Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

3 Dimensional Chat / [LOCKED] FPS Hands (question and possible model request)

Author
Message
adr
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st May 2003
Location: Job Centre
Posted: 30th Dec 2004 20:00 Edited at: 30th Dec 2004 21:56
Link
Quite some time ago, I modelled a rather cool hand. All was going well but then I hit a brick wall. Once I began to try and rig and animate the hand model around a gun, the creases, folds and crumples all started to show up. I originally modelled the hand in a "high-five" pose, which meant that those poor, old polies had to severely contort around the gun .... I understand that you can do things to make animating easier - what are these steps?

Has anyone ever modelled, textured, rigged and animated convincing hands? What's the trick? I deconstructed a Counter Strike hand and found that he'd actually modelled the hand in a gun holding position - therefore giving him a bit of a headstart Is this advisable? I suppose the downside is that you need to remodel and possibly re-UV (and therefore re-texture) your hands if they need to be in a drastically different position ...

I'm tempted to give in and pay someone to make me some hands

Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.

-----

edit: would vertex weighting (whatever it is) help the sharp creases when animating the model?


If I can't eat it, drink it , **** it or fire it, I'm not interested
Back to top
Profile PM Website
Vai mamar na pila
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Nov 2004
Location: Behind Your Behind
Posted: 30th Dec 2004 22:16 Edited at: 30th Dec 2004 22:20
Link
im sorry for my bad english, ill try to explain has i would do it, you first model the hand in a "high-five" position for uv mapping reasons, and then you deform it, unless its a low poly hand, those are modelled contourning the gun or similar pose, make special note to cut around adicional edges for the areas where the hand should bend, rigging a skin area model is called "skinning"(skin), has some times is confused for texturing, i often see people saying "can someone skin this model for me?" this is wrong, has they are refering to texturing, after the model is modelled , uvmaped, and skinned(not textured, althoug u can textre it buy this point but i wouldnt advise to because of uv stratching) you set the weight of the vertices that are supposed to bend, so that the deformation inst very drasticall, i cant explain you very well whats this bending stuff, just look at this picture:



i dont know if milkshape is able to do this, probably is, its standart feature in animation program, after this you splice a checker map on the model, rearrenge any uv faces if needed to eliminate stretching and youre all done, just start animatign at will.

hope i helped you and anyone with similar doubts, when i have time ill model some med-poly hands and rig/skin them for those of teh community can use them for free in any of your fpshooters, maybe by mid january ill have them done, im kind of busy right now, again, hope this helped

cheers and happy new year
Back to top
Profile PM
adr
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st May 2003
Location: Job Centre
Posted: 30th Dec 2004 22:32
Link
Quote: "you first model the hand in a "high-five" position for uv mapping reasons, and then you deform it"


When you say deform, do you mean I should deform it in the modelling program? I assume so, since you discuss "skinning" after that part...


If I can't eat it, drink it , **** it or fire it, I'm not interested
Back to top
Profile PM Website
Vai mamar na pila
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Nov 2004
Location: Behind Your Behind
Posted: 30th Dec 2004 22:36
Link
yes, when its already rigged. teh first frame aniamtion pose, thats what i meant.
Back to top
Profile PM
adr
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st May 2003
Location: Job Centre
Posted: 30th Dec 2004 22:50 Edited at: 30th Dec 2004 22:51
Link
D'oh ... I've just read your first post properly...

Quote: "unless its a low poly hand, those are modelled contourning the gun or similar pose"


It's a low poly hand. So you are suggesting that I model it around the gun in question ...

Excellent! I'll find my old hand and see what I can do ...


If I can't eat it, drink it , **** it or fire it, I'm not interested
Back to top
Profile PM Website
Shadow Robert
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 31st Dec 2004 09:02
Link
first wish to address a few things:

Quote: "rigging a skin area model is called "skinning"(skin), has some times is confused for texturing, i often see people saying "can someone skin this model for me?" this is wrong, has they are refering to texturing, after the model is modelled , uvmaped, and skinned(not textured, althoug u can textre it buy this point but i wouldnt advise to because of uv stratching) you set the weight of the vertices that are supposed to bend"


No that is NOT what Skinnning is. It is an EXTREMELY annoying term given to something by amature 3D Studio Max users, simply becuase Discreet never checked terminology when they created Max for Windows. (including Character Studio)

As such you have a generation of modellers using completely incorrect terminology, which is more than a lil annoying considering when you have to interview someone, they'll put down they know how to 'Skin' a Mesh; when infact they have not bloody clue what-so-friggin'-ever!

A pet peeve of mine is incorrect terminology.
You are either 'Rigging' a Mesh, which conserns matters of Animation, OR you are 'Skinning' a Mesh, which conserns matters of Mapping & Texturing.

Model -> Rig -> Skin (Map) -> Animate -> Skin (Texture)
That is the general pipeline you should take when developing a model from start to finish, because if there are animation programs you will find this out during the rigging process, that can be corrected prior to skinning. As it is a pain in the arse in most programs to go back and remap a model.

Anyways: back to the matter at hand.

In order to get your models to bend correctly it is a simple case of creating them and rigging them in a fashion that will allow them to bend realistically.

When you create your skeletons what you want to do is try to make sure your mesh is as level as it possibly can be.
Hands you generally keep in a 'relaxed' rather than extended pose. As this provides you with a more stable base, that will allow you to create the bones on a level area as opposed trying to shape them at angles. Remember the Orbit angle of the joints will be turned based on the previous joint, so you want everything to be as straight as possible.

If you feel around the joints in your hand, you'll notice where bones stick out shaping the hand. You've modelled or textured these, to provide the effect no doubt; especially as bones generally have little real impact on the mesh in terms of size.
Try to note where they are naturally on your own hand, as this will end up your pivot points and be where the joints need to be.

Next thing to remember is again back to your hand look at what areas that bone you are moving *actually* is affecting. If you notice it is only really the area it is at.

What you need to do is go from the 'tip' bone, and work you way backwards (well in Milkshape anyways)... Assigning all of the necessary vertices to the end bone, then assigning those vertices that will only be affected the next time..

This way you make sure the 'immediate' area is covered, but also you don't end up with *loose* vertices that aren't assigned. As it is hard to pick individual vertices in Milkshape without the plug-in aids. You'll want to do it how I've suggested for ease means.


When you look at your hand, again... joints should mimic the design your hand has to bend realistically. For the fingers you can get away with 2 Vertices on top and 2 Below; with a good texture works very nicely. For higher polygon hands just try to see how the hand is shaped. Unfortunately something animation cannot currently simulate correctly without some nicely advanced animation means is muscle contraction and relaxation. So you can't really simulate the bulge and flex properly. Nothing to really worry about though.


Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Vai mamar na pila
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Nov 2004
Location: Behind Your Behind
Posted: 31st Dec 2004 10:46
Link
Quote: "No that is NOT what Skinnning is. It is an EXTREMELY annoying term given to something by amature 3D Studio Max users"


http://www.digital-tutors.com/digital_tutors/product.php?prod=neex2

in this site you will find a very professional training dvd for maya, where you skin adn bind a character, they refer to skinning has to rig in max.

Quote: "given to something by amature 3D Studio Max users"


in max we use the terminology "rig", the concept "skinning" appeared in maya, not max, and it means teh same has "to rig" in max.
however nowadays its indefferent to use any of the words.



Quote: "As such you have a generation of modellers using completely incorrect terminology"


such has you.



Quote: "Model -> Rig -> Skin (Map) -> Animate -> Skin (Texture)"


some low poly artists refer to skinning has texturing, this incorrectness first appeared with unreal style games where they used to refer to the models textures, in this case humanoids, as "skins", becase thats in fact what they were, but a Professional does not were this terminology, because it is wrong.

lets get back to amateur a sec
Quote: "amature 3D Studio Max"
, has i am one, ive been correted about this matter by many 3d modelers , probably pros, at least i saw they work at 3dtotal forums (the ones who corrected me), ive seen u bragging but never saw anythign done by you.


Quote: "Model -> Rig -> Skin (Map) -> Animate -> Skin (Texture)"


also, i have double checked with 2 3d artist friends, and one is from this forums, and a very good one, better then me (yes raven, i know its easy to be a better modeller than me), and this pipeline is...........chebang "deeply wrong", why would you texture after animation ?? i mean.........do you put on your shoes before you put on your socks ?...........hmmmmmm....

now i understand why people aroudn here think you are an idiot.............because you are one.

friend of mine just wrote me this trhow msn


Quote: "rigging a skin area model is called "skinning"(skin), has some times is confused for texturing, i often see people saying "can someone skin this model for me?" this is wrong, has they are refering to texturing, after the model is modelled , uvmaped, and skinned(not textured, althoug u can textre it buy this point but i wouldnt advise to because of uv stratching) you set the weight of the vertices "


ho and raven, you can "pic" on my writing gaps all you want, because im not english.


dude, next time remember, when correcting someone, make sure is wrong first, or you end up makign a fool of yourself, just liek you did.
Back to top
Profile PM
Vai mamar na pila
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Nov 2004
Location: Behind Your Behind
Posted: 31st Dec 2004 10:57
Link
by the way, do you know cgtalk ? where all teh pros Hang aroud,

Quote: " CG Academy Releases DVD3 in Paul Neale's Rigging Series
Ok, good news, DVD3 of Paul Neale's Intermediated Rigging series has hit the shelves. Here is some info on it....

"In this DVD Paul deals with many of the aspects of skinning a character using 3dsmax's Skin modifier. Starting with weighting via envelopes Paul then moves on to build on this foundation with weight painting and blending. Further control is then added via muscle bones, skin deformers and springs for dynamic flexing of the Ogre's stomach...."

If you wish to order this DVD right now, please be aware that CGA will be away over the next couple of weeks (Christmas Holidays and all that). So any orders placed now will not be dispatched until at least the 10th of January next year, so please be patient if you order now...

here's the link to the page ..

http://www.cg-academy.net/pages/dvd...ermediate_3.htm"


yep, this dvd is from a real real real pro, and this dvd is all about skinning, and inside it, i dont see any reference on makign a texture or whatever, it teaches you how to rig(skin), see for yourself:

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=196082&highlight=skinning
Back to top
Profile PM
The Samurai
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Jul 2004
Location: San Angelo, Tx
Posted: 1st Jan 2005 02:40 Edited at: 1st Jan 2005 02:43
Link
i modeled a hand a while back (it was my first) but it's exceptable... although it's not animated it still fits on a gun....if you wanna see it there is a pic below:

polys 311



-Celsius Zero

http://www.geocities.com/gongware/
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Shadow Robert
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 1st Jan 2005 03:09
Link
Don't confuse what you've tried to look up with the subject at hand.

You've looked up the facts for CG Engineers.. fantastic, problem is you have forgotten that this is Game Terminology NOT CG Terminology. They are worlds apart!

Quote: "also, i have double checked with 2 3d artist friends, and one is from this forums, and a very good one, better then me (yes raven, i know its easy to be a better modeller than me), and this pipeline is...........chebang "deeply wrong", why would you texture after animation ?? i mean.........do you put on your shoes before you put on your socks ?...........hmmmmmm...."


Perhaps because it has nothing to do with that.

Step 1. Create Mesh
Step 2. Rig Mesh
Step 3. Skin (Map)
Step 4. Animate
Step 5. Skin (Texture)

Are you by any chance confusing what is going on here. You Map a model by Unwrapping the vertices, often onto a Checkered Image.. The Texture has no need to created by the 3D Artist at all to be honest, and in larger companies often isn't even the job of the Modeler / Animator. As such it is either done as Animation is being worked on or is done post-animation.

You will always come back later to add animations or such... but the MOST important aspect is to make sure that the Mesh will animate correctly prior to Skinning; there is no reason to make the actual texture until some basic animations are done. Particularly as once you've animated you may find areas that stretch in a way you don't want to, as such you can go back to your checkered version of the UV Map, alter it without having to go through painsteaking hours of Texture work all over again.

Textures are PURELY Pixel work.. God knows what you seem to believe it is. Doing it prior to animation is just senseless and means you can't change things if something doesn't look right. Saves one HELLOFA lot of work!

Quote: "by the way, do you know cgtalk ? where all teh pros Hang aroud"


I know of it, I was a Moderator when it first opened. I never visit anymore because now the amatures out-number the professionals 100:1.. and alot of people you may believe work Pro are often Freelancers who don't have a clue and can't get a steady 9-5 job doing this work because they're incapable of working with others without causing problems in the pipeline.

They might be Pro from thier own POV, but from mine and a number of other Full-Time Artists; alot of them don't know what they hell they're on about. What is even worse is alot of people there are trying to show off thier 'game art' but the whole bloody point in the site was to discuss Cinematic / Television Art development. As such you have a bastardisation of alot of work and terminology.

People believing that 5,000-10,000 polygons is 'low-polygon', and seriously having not bloody clue what an optimised pipeline is.. people who are creeping into the industry and forcing engine developers to improve thier code in order to offset the added processor demands of the artwork. F**king joke is what it is.

Try going to Polycount.com, perhaps you've heard of that place. ALOT of professionals hang there who actually work in the games industry. Rouge13 the main adminstrator in-fact has worked on a number of high profile games such-as Planetside as a World Modeller (same as what I'm doing right now)
Bobo the Seal, is perhaps *THE* best Texture Artist in the Industry right now.

I'll waste my time with CG Artists again, perhaps when that is the industry I am working in again.. for now I'd rather get my fact, information, etc.. on-the-job or from my peers.
CG Artists are NOT my peers, and I'll never consider someone who can make a 40,000 polygon mesh cage on NURBS 1x a low polygon modeller.

If you want to see my work, then there is nothing stopping you. There are a few peices on the forum. I've never shown of a great deal because of certain individuals.
Just because things use the same programs, don't mean they are done identically and use the same terms, because they don't.


Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Vai mamar na pila
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Nov 2004
Location: Behind Your Behind
Posted: 2nd Jan 2005 02:53
Link
Quote: "People believing that 5,000-10,000 polygons is 'low-polygon', and seriously having not bloody clue what an optimised pipeline is.. people who are creeping into the industry and forcing engine developers to improve thier code in order to offset the added processor demands of the artwork. F**king joke is what it is."


you are delusioning man, below 5000 polys nowdays is low poly, sega saturn times are long gone.


Quote: "Bobo the Seal"
, well, you surprised me when you invoked this name, he his indeed the best texturer and low poly modeler, damm you are right for once



Quote: "Try going to Polycount.com, perhaps you've heard of that place"


yep i lurke around that place soemtimes, nice tuts on what they call "skinning", but i can assrue you raven, althoug i must apologyze for my bad temper (in teh first post you did i toke your position has agressive towards me, this second does not reveal that)


Quote: "Just because things use the same programs, don't mean they are done identically and use the same terms, because they don't."


i dont know man, i have reasons to believe you are a worst artist then me, and a worst programmer, the problem is raven, you atack everyone, sayng they are wrong, when they arent, i only post when im 100% for sure im posting correct information (wich doesnt mean i cannot be wrong, but whne i am i admite it and correct it myself), you see man, i dont have anything against you, but i didnt liekd your "attack" at me in teh first post, in fact, why dont you once and for all show us that we are all wrong and that you are a great professional in whateaver you do, because i only believe that you are nothign more than a young frustated boy, why do you attack everyone ?

again, i shouldnt have respond to you in the same maners you did to me,

post soem work done buy you, i cant fin anything you did, prove me that you are not a frustaded kid, because you complain a lot, but you dont do nothing.........just talk talk talk, tlak WRONG, and dont d onothing, you remind me of politics
Back to top
Profile PM
The Samurai
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Jul 2004
Location: San Angelo, Tx
Posted: 2nd Jan 2005 05:39
Link
ouch

-Celsius Zero

http://www.geocities.com/gongware/
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
dark coder
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 6th Oct 2002
Location: Japan
Posted: 2nd Jan 2005 10:13
Link
@raven why in the hell would you animate a model before you skin(texture) it just makes no sence, as 1st off you have no guarantee your uv map is perfect maybe you could use some checkered grid but there could be some hard to see problems, the only advantage i can see in your pipeline is if you are working with a group of people ie a modeling team skinning team etc etc, then the workflow becomes more quicker but if your a one man modeler then your pipeline is inneficient unless of cource you want the untextured model ingame to test it or something but i believe it is better to have a finished model in a game rather than a unfinished one.


Back to top
Profile PM Email
UberTuba
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Oct 2002
Location: Brittania
Posted: 2nd Jan 2005 10:55
Link
you animate your model first, so that if there are problems animating, you can add and change polys in the mesh to account for these problems.
If however, you UV MAP* your model and then run into problems while animating and have to chnage the mesh, you will also have to re uv map and retexture your model.


*to avoid getting into this rather pointless argument

I'm Right and Reality is lying
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Shadow Robert
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 2nd Jan 2005 11:35
Link
Quote: "@raven why in the hell would you animate a model before you skin(texture) it just makes no sence, as 1st off you have no guarantee your uv map is perfect maybe you could use some checkered grid but there could be some hard to see problems, the only advantage i can see in your pipeline is if you are working with a group of people ie a modeling team skinning team etc etc, then the workflow becomes more quicker but if your a one man modeler then your pipeline is inneficient unless of cource you want the untextured model ingame to test it or something but i believe it is better to have a finished model in a game rather than a unfinished one"


The pipeline I've used for years has served me very well to save *alot* of time both solo and in a team.
A Checker pattern will *always* show you where your texture stretches, it doesn't matter what you do.. as Checkered images are simply Grids with alternating colours. From this you can quickly see where warping occurs.

I have often found I'll map something, and then texture it... only to find out that while animating it, the map stretches in places that I do not wish it to.. as such I have to remap it to suit, which won't affect the texture is the remapping is only minor; but often when you move something this means space must be compensated and you end up rearranging the entire map in order for everything to fit with the maximum amount of space.

If this occurs then you also have to completely remake the Texture, or at the very least rearrange it in such a way that can cause quality loss. Why risk hours of pixel work for a matter of seeing your model looking good while animating it? Seems totally irrational to me.

Quote: "you are delusioning man, below 5000 polys nowdays is low poly, sega saturn times are long gone."


Really? .. lets have a look at the titles on the market shall we?
Half-Life 2:

Low Mesh = 1,500
Medium Mesh = 3,000
High Mesh = 6,500

That's for the people models, most systems except pretty expensive high-end ones can only handle the Medium Range... while an X-Box version of HL2 is due... the models will all be running on Low Mesh.

Let's go for another example, something purely console based. How about a title I have access to right now.
Starfox Adventures, Fox McCloud is 3,500 polygons; most of the Dinosaurs in each area are between 2,500-4,000 polygons.

Oh I know here's a good one. Dead or Alive 3 for the X-Box, this machine can really push the polygons extremely; considering it is purely environments onf 2 fighters at any given time really.

Characters generally weight in at just under 6,500 polygons.

The fact is, 90% of the people on this site right now and a majority of other forums have no sodding clue what polycounts are viable for games.

When I'm making a game mesh... I consider 8,000 to be High Polygon, that is the limit for a general character, medium would be around 4,000ish and Low would be 2,000ish.

If you try and place a group of 4-5,000 polygon characters in a game like Starfox Adventures, in those environments with heavy use of shaders you are going to kill the speed quicker than a rabbit strapped to a nuclear bomb!

I mean Jesus what the hell do you think the hardware you using is actually capable of... Considering that even Unreal3, which runs at 15-20fps on STATE OF THE ART HARDWARE; only uses models that are 10,000 polygons.

You cannot think of just the models, but everything in the environments around them; Hell even Resident Evil only uses 8,500 polygons models and that uses almost exclusively 2D backgrounds!

Seriously, get a clue. Cause right now, you honestly don't have one.


Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
UberTuba
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Oct 2002
Location: Brittania
Posted: 2nd Jan 2005 12:01
Link
Beyond 3000 polygons it becomes near impossible to make out individual polygons, so i try to keep below that.
I think that using more that that number of polygons on a human models is pretty pointless, when you could use that proccessing power for shaders and physics, which improve the realism and feel of the game alot more.

I'm Right and Reality is lying
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Shadow Robert
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 2nd Jan 2005 12:28
Link
Yeah Uber, that is actually one of the biggest reasons why polycounts have been remaining around the same level.

If you take Doom3 for example, purely dependant on shaders.. to make sure it runs quickly enough each model had to be a reasonable number of Vertices.

You'll find with Shaders that Vertices are far more important than Triangles... because Shaders work on per vertex rather than per face. So if you had a screen of 100 cubes made in DBP, they'd all have 32 Vertices each, you'd find they'd run a simple bumpmap shader much slower than an optimised one of 8 vertices you export from milkshape.

So more and more artists are now not just having to mind the polygon count because engine can only render so many... but also now watching vertex counts. Total nightmare at times, Half-Life 2 appears to get around alot of problems with this by simply hiding objects it doesn't want to use.

While you can get alot more detail with more polygons, it is really the combination of everything. It still pays big if as an artist you can keep polygon counts as low as humanly possible.

This next generation hardware does double the processing power available.. however generally speaking it isn't needed for polygons but shaders. If I had a choice of an extra 100,000 polygons per scene or a Pixel 2.0 Field of Depth Shader... I'd choose the shader because it can add a more realistic feel.


Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
The Samurai
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 28th Jul 2004
Location: San Angelo, Tx
Posted: 2nd Jan 2005 12:29
Link
i agree (thinks to himself...usefull info...)

-Celsius Zero

http://www.geocities.com/gongware/
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Vai mamar na pila
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Nov 2004
Location: Behind Your Behind
Posted: 2nd Jan 2005 12:58
Link
Quote: "You cannot think of just the models, but everything in the environments around them; Hell even Resident Evil only uses 8,500 polygons models and that uses almost exclusively 2D backgrounds!"


this maked me laugh a lot, seriously, you are a clown right ? u are so funny, u should be workign in a circus.



Quote: "you are delusioning man, below 5000 polys nowdays is low poly,
sega saturn times are long gone."


Quote: "Really? .. lets have a look at the titles on the market shall we?
Half-Life 2:

Low Mesh = 1,500
Medium Mesh = 3,000
High Mesh = 6,500"


so you agree with me, bellow 5000 polys is low poly, did i said something wrong ? is it just me or you just did contradicted yourself ?

Quote: "
Let's go for another example, something purely console based. How about a title I have access to right now.
Starfox Adventures, Fox McCloud is 3,500 polygons; most of the Dinosaurs in each area are between 2,500-4,000 polygons.

Oh I know here's a good one. Dead or Alive 3 for the X-Box, this machine can really push the polygons extremely; considering it is purely environments onf 2 fighters at any given time really.

Characters generally weight in at just under 6,500 polygons."


all of this and teh others bellow, where did u get this info ? can u bakc up your arguments ? because im on an half life 2 mod and u could never be more worng when cncerning half life info you posted, must i aks for the mod team to subscribe dbforusm and post here just to put your @$$ where it belongs ? on the ground.


Quote: "This next generation hardware does double the processing power available.. however generally speaking it isn't needed for polygons but shaders. If I had a choice of an extra 100,000 polygons per scene or a Pixel 2.0 Field of Depth Shader... I'd choose the shader because it can add a more realistic feel."


hahahaha , men u are so funny.............and probably SINGLE...what an idiot.
Back to top
Profile PM
Eric T
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Apr 2003
Location: My location is where I am at this time.
Posted: 2nd Jan 2005 13:07 Edited at: 2nd Jan 2005 13:08
Link
http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?faq=source_mod_faq§ion=106159032409491000&question=106159098641972000

Ravens pretty much right on the HL2 poly count thing.

<Mouse> lag, d'you like "real" RPGs? : <drac_work> ... : <drac_work> isnt that an oxymoron : * Mouse slaps drac_work :
<Mouse> don't contradict me bitch
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
UberTuba
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Oct 2002
Location: Brittania
Posted: 2nd Jan 2005 19:43
Link
I have no idea where raven got his figures from, or if they are correct. However it is quite clear from valve that 5000 polys is high detail, as alyx, a character that is incredably detailed, uses 7500 polys on high graphics, and half-life is massively optimised.

And no, raven never contradicted himself. He said the 1,500 polys is low poly.

I'm Right and Reality is lying
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Shadow Robert
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 3rd Jan 2005 00:48
Link
Quote: "so you agree with me, bellow 5000 polys is low poly, did i said something wrong ? is it just me or you just did contradicted yourself ?"


What the f**k! I quite clearly stated that I firmly believe that 5,000 polygons is Medium-High Polygons. Something you reserve for small numbers of characters, in view..
Game model polycounts are all about budgeting the *ENTIRE* scene, not just about single models.

Quote: "this maked me laugh a lot, seriously, you are a clown right ? u are so funny, u should be workign in a circus."


Funny because right now you are making me wonder how someone can be so damn thick headed on the subject. If you want to know how I know the polycounts of what went into Resident Evil Zero / Remake, then you may want to go on to Softimage's website; and check the interview on the game where they asked why Capcom were using Softimage as thier tool for those projects.

Quote: "all of this and teh others bellow, where did u get this info ? can u bakc up your arguments ? because im on an half life 2 mod and u could never be more worng when cncerning half life info you posted, must i aks for the mod team to subscribe dbforusm and post here just to put your @$$ where it belongs ? on the ground."


Starfox Adventures, I know because I temp at the company that developed it.

Dead & Alive 3 was revealed in an interview on GameSpy & XBox.com because people wanted to know how much power the X-Box *really* had.

Half-Life 2 is from the actual model files themself, however Valve-Erc also has alot of development information; as does the Valve SDK.
I've seen alot of the Half-Life 2 Modifications, and all I can say is good luck on getting them working on current systems!

I'm kinda getting sick of someone who is obviously not listening. You try to get away with the 'low' polygon work you've done for this Half-Life 2 mod, I don't really care... Don't come crying like so many Quake3 teams did when the game you've developed only runs at a reasonable speed on top-end systems.

Half-Life 2 is optimised, however if you ever take the time to look at what happens to get playable gameplay on a relatively mid-range system like this one i'm using.

AthlonXP 2600+ / 512MB / GeForce 5700 Ultra
It runs HL2 on medium settings quite nicely.. put it into high settings, and my FPS drops to a crawl, and loading times end up being so long I can watch entire episodes of my favourite cartoons while it's loading!

People when Quake3 was originally released started putting in 2,500 polygon models, and wondering why it ment people required high-end systems; especially when they missed out the LODs models.
It never dawned on alot of model created and mod developers that the Quake3 weapons at most were 500polygons and the game models themselves were at most 1,100polygons... not to mention LODs that tried to half that value each time.

You can't simply take an engine and expect it to perform how you believe it to. A *good* artist can do more with 2,000 polygons, than a bad one can with 10,000 polygons... There is ALWAYS room for improvement in development, and the lower you can get the counts without loss of detail, the game will look just as good; but run quicker and smoother or eleviate more processing power for things like Physics or more intelligent AI.

bah! well anyways i give up.. you think what you want. I know what I know, and if you don't want to accept that then fine. Just going to start trouble each time you try to act like you know what your doing and talk about.


Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
UberTuba
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Oct 2002
Location: Brittania
Posted: 3rd Jan 2005 04:32
Link
ps. adr, sorry for stealing the thread

I'm Right and Reality is lying
Back to top
Profile PM Email
AlecM
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Concord, MA
Posted: 3rd Jan 2005 10:52 Edited at: 3rd Jan 2005 10:53
Link
Triangle counts aren't really important anyway. It's vertex counts after smoothing and materials splits that are important.

I can't believe you guys are arguing about what is considered low poly. What a waste of time.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
ionstream
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 4th Jul 2004
Location: Overweb
Posted: 3rd Jan 2005 10:54
Link
Quote: "hahahaha , men u are so funny.............and probably SINGLE...what an idiot."


Um, do you mean "man" or are you making fun of all men?

At any rate, Raven wins.


Back to top
Profile PM Website
Shadow Robert
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 3rd Jan 2005 12:35
Link
Quote: "Triangle counts aren't really important anyway. It's vertex counts after smoothing and materials splits that are important.

I can't believe you guys are arguing about what is considered low poly. What a waste of time."


o_0 you of all people should understand the importance of what was being said.. very odd statements indeed.


Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Dr Evil
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Nov 2003
Location: Evil Lair
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 10:35 Edited at: 4th Jan 2005 10:56
Link
here you can use this if you want to. i just made it. and it is like 912 tris. shouldn't be too high poly if it is the fps hand.
Back to top
Profile PM
AlecM
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Concord, MA
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 11:18 Edited at: 4th Jan 2005 11:26
Link
Raven, you're so pathetic. You talk about interviewing people like you have been an art director. Where is your resume? In all the years I have seen you mention working for this or that company I have never seen so much as a portfolio or resume. We are graced by the occasional mediocre WIP image of something you never really finish. Where's all your work?

You would think that in the 5 years I have seen you post on darkbasic forums you would have grown up a little.

I wish Rich would ban you like Guy Savoie did.. We wouldn't have to be subjected to any more of your amazingly long and convoluted replies that go nowhere.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Dr Evil
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Nov 2003
Location: Evil Lair
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 11:38
Link
here's a texture for the hand. hope you guys don't bust on it too hard. i only had a half hour to spend on it.
Back to top
Profile PM
AlecM
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Concord, MA
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 11:43
Link
looking pretty good. Do you have a digital camera? If not you might barrow someones and try to take some photos of the top and botom of your hands under really diffuse lighting conditions. Overcast sky with snow on the ground is pretty good. UVs for hands can pretty much just be planar maps with the streaching on the sides of the fingers fixed.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Shadow Robert
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 13:18
Link
So, you respond to what I said with a defensive response? .. again this is quite odd behaviour.

Quote: "Where is your resume?"

On a Hard Disk here, plus I have a few printed out copies cause I was checking the design the other day. Why?

Quote: "all the years I have seen you mention working for this or that company I have never seen so much as a portfolio or resume."


Did I ever apply to a job where you were heading up the Human Resources department? If not then I don't see what your getting at.

Quote: "We are graced by the occasional mediocre WIP image of something you never really finish."


I believe that my finished work on this forum outnumbers my WIPs about 4:1. That said I've not shown anything for over 2years, for quite obvious reasons to those who were around this forum in early 2003.

Quote: "Where's all your work?"

Depends what work your refering to doesn't it?
Alot of people have seen my work on here, just because you haven't could be for any number of reason.

I don't have a website with my resume online, because well... it seems pretty pointless. I mean all it would be used for is showing off work I've done to people like around here or something, what the hell do I care about spending bloody days trying to make yet another internet thingiemajig page just to show off work to people that would never need my services on a paid basis?
Or rather they couldn't afford my services on a paid basis, as such I work for free for alot of people. My free time can do what I like with it really, if i felt like comming over toy our house and slapping you with a wet kipper i could. That said I'd have to goto Concord and I'm not so fond of the state it's in.

I don't have a portfolio online, because.. well pretty much the same reason as above.

So what exactly does it matter again that you've seen the stuff I've done?


Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
AlecM
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Concord, MA
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 13:28 Edited at: 4th Jan 2005 13:33
Link
I was around these forums in 2003 and it's not obvious to me.

Defensive? The thread isn't even about me or anything I have done. I just think it's funny that your still as big of a dick as you have always been.

Raven, I have been around the DB forums longer than you and I know you almost never post work. You have claimed to work for several companies including westwood and you constantly reference professional experience when you have none.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Shadow Robert
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 13:39
Link
Quote: "Defensive? The thread isn't even about me or anything I have done. I just think it's funny that your still as big of a dick as you have always been."


Never said it was, I said your response was defensive. just like that one

Quote: "Raven, I have been around the DB forums longer than you and I know you almost never post work. You have claimed to work for several companies including westwood and you constantly reference professional experience when you have none."


I see...
So your calling me names, yet; you have no proof. When I said a comment you made was odd considering your experience, you blow up on me.

Touchy nerves given, you didn't answer my question.. simply reiterated what you were accusing before.


Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
AlecM
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Concord, MA
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 13:40 Edited at: 4th Jan 2005 13:45
Link
You make me sound like I'm upset or angry. All I'm saying is put up or shut up.

Oh, and just to clarify. Triangle counts are not important. It is vertex counts after material and smoothing splits. Heres an article that was in GD mag that can clear that up for you:

http://www.ericchadwick.com/examples/provost/byf2.html

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Shadow Robert
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 13:49 Edited at: 4th Jan 2005 13:59
Link
didn't say anything of the sort, just making notes on things.
you never once said to put up work or keep my mouth shut, you were accusing me.

i don't have to show you my resume, or my portfolio. if i choose to release work i have done into this forum (which there are a number of finished peices currently shown and some downloadable), then that is my parogative isn't it?

so really speaking, what your asking for is proof of something that quite frankly I never share with anyone except prospective employers. unless you can provide me with a better deal that the company i am in talks with to move onto a full-time position with.. well then you can stay without that stuff.

i consider my work personal, and if you don't believe me on this there are a number of people on the forum who know me quite closely and you can ask them how often I have ever shown them work intended for a job. so you have a choice of trying to review work you find of mine on here, bowing out of this yourself, or sitting and waiting until i choose to release something else to show.

totally upto you, anyway you look at it your sitting on your arse doing nothing but waiting really.

[edit]
See this is exactly what I ment by an Odd comment.
I'd suggest *STRONGLY* you reread the material you provided for me.. It coveres one hell of alot more than just Vertices and the importance of them in the pipeline.

It does demonstrate the importance they have in the pipeline, and that they are alot more important than people believe them to be. It doesn't however cover the fact that over 50% of rendering time is taken up by the triangle full rate.

Just because it isn't covered does NOT mean it isn't also important, it was mentioned. Just not covered. Seriously didn't your engine programmers or Senior Artists ever talk to you about the pipeline maintainance?


Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
AlecM
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Concord, MA
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 13:54
Link
I just scanned the 3d board for 20 pages and couldn't find a single post by you.
Quote: "you never once said to put up work or keep my mouth shut, you were accusing me."


I'm sorry you didn't see it that way. Well I am saying it now, put up or shut up. If your work is so personal, how can you possibly work on a game that is going to be published?

Can another oldie who has been around since early DBC back me up on this? Cmon, I know GuyS agreed with me.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
AlecM
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Concord, MA
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 13:59 Edited at: 4th Jan 2005 14:01
Link
Quote: "i consider my work personal, and if you don't believe me on this there are a number of people on the forum who know me quite closely and you can ask them how often I have ever shown them work intended for a job."


Oh, and getting some nub to agree with you doesn't mean anything. You have always had a following of noobs to stroke your ego and agree with you on anything you say.

Anyway, this is getting silly. I don't really give a damn about any of this but when I see you acting that arogant I have a pretty strong tempetion to knock you down a peg.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Shadow Robert
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 14:03
Link
Quote: "Oh, and getting some nub to agree with you doesn't mean anything. You have always had a following of noobs to stroke your ego and agree with you on almost anything."


Really? .. wow I wonder when I started actually liking newbies.


Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
AlecM
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Concord, MA
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 14:11
Link
This is a boat load of fun. I hope there are some other people on the forums enjoying this too.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Dr Evil
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Nov 2003
Location: Evil Lair
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 14:35
Link
did anyone try the texture on the hand i made?? it doesn't work. i accidentally posted the unvumapped version of the hand so the texture is useless untill i upload the proper hand next monday when i'm back at the college i'm working at. or until i uv map this one(since i didn't bring home the finished one). oh well if you want to uv map this one and use it go ahead.
Back to top
Profile PM
AlecM
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Concord, MA
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 14:44
Link
oh, sorry to derail your thread and all. I will stop posting stuff thats not directly related.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
SiN
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 7th Jan 2004
Location:
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 14:48
Link
Quote: "This is a boat load of fun. I hope there are some other people on the forums enjoying this too."


i know i am


Listen Raven, heres what i THINK Alec is trying to say. If you give out advice, u need to be a credible source. If you're not credible, than you wouldn't really be helping the person, you'd be slowing them down. Now, anyone (including me) could sign on to a message board and talk alot of garbage, and who knows ... it may make sense, it may not. The one way to definitly show that you know what you're on about, is to show you're a credible source, and in order to do that, you need to show that you've done stuff, not that you can talk.

So far, over the many, MANY years we've all been here, we've only heard you talk, and haven't seen much of what you've done. Thus the cynical-ness around what you say.

Makes sense, no?


SiN
Back to top
Profile PM
AlecM
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Concord, MA
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 14:49 Edited at: 4th Jan 2005 15:04
Link
there we go. That made good sense. Why couldn't I just do that?

Oh wait, I think I did.

Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Van B
Moderator
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 17:10
Link
I think Quake modders were partly to blame for the skinning/rigging confusion, they started calling their replacement textures 'skins', which does make sense if your not a modeller.

I have to agree with Raven on his points (without trawling through all the off-topic stuff) - that's basically the route I take, although I'm more likely to draw the texture before animating, I like to see how it'll actually look while I animate.

The last time I made hands, they were a pain to rig and animate - especially the thumb. I was a little lazy, and started with a flat out hand, so the polycount is good, and it's a reasonable mesh, but animating it takes ages and I'm never sure of angles etc. Next time I'll probably try and put the polygon creases where they are on a real hand, and also spend more time on the thumb. Smooth vertices might make your hand look a bit strange, especially if you've only got 4 or 5 verts at a joint - save that for high poly areas like the wrist - most fingers won't stand for smooth verts over such a small area.

Ohh, quick tip - I suggest having each gun as a seperate animated .X file with the arms included, then changing guns is a lot easier, because you only have to worry about 1 object at a time. You can really optimise your poses as well that way, for example I just added a shotgun to my FPS, and to get the pose right, I had to rotate the shoulders to give the left arm more reach - as complete mesh that was fairly easy, with seperate meshes it would have been a lot more difficult.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Manic
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: Completely off my face...
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 18:21
Link
Raven, seriously why do expect people to take you seriously when you refuse to prove yourself?

i expect your response to that would be something along the lines of "I don't have to prove myself to you", well tell you what, i think you do, i've posted more of my work on the internet than you seem to have, which in this day and age would seem to prove I've done more work than you. How can you possibly be a new media artist, without using the internet. Moreover, how on earth do your employers find out about you? I presume that you must send your mythical portfolio to them, which must be a thrilling read.

one other thing, if you're working SO hard on making all these models for big game companys (still waiting to see one), how do you find time to post your rather epically proportioned responses?

Manic

PS.is your real name Derek Smart?

just wondering...

I don't have a sig, live with it.
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Van B
Moderator
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 18:26
Link
Derek Smart sounds familiar, not Raven though. I think I might have gotten emails from him, but I can't remember who he is on the forums.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Manic
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 27th Aug 2002
Location: Completely off my face...
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 20:43
Link
you probally wouldn't have got an email from THE derek smart, unless you hated battlecruiser 3000AD, and told him.

derek smart is quite similar to raven, he made all sorts of stupid claims that couldn't be backed up and simply weren't true. Such as claiming that he had a pHd from a top american university, and then people found out that the university had never heard of him.

read up on the man... the legend here.

http://www.werewolves.org/~follies/

and then have a look at this video that somethingawful.com made to take the piss.

http://www.somethingawful.com/download/movies/sa/desktop-commander.wmv

manic

I don't have a sig, live with it.
Back to top
Profile PM Email Website
Van B
Moderator
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 20:49
Link
Ahhh! - I knew it was familiar, he's that crazy programmer who had that massive flame war with all his customers . I'll check out that video later, I think I was getting him confused with David Smith or something (I think that's Indi).


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
adr
23
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 21st May 2003
Location: Job Centre
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 20:54
Link
Uhh - cheers everyone who posted constructively.

I think I'm going to have to remodel the hands if we're honest. Although they look good in the default pose, they're no good for deforming around a weapon. I tried last night and it just looked awful. Then again, I got distracted with another possible game idea.

VanB > If I were to actually try and get this done, then I'd end up doing it as you said - makes the most sense.

Dr Evil > I'll have a bash with your hand tonight.... uhh, so to speak.


If I can't eat it, drink it , **** it or fire it, I'm not interested
Back to top
Profile PM Website
Dr Evil
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 3rd Nov 2003
Location: Evil Lair
Posted: 4th Jan 2005 22:31
Link
Quote: "I think I'm going to have to remodel the hands if we're honest. Although they look good in the default pose, they're no good for deforming around a weapon. "

Was it my hand you were talking about there?if so I think if you do some careful skinning it might work out.
I wouldn't mind getting it to work for you if you could give me a copy of the gun you want to use.
Back to top
Profile PM
Back to top

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2026-07-10 01:29:36
Your offset time is: 2026-07-10 01:29:36