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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] The Wests generosity.

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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 18:26 Edited at: 29th Dec 2004 18:27
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Cost of Iraq War = $177m per day for US and several mil £ per day for UK.

Massive disaster in Asia - America gives $35m (douubled from $17.5m 'cus they oh so compasionate), UK gives £15m. It makes me so angry - anyone who thinks Bush/Blair have any compassion are very diluded.

Our governments have no compassion, show you are better help now.

http://www.redcross.org.uk/Campaign.asp?id=38543

This is a UK link, someone who knows link for other countries maybe you could post them please.


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adr
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 18:34 Edited at: 29th Dec 2004 18:35
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Labour is currently the best of a bad bunch (on this topic) - if the conservatives got in, then they'd cancel any current international development programmes.


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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 18:48
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I agree ADR this government is better than the alternative, but they still crap - we got a choice between red crap, blue smelly crap, and yellow useless jump on the popular band-wagon crap.


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Dave J
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 20:51
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The Australian donation link is found at:
https://www.redcross.org.au/Donations/onlineDonations.asp

No idea how much we've donated so far.


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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 22:46 Edited at: 29th Dec 2004 23:07
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I don't believe Bush has much control over how much is donated. It's not his branch

(Oh yeah, and out of curiosity, how much does the East donate when there's a huge disaster over here ?)

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Wiggett
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Posted: 29th Dec 2004 23:35
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Quote: " Cost of Iraq War = $177m per day for US and several mil £ per day for UK.

Massive disaster in Asia - America gives $35m (douubled from $17.5m 'cus they oh so compasionate), UK gives £15m. It makes me so angry - anyone who thinks Bush/Blair have any compassion are very diluded.
"


well maybe thats all they can safely afford, if they drop funding to the war their own people would be put at risk, would you rather they gave no money to help people? and besides if you're too much of a girl to fight sharks in your own home after a tidal wive you dont deserve money from me

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Aoneweb
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 00:09
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You may find that the donations mentioned above are only the beginning and both the UK & USA will give more help when asked, let’s not forget charities like the Red Cross that are taking donations to send relief.
You can’t send funds to disaster areas unless you know the extent of the disaster.
We should be proud that our countries are doing what they can, as for the corrupt UN; it’s all gone quiet over there.
Just one more thing, if we put as much effort into being proud of are counties as we do slagging them off, maybe the rest of the world would stop laughing at us.

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Ermes
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 00:20
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i see here in Italy people make donations from several different points, i think the same for the rest of the worlds.So it is impossible to have a final balance of how much money the west give to the disastred asia.

Mouse, how can people without money and food, make donations for the west when a big disaster happen??? come on, don't be so s.

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Major Payn
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 00:20
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Well Bush seems to say that the 35m is only the beginning, and that massive aid from the United states is to be expected. Might be a crock of Sh!T though.

Guns arn't the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arn't a problem anymore.
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Fallout
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 00:42
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Just chucking money at the problem isn't really going to any good, so it doesnt make any difference whether it's £15mil or £100mil. In the short term you need rescue teams, food aid and shelter etc. That doesnt cost much money at all. It'd take weeks to get £15mil of aid purchased, shipped and distributed.

Also, the fact that we've wasted so much money on the war will have an impact on how much money we can give away to countries in trouble. It's not really a case of "the war had x much, so we should give x much to this problem". It's more a case of "the war had x much, so now we have x much less to give to other problems".

It's all bush's fault!

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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 01:08
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Just makes me angry that we have such bakward priority.

@ Mouse

Quote: "(Oh yeah, and out of curiosity, how much does the East donate when there's a huge disaster over here ?)"


Thats a lovely right-wing attitude.


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Killswitch
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 01:18
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The USA makes one trillion dollars per year, when Bushes administration started they had a $1 trillion surplus of tax. That's enough to make everyone in the world a millionair.

They're in debt now.

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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 01:57 Edited at: 30th Dec 2004 01:57
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Quote: "Thats a lovely right-wing attitude."


In other words, don't ask, don't expect anything back, just keep pouring money?

Everyone should give money to help after these things happen... but it's all too often only the US and their allies that are held accountable for failing.

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JeBuS
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 02:18 Edited at: 30th Dec 2004 02:29
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We could always go back to the way we used to be, pre WW1. Isolationism, where we give nothing to anyone, and take care of ourselves only. That is a stance that is gaining followers here in the US. I personally don't agree with it, but, since the rest of the world doesn't appreciate what we do, I can see how it would be a popular idea to simply cut the rest of the world off, and let them flounder in their filth.

Some useful information:

.14% of GNP was given last year for foreign aid by the US (far below the 1% asked for by the UN)
$2.4 billion in food, cash, and humanitarian aid was given last year's disasters (40% of all relief funding by the entire world)
$24 billion was used for development of other nations.


Now that I think about it more, it's quite appealing to think that instead of giving this money away with no hope of it ever returning, we could keep it all to ourselves and lower taxes, or increase funding for schools, medicine, etc.

By the way, whoever said that $1 trillion surplus would make everyone in the world a millionare was wrong. It would give everyone in the world $125. That's right, One hundred and twenty-five dollars.


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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 02:25
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Isolationism, to some extent, is the only way to stop what some people fear is happening in the Middle East right now-- expansion. If we keep getting actively involved in other peoples' business, there's too much opportunity for power hungry types to abuse it. When the world is in danger (World War I&II) it's certainly important to join the good fight, but most other cases-- Vietnam, Korea, Iraq-- as just as (some of) those causes were, they almost always just end up hurting more people. As callous as it might sound, I think our founding fathers really had the right idea when they said we just had to let the rest of the world war away and try to quietly influence it towards peace instead of getting actively involved.

Not to mention there are a whole lot of people in our own country who aren't living too well.

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Jeku
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 02:33 Edited at: 30th Dec 2004 02:35
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Quote: "Thats a lovely right-wing attitude."


It's actually a very logical response.

Quote: "Our governments have no compassion, show you are better help now."


Oh dear, am I reading this correct? Which governments pour money into relief for any country in need? The richer countries always help out the poorer--- it's just people that must always place the blame on Bush for absolutely everything. So the answer is to give at least $177m/day to the countries needing relief, right?


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Major Payn
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 02:48
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The big guys are easy to pick on it seems. America is one of the leaders, if not the leader, in giving international aid, yet we get constant criticism for not giving enough? What we supposed to do, sacrifice our countrys roads, buildings, technology, education, and hospitols just so we can pour as much money we can into another country's misfortune as possible? No, the way aid works, is you give what you can, or what you think you can get away with.

Guns arn't the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arn't a problem anymore.
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Fallout
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 03:02
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The US gets a kick in the teeth from the media because in the scheme of 'how much can the US afford to give', the US government doesn't give that much. The overall sum might be the biggest, but there are other nations giving more to the ratio of their GNP as JeBuS mentioned. It kinda goes along the lines of the millionaire who gives $100 a week to charity is giving nothing compared to the 12 year old girl who gives $2 out of her $3 / week allowance to the same charity.

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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 03:14
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That's true-- but, right or wrong cause aside, the fact is we are fighting a war right now

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Ermes
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 04:02
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a war with who?

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bitJericho
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 04:09
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everybody knows...

a war against terro ... terro..

terror that is


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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 04:10
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Terrorists and militants in Iraq.

But of course it's technically 'police action'

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Ermes
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 04:12 Edited at: 30th Dec 2004 04:13
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ah, sorry i forget it. Ehm, i think it's better to don't write my opinions...

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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 04:23
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Quote: "So the answer is to give at least $177m/day to the countries needing relief, right?"


I didn't say that - I was complaining about priorities.

I was gonna get a new monitor in the new years sales, instead I'm giving the money to Red Cross. My priorities are in order.

It is my view that the strong should feel obliged to look after the weak, the rich should feel obliged to look after the poor - and before you shout "communist!", let me point out that I said 'should feel obliged to' not 'should be forced to' - I believe in freedom of choice also.


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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 04:28
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I agree.


You still haven't justified your little jab at me earlier in this post

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Major Payn
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 04:33
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Oh so the priority is for the government to turn it's back ont he american people, and the brave soldiers who are fighting in Iraq, and instead of giving them that new armor the desperatly need, lets go spend it all on disaster relief. I feel sorry for those people, but America is a country to, it has it's needs and well as painfull or as selfish as it may sound, sometimes you have to look out for yourself.

Guns arn't the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arn't a problem anymore.
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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 04:38
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@ Mouse

Nothing personal - sorry if I offended, I just didn't agree with your comment at all. Here have a


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Ermes
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 05:18
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no no, mouse have to much already!!

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Benjamin
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 05:28
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When the people in america decided to go to iraq to fight the war, they were deciding to go with WHAT THEY HAD. Notice the use of caps lock there.

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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 05:43
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Quote: "Nothing personal - sorry if I offended, I just didn't agree with your comment at all."


Nah, probably just me taking things too personally again . Cheers for the !

Quote: "no no, mouse have to much already!!"


Impossible

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The Real 87
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 05:48
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I think it is funny that asia got mad at us for not warning them, then the demanded that we help with rebuilding and saving people.

Wasn't it the democrats that said that the rest of the world was seperate from the US and that we should leave them alone, yet they b***h at us for not helping when some 3rd world countries get hit by a tsunami enough.

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Major Payn
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 05:52
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It's like getting mad at bill gates, for not giving you $10000 when a virus destroys your computer.

Guns arn't the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arn't a problem anymore.
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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 05:52 Edited at: 30th Dec 2004 05:53
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Quote: "Wasn't it the democrats that said that the rest of the world was seperate from the US and that we should leave them alone"


The DMC started posturing like that when the Iraq debate started, but it's really a classic libertarian-esque (right wing, politically) opinion, one which the importance of was greatly stressed by our founding fathers.

Quote: "It's like getting mad at bill gates, for not giving you $10000 when a virus destroys your computer."


I find it a little hard-- no, make that impossible-- to compare loss of documents with loss of life .

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Benjamin
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 05:56 Edited at: 30th Dec 2004 05:58
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Quote: "[quote]It's like getting mad at bill gates, for not giving you $10000 when a virus destroys your computer"
[/quote]
Let me team up with mouse to say YOUR AN IDIOT

EDIT: Hey, quote in quote

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Fallout
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 06:43
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There is a difference between leaving foreign countries alone to fight their own battles and leaving foreign countries alone to die. As developed and wealthy countries, we have to make a decision in each case.

Do we help save lives in countries torn up by civil wars or being exploited by a dictator? Yes or no? You have to think about each situation individually. Can it resolve itself? How many people will die? Can we actually make a difference, or will we make it worse?

When it comes to disasters in foreign countries, the answer to the question 'Do we help?' should always be yes - not because these countries have done something for us, but because they have innocent people that are dying. I think patriotism is terrible when it makes you distinquish between your civilians lives and another countries civilians lives. There are people in this thread who are indirectly saying "It's more important that our roads are surfaced than it is that 1000 people in asia are saved from disease."

If you have to go without in a few minor ways to save lives, then you should gladly make that sacrifice. I'm not talking about donating all your pay. Let your country cut public spending on your highways for example. A few more pot holes on everyones local roads in exchange for 100,000 lives in Asia sounds fair to me.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 07:13
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Quote: "A few more pot holes on everyones local roads in exchange for 100,000 lives in Asia sounds fair to me."


I just donated a 10th of my salary this month to Oxfam, specifically for this disaster relief. It's got nothing to do with how much my country is (or isn't) helping out. It's got nothing to do with "if a tsunami hit us, would the East help?" and nothing to do with "we're fighting a war, we have our own backs to look out for" - or any similar piss-poor lame excuses. I donated it because tens of thousands of people have died and thousands more will continue to die due to a natural disaster that this very same Earth I inhabit inflict ed upon them.

When something like this happens, you don't give in order to get something back. You give because you can, because your current way of life is something those people could have only ever dreamed about at the best of times, let alone now when their entire lives have been washed away and for thousands upon thousands, their entire families also. It's at times like this you shove your soap boxes where the sun don't shine and appreciate your life for a second, because at least you still have one.

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empty
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 07:19
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Well said.


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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 07:20
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Nicely put .

By the way, hope you're having a nice vacation from official TGC business!

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 07:24
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Indeed.. this wasn't official TGC business, I was just dismayed at some of the comments here.

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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 07:28
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Yeah-- naturally; I can't see a reason TGC can't use their own GD now and then.


I think it's a great thing to donate money to the disaster relief, though I'd feel rather a hypocrite to say I 'encouraged' it. For anyone who wants to know of an easy way to do so, just go to Google and check out the link on the bottom.

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Major Payn
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 07:34 Edited at: 30th Dec 2004 07:37
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Quote: "Quote: "
Quote: "It's like getting mad at bill gates, for not giving you $10000 when a virus destroys your computer"
"
Let me team up with mouse to say YOUR AN IDIOT

EDIT: Hey, quote in quote"


It's just a metaphore, the point I was trying to make, was that you cannot expect the big rich guy to hand you a huge sum of money, because you think they should. I think we need to give them all the help we can, and we are giving them alot.

Guns arn't the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arn't a problem anymore.
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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 07:52
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Quote: "the point I was trying to make, was that you cannot expect the big rich guy to hand you a huge sum of money, because you think they should."


If that's not reflecting on the tsunami situation, which the latter segment of the post implies, what the heck was it doing in this thread?

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Benjamin
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 07:57
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Its okay mouse, hes 'special'.

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Major Payn
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 09:38
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What are you calling me retarded now? Why? For expressing my views on things? The metaphore I gave is tied to the disaster because lets picture america as Bill gates, lets picture the rest of the world as the person who got whiped out by the virus, the person who got whiped out by the virus, The rich Bill gates gives the guy half of what the guy thought he wanted, and so he starts to call the Rich Bill gates stingy, and selfish. It is a similar situation to the disaster in southeast asia, they get whiped out by a wave, The USA immediatly dumbs money on the situation, but it was only a fraction of what the "rest of the world" wanted, and so they start complaining.

Guns arn't the problem, people are the problem, shoot all the people and guns arn't a problem anymore.
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SageTech
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 09:54
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o no! the United Nations is not apeased with the U.S.'s donations! we need to stop the war and its funding, let the terrorists come over here, and just give all our money to the east immiedietly!

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Mx5 kris
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 10:02
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yes, and then listen to all the liberal complianers, and go stop all wars. Stop any new violent games. Make bill gates pay 50000X taxes, increase all taxes, and more. I could go on, and on.


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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Dec 2004 10:10
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Before I throw a lock on this for going absolutely off topic, I can't resist pointing out that it's the conservative right that generally opposes violent video games.

Next time if you have a point to make try to avoid fallacies, incorrect statements and gross generalizations .

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 31st Dec 2004 19:59
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The dumbness of some of the posts in this thread astounds me. I'm leaving it locked before any more retarded comments force me to start erasing forum accounts for the sake of intelligent life everywhere.

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