about an afair with blair...


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Mr Underhill
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 04:56 Edited at: 29th Dec 2004 04:58
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Hey that ain't fair to the bear with no hair.
Anyway, back on topic...

Quote: "A kilobyte is 1024 bytes, not 1028.
I mean.... not.. that i.... new that already.... i figured... maybe... CRUD! IM A NERD! -Ion Stream"

I feel your pain, man. Wait...pain?!
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Mx5 kris
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 05:09
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yah, I agree with Mr. Underhill. AND I AM REPUBLICAN.


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Killswitch
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 05:52
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Why does everyone hate communism so much? It's fundamentally a good idea, ok the USSR/China/North Korea aren't exactly on the top of my best-places-to-live list but that is not nessacrily because they are communist, it's because they have totalitarian governments.

Still I suppose the two come hand in hand.

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JeBuS
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 05:53
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Ah, good to see I didn't have to make a post about the difference between Democrat and Communist. By the way, there are Communists in the Republican party. Just go ahead and do some research, you'll be quite rudely awakened, I'm sure.


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Mx5 kris
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 06:05
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if any of you are talking to me, I know all that.


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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 07:20
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Quote: "that is not nessacrily because they are communist, it's because they have totalitarian governments."


The two are one and the same . To put it simply, the very nature of communism requires a central power organizing the "equilization". That's why it's not fundamentaly a good idea-- it requires the communist leaders to be morally sound, completely uncorrupt people; if they're not, it all falls apart. An interesting reflection on the naivity of the entire idea, and the reason it never has, and never will succeed.

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Rob K
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 08:17 Edited at: 29th Dec 2004 08:20
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Quote: "seperation of church and state is not a demecrartic idea! its not in our constitution and if you think thats what the first ammendment means then your reading it wrong!
"


Separation of Church and State is strongly implied by the US Constitution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Given the origins of the United States (persecuted Puritans fleeing from England), it makes sense that they would want to protect freedom of religion by separating Church and State.

Re: The whole Communism debate

Quote: "To put it simply, the very nature of communism requires a central power organizing the "equilization". That's why it's not fundamentaly a good idea-"


I'm not so sure. That seem's to have been Lenin's interpretation. However I think Marx himself believed that there would be an uprising and the existing government would be removed rather than replaced. My understanding is that he viewed it as an evolutionary step, ie. one which was inevitable, and did not need to be controlled.

It is impossible to know what Communism would be like, because, it has never really existed. It is impossible for a communist state to exist, because, by definition, in a communist society, there is no state. Marx viewed the state as a purely repressive institution whose purpose was to indoctrinate the proles to accept the class divisions and the Capitalist system. Hence in his utopia, there would be no state. Nobody would be rich, and nobody would be very poor either.

I don't know whether communism is a good or bad idea, I certainly don't think that it is "evil". All I will say is that I think it is unlikely to manifest itself because the capitalist system suits human nature very well. Socialism and communism both require a degree of sacrifice on the part of those "who have", and I feel that it will not always be forthcoming (as those include the enterprising middle classes and will likely move to another country. Hence the "Brain Drain" in Britain after old Labour massively increased taxes in the 1970s.)

I suppose if I had to describe China and the old USSR I would say that it had a lot in common with Fascist states. If you look at the criteria Mussolini identified as being key to a Facist state, it has an awful lot in common with the USSR / China:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism


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DarkSin
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 08:18 Edited at: 29th Dec 2004 08:26
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Well im really really borderline communist and I'm also a republican. Personaly I really like the communist setup but due to humans its really not possible. I'd vote for them really but... I plan on joining the millitary and they don't really care for you voting for communists (that and my party needs its occassional votes). And no I'm not a blind voting republican, I voted for several democratic people for most of the local area stuff.

I do agree that just because your a liberal or deomocrate doesn't make you a communist. Though there are exceptions like a good amount of liberal/democrates that I know of in washington that are closet communists and won't admit they are.

@ DrakeX
Quote: "while we're on the subject, not all republicans are emotionless, militaristic, materialistic members of the illuminati who want to control the world"

Fits me nicely . (Though not really the materialistic) lol


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DrakeX
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 08:21
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"the very nature of communism requires a central power organizing the "equilization""

that's socialism, which communists see as the "necessary step" between democracy and communism. true communism has no government, or rather, no central government - everyone participates. kind of like an open source government thinking about it that way, i wonder if it could succeed even if the socialist step went flawlessly. i mean, look at the opensource community now

while we're on the subject, not all republicans are emotionless, militaristic, materialistic members of the illuminati who want to control the world. and neither are they all uninformed backwoods inbred hillbillies who would rather die for their country than learn how to read.

for that matter, i'll bet that if you were to ask a bunch of people their opinions on a bunch of issues, you'd probably find that most people are right down the middle. politics, thankfully, aren't a religion here, so you aren't required to subscribe to a certain opinion. i personally have opinions on both sides of the center line, as do most of the people i know.

"when it's done" means "we have no idea, we forgot to do that; we were hoping you would all forget we promised <insert exotic promise here>"
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empty
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 08:24 Edited at: 29th Dec 2004 08:27
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Quote: "The two are one and the same . To put it simply, the very nature of communism requires a central power organizing the "equilization"."

That doesn't make it totalitarian per se.

Quote: "That's why it's not fundamentaly a good idea-- it requires the communist leaders to be morally sound, completely uncorrupt people; if they're not, it all falls apart. An interesting reflection on the naivity of the entire idea, and the reason it never has, and never will succeed."

Fundamentally it's not a bad idea. Although indeed very naive. Not only would it require leaders to have these virtues but the vast majority of people as well.



Quote: "that's socialism, which communists see as the "necessary step" between democracy and communism. true communism has no government, or rather, no central government - everyone participates. kind of like an open source government thinking about it that way, i wonder if it could succeed even if the socialist step went flawlessly. i mean, look at the opensource community now "

That's a nice analogy.


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Killswitch
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 08:25
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Well, I suppose you could argue that the current US government drew it's lifeblood from the Religious Right (which, in my opinion, is an oxy-moron)....

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Rob K
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 08:29
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Something else that caught my eye during the US elections. The G.W.Bush website really pushed Kerry's "liberal" reputation. I found myself asking "what's wrong with that?".
What really struck me is that there were no reasons given as to why this would be a bad thing. The site's propaganda implicitly assumed that liberal views would be perceived as "a bad thing".

I'm just curious if anyone can explain why these views are so despised by the right in America?

A fairly obvious point really, but the pseudo-Communist states which exists in China is certainly not remotely "liberal" or "democratic". China is very much authoritarian.

It seems to me that the whole liberal / communist association is something dreamed up by right-wing fundamentalists to create a fear of liberal views.


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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 08:30 Edited at: 29th Dec 2004 08:33
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I would have nothing against people 'trying' communism yet again (how many times does it have to fail for people to stop ignoring history?) if it didn't hurt and destroy so much in the process .

Quote: "Not only would it require leaders to have these virtues but the vast majority of people as well."


In a system with "no government" (which is impossible, there will always be local powers, even if they're not 'official'), that would most certainly be the case...


Quote: "It seems to me that the whole liberal / communist association is something dreamed up by right-wing fundamentalists to create a fear of liberal views."


I have to say that's a somewhat ironic statement.

A little shuffle--

Quote: "It seems to me that the whole right-wing fundamentalists association is something dreamed up by the liberals to create a fear of right-wing views."


Looks just as valid to me .


The majority of Bush voters considered themselves conservatives. A good deal of Kerry voters considered themselves liberals. The election widened the gap between the lines and both sides attacked the "liberals" and the "neocons". Personally I find that the left tends to overstate the case about extremism in the opposition more than the right, though both can be full of you know what whenever they get too caught up in their speel. But really, isn't it a bit ironic that you saw the flaw in the right's argument but made no mention of the exact same fallacy in the left? That's exactly what they're both playing off of in America

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DarkSin
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 08:44
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@Rob K
Usualy for the right Im assuming it points towards the rural rightwing people (I fall into this category sorrta). Liberals have a bad history with us of taking away our land (with the power of law) to protect some worthless mouse,owl,ect. There have also been problems where they try to stop logging in places where logging does more good then harm (fire control). Just generaly what I refer to as "City Liberals" just don't generaly know how nature really works and usualy try to force people that live in the country to live by rules they set that usualy do more harm then good.

Good example: A liberal (and yes we know it was a liberl, it was a animal rights activist) not to long ago had all our water taken away. Thats right, our entire county farmers went dry with no water from the lake by us. Want to know why? Because of sucker fish (on the endangered species list). Few things that make this funny.
A) Claimed the water level was to low for the sucker fish and they where being killed in the canals... Fact is sucker fish are MUD fish they prefer low level water areas with lots of mud. Infact they dont care for deep water.
B) Sucker fish are NOT native to this area, they where introduced here
C) They have grown in population greatly since they where put on the indangered list and in all reality, really should be taken off now because some areas have been reporting tons of them.
For basicly a year we went waterless for our farmers. Sure we could drink and everything, that was affected. But seeing as farming is basicly the BIGGEST source of work in this county it put just so many people without money and hungry. It was just a huge mess, almost had a riot of farmers on the Canal.

Its because of this that most liberals are viewed as bad people in this area. On a side note our one of our biggest suporters in the political field was a democrate who worked hard to get our water back, (He got elected this year thankfully).


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The Real 87
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 08:49
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*this is my one and only post*

You're right, they are more like socialists, because they will never control all the business in the country.

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Rob K
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 09:33 Edited at: 29th Dec 2004 09:34
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Quote: " [quote]"It seems to me that the whole right-wing fundamentalists association is something dreamed up by the liberals to create a fear of right-wing views.""


Looks just as valid to me .[/quote]

No it doesn't. In my original quote, there are two distinct views, "communist" and "liberal", which are being associated with each other by some people. "right-wing fundamentalist" is one view, ie. those holding strong right-wing views. I did not mean fundamentalist in a religious sense.

Plus, just because the "shuffled" statement is syntacticaly equivilent to the original quote does not automatically mean that it is valid.


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Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 09:55
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I havent read this entire thread (skipped around)... but Communism isnt bad.... in small numbers.

Works best in a small business where everyone does the same amount of work (ie. a family run business, or maybe a joint-[not marijuana]-business between friends).


Oh yeah, isnt canada a socialist/democratic country? I read that somewhere -- sounded like a good system by what they said.


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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 10:01
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Quote: "No it doesn't. In my original quote, there are two distinct views, "communist" and "liberal", which are being associated with each other by some people. "right-wing fundamentalist" is one view, ie. those holding strong right-wing views. I did not mean fundamentalist in a religious sense."


But the Communist=Liberal equivocation has happened soley here on Apollo, not the Bush site. It's simply implicity given, as you stated, that liberal is a bad thing; 'communist' is never mentioned. There's no third aspect there.

Quote: "Plus, just because the "shuffled" statement is syntacticaly equivilent to the original quote does not automatically mean that it is valid."


Which is why I felt it neccessary to put the comment there in the first place.

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The Real 87
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 16:48
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ok I will break the rule I made before and post again...

The reason that we call democrats communists is becase they belive in makeing lots of things universal (health care, minimum wage, walefare ect...). I equate them more to socialists tho because communists control business.

Although you could say that the growing number of regulations of business make them take control.

Simple put, yes democrats are modern day socialists.

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The Real 87
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 16:51
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@ zero no communism is not good even in small amounts. You should get what you earn, no more no less. A person should be able to choose their ocupation (communist dictators assign people their ocupations). and mostly nothing should be a hand out, everything should be earned.

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Ian T
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I have to say I find it a bit odd that so many people find the concept of living a lower-than-middle-class life with absolutely no way to improve their situation so wonderful. You're stuck with the same quality of life and the same government assigned manual labor for the rest of your life-- you're a complete slave to the system with no way to go up or down and very little choise in what you do with your life. The concept of capitalism, on the other hand, is complete freedom; you get what you work for and if you work hard, you'll make your life a lot better. Isn't that how it should be? Can someone explain why the first concept seems better than the second? Seems like a frigging nightmare to me

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Killswitch
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 23:10
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That is true if you are rich, but Communism is supposed to come about through a mass 'peasents revolt' as it were. The peasents are the repressed and extremly poor people that are inevitable in ay captialist system, to them everyone being equal would be a joy as their standard of living would increase. You have to remember that the poor out number the rich!

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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 23:41 Edited at: 29th Dec 2004 23:42
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Quote: "The concept of capitalism, on the other hand, is complete freedom; you get what you work for and if you work hard, you'll make your life a lot better. Isn't that how it should be?"


You implicitly assume that people who are poor are poor because they are lazy. This is obviously a logical fallacy.

In most countries, the USA in particular, there is what might be described as a "triangle of wealth". The top of the triangle is always going to be a lot smaller than the bottom. The aim I suppose is to shift the whole triangle up, but the USA is failing to do this. Poverty in America is pretty diabolical in some areas.

Quote: "I have to say I find it a bit odd that so many people find the concept of living a lower-than-middle-class life with absolutely no way to improve their situation so wonderful."


That is not the concept at all. The idea, as I understand it is that although nobody is fabulously wealthy, nobody is very poor either. People work to improve their community, rather than just themselves. I don't know whether this could ever work, and I don't know whether or not it is desireable.

If I were to point out a flaw in the communist idea I'd say that it inhibits the incentives and signals mechanism which makes capitalist economies work. This may lead to inefficient allocation of resources, which will ultimately lower the country's economic growth rate.


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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 02:05
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Quote: "That is true if you are rich"


No, it's true if you have any skill, any willingness to learn a skill, and any hope to profit from it. The assumption that if someone supports capitalism, they must be rich is both completely illogical (and untrue in my case) and somewhat (darkly) amusing-- tell that to the millions of people in China living like slaves, who would live better lives off of McDonalds' fare here.

Quote: "You implicitly assume that people who are poor are poor because they are lazy."


You put those words in my mouth.

Quote: "In most countries, the USA in particular, there is what might be described as a "triangle of wealth". The top of the triangle is always going to be a lot smaller than the bottom. The aim I suppose is to shift the whole triangle up, but the USA is failing to do this. Poverty in America is pretty diabolical in some areas. "


Because no system is perfect even when excecuted flawlessly, and capitalism in America is hampered by several things-- the government isn't holding large corperations accountable for crimes and actions they shouldn't be taking is probably the largest flaw, followed by the modern welfare system which traps the lower class in a certain way of life with no way of getting a job.

Quote: "That is not the concept at all. The idea, as I understand it is that although nobody is fabulously wealthy, nobody is very poor either."


The point still remains about government assigned labor and being trapped in the quality of life you've been born into. If someone intelligent and good-hearted who works hard and does their best at life is living just as well as a lazy slob who's willing to let everyone else make their life work for them, something is very wrong.

(And kindly don't take that as meaning I think all poor people must be lazy again, as I still haven't said it.)

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Rob K
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 04:51
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Quote: "You put those words in my mouth."


No it is implied in your original statement. You said:

Quote: "you get what you work for and if you work hard, you'll make your life a lot better."


Which implies that those who don't live "a lot better", are in that situation because they do not work hard.

Quote: "The point still remains about government assigned labor and being trapped in the quality of life you've been born into"


As I stated earlier, in a communist society, there is no "government" as such. Communism relies on a degree of goodwill, it assumes that people will be prepared to work together to improve their QoL as a community. I'm sure that you can see the flaw here.

Quote: "Because no system is perfect even when excecuted flawlessly, and capitalism in America is hampered by several things-- the government isn't holding large corperations accountable for crimes and actions they shouldn't be taking is probably the largest flaw, followed by the modern welfare system which traps the lower class in a certain way of life with no way of getting a job."


It has nothing to do with how well the system is executed. Capitalism is inevitably going to lead to a pyramid of wealth. Labour is a finite resource, some people have qualities which make them more valuble than others, so they will earn more because demand for them is higher. This is why Steve Ballmer [Microsoft CEO) earns a 6 or 7 figure salary, whilst most people earn a 5 figure salary.

Quote: "If someone intelligent and good-hearted who works hard and does their best at life is living just as well as a lazy slob who's willing to let everyone else make their life work for them, something is very wrong."


Your views seem a little contradictory here. You disagree with government intervention in people's lives (welfare scheme mentioned earlier) but in order to prevent "lazy slob[s]" living an easy life, government intervention would be required. Inheritance tax for example (I do not know whether you have that in America).


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Jeku
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 05:42
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People who say communism is hot are a little on the narrow-minded side of things In China during the 60's and 70's, the people were not allowed to go to University under Mao's law.

Not until the 80's were people even allowed to study what they wanted. Right now China may be technically communist, but in reality they're far from the likes of Cuba or North Korea. China has businesses in which anyone can start, and there is much profit that can be made. People are allowed to vote for their leader, and are able to speak their minds without being persecuted.

I know that there are historical cases (think Tiannemen Square) where people were killed because of their free speech. But in China you can speak freely, just not if you organize a huge crowd that opposes the government. Well here in Canada you can't grab a megaphone and march down the street declaring anti-homosexual, anti-life (pro abortion), or racist statements without being thrown in jail either.

China also gives people freedom of religion, except where there's a direct threat to the government (i.e. Fallon Gong or however you spell it). That's the same here in the West. You can't start a Muslim Terrorist cult and expect to be free from arrest.

Anyways, to make a long story short, communism doesn't work! Power to the people! *shakes fist*


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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 05:50
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Quote: "No it is implied in your original statement. You said:


Quote: "you get what you work for and if you work hard, you'll make your life a lot better."

Which implies that those who don't live "a lot better", are in that situation because they do not work hard."


No... see, I'm talking about the theory of an ideal capitalist system versus the theory of an ideal communist system. You're taking that comment about getting what you deserve and applying it to the real world-- similar fallacy to me applying arguments about the concept of an ideal communist system to modern China.

Quote: "It has nothing to do with how well the system is executed. Capitalism is inevitably going to lead to a pyramid of wealth."


I don't see how that has to happen. Things are really pretty decent job-wise in America right now compared to the rest of the world and its assorted governments; sort out the major issues we have and you've got it pretty damn good.

Quote: "Your views seem a little contradictory here. You disagree with government intervention in people's lives (welfare scheme mentioned earlier) but in order to prevent "lazy slob[s]" living an easy life, government intervention would be required. Inheritance tax for example (I do not know whether you have that in America)."


I don't think lazy slobs should be prevented, the government never has any business sticking their nose into peoples' lives-- but in a capitalist system it happens less often, and though you get trash(y individuals) like Paris Hilton going against that, it's not an across the board level system for workers and slackers alike. It'll never be perfect, life will always be unfair for some people, the important thing is to minimize that.

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Rob K
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 23:57
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Quote: " People who say communism is hot are a little on the narrow-minded side of things In China during the 60's and 70's, the people were not allowed to go to University under Mao's law. "


I don't think anyone here is saying that communism is theoretically a good idea. I'm not sure either way. What I am saying is that you cannot judge it by looking at China, as China does not fit Marx's definition of communism.

Quote: "Things are really pretty decent job-wise in America right now "


Judge for yourself...

http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?data_tool=latest_numbers&series_id=LNS14000000


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Ian T
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Posted: 31st Dec 2004 00:01
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Tax cuts always give the economy a serious hiccup, but pay off in the long run (examine unemployment rates in Raegan's first term, which was very rough, and second term, which was fantastic). And war of course takes its toll on the economy. I was refering to two things, actually; how the unemployment rate has been going down recently, and how even with it very high, we're still far better off than most other places in the world.

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empty
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Posted: 31st Dec 2004 03:20
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Quote: "Tax cuts always give the economy a serious hiccup"

Actually, usually they don't cause hiccups.

Quote: "examine unemployment rates in Raegan's first term, which was very rough, and second term, which was fantastic"

The situation in the US was completely different in the early 80s.
The current problem is that the US needs a more restrictive monetary policy. And it needs that sooner than later (that was one of Reagan's key points during his first term).


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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 31st Dec 2004 11:54
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Quote: "Democrats and liberals are NOT communists!"

How come we're not allowed to be communist?


jk

In all seriousness. I'm a democrat (not 18 yet, but that's what I'm probably going to register as). I believe in many things the democrats do, but also believe in things that the republicans do. We're sort of upper middle class, so I definitely like tax cuts. I'm Christian, not too found of abortion or divorce, but I don't think my beliefs should be forced on the whole country.

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Mattman
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Posted: 31st Dec 2004 12:52
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I'm liberatarian

*Feels alone*

Hi
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JeBuS
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Posted: 31st Dec 2004 13:03
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BCDP, that's pretty much what the majority of the US is like (though half or so obviously choose to go Rep instead of Dem). But, the ones who define the parties are the loud ones. So, you always find the obnoxious far right and left wing nuts.

Quote: "I don't think my beliefs should be forced on the whole country."


NEVER forget that.


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DarkSin
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Posted: 31st Dec 2004 16:50
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bah I say my word is law and the whole world should follow it...


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Chris K
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Posted: 31st Dec 2004 20:08
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I think Mouse saying that America is economically strong would be more believeable if the dollar wasn't in freefall.

51p? and 0.73 EUR?

About a year ago Dollar ==> Euro was 0.999997241
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Eric T
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Posted: 31st Dec 2004 20:16
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**EricT reads posts made**
**EricT Laughs at most of the posts**
**EricT gets back to reading the Al Franken book**
**EricT Laughs some more**

<Mouse> lag, d'you like "real" RPGs? : <drac_work> ... : <drac_work> isnt that an oxymoron : * Mouse slaps drac_work :
<Mouse> don't contradict me bitch
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