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FPSC Classic Product Chat / FPSC shaders into DBPro

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Philip
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Posted: 5th Jan 2005 07:20
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I remember a while back Lee mentioned that he hoped that the shaders used in FPSC could be incorporated into DBPro. In other words, they could be loaded into DBPro without having to mess about with the *.fx files, etc.

Does anyone know if this is still the intention? It'd be great if it was. It'd give all of us who buy FPSC an automatic bank of shaders to use in our DBPro games.

Philip

What do you mean, bears aren't supposed to wear hats and a tie? P3.2ghz / 1 gig / GeForce FX 5900 128meg / WinXP home
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David T
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Posted: 5th Jan 2005 21:16 Edited at: 5th Jan 2005 21:16
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[edit - misread question ]

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SoulMan
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Posted: 6th Jan 2005 02:39
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No. FPSCreator will use .FX files. You have to watch the Interview Movie from the magazine Issue #22. He explains that to achieve shaders it would be using the microsoft standard .FX files. Now if you need to create said shaders you can download Rendermonkey if you have an ATI Card and Nvidia Shader Program if you have a Nvidia Card. That way you can develop with whatever is best for the video card you have. Each program should produce the same standard .FX file to use in your game.
SoulMan

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David T
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Posted: 6th Jan 2005 03:00
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Philip asked if we could use the .fx files with dbpro seamlessly?

It does come with fx files for use in FPSC, I just don't know whether they will work with dbpro.

Get 15 new commands, all the date / time commands left out of DBPro for free!
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Cloud of Crows Studios
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Posted: 6th Jan 2005 03:34
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So does that mean the FX files will render the same no matter what kind of card a user has? Or will some .fx files display only in ATI and some in Nvidia? (i.e. is it a generic format supported by many common 3D cards?)

Thx!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 6th Jan 2005 03:39
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Quote: "Now if you need to create said shaders you can download Rendermonkey if you have an ATI Card and Nvidia Shader Program if you have a Nvidia Card."


RenderMonkey outputs (garbled) ATi *only* Shaders. Both cards can use it without problem though (which is quite quite odd!)

FX Composer outputs Microsoft HLSL Shaders. Can be used on both cards, however it has a problem using non-NVIDIA and non-Shader 2.0 cards. Can be a problem development wise if you own another brand.

R/T Shader outputs Microsoft HLSL, SGI GLSL Shaders. Can be used on all cards. Runs on all cards. Problem is it's $5,000. It has a bloody awesome UI though.

As for the original question:
Yes, as FPSC has the ability to output DBPro Code. Or atleast the final version should be able to. As such you can simply take the code you need and the plug'n'play the Shaders.

This said from my understanding the Shaders used are just those that were available to the DBPro Beta Testers. Then again I'm not testing it so I can only go on rumours really.


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David T
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Posted: 6th Jan 2005 03:39
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I think it's a generic directx thing - so as long as your card supports shaders they should be the same.

Get 15 new commands, all the date / time commands left out of DBPro for free!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 6th Jan 2005 03:44
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Quote: "I think it's a generic directx thing - so as long as your card supports shaders they should be the same."


The HLSL Specification is Microsoft DirectX Compliancy Requirement.
While all Shader cards using the Specifications are capable of using them to exact specifications, each of them have 'optimisation' routines that are specific to each card.

While NVIDIA has these, they don't force them upon developers unlike ATi. The response of this was ATi said that if Cg doesn't support thier cards, then why should they support NVIDIA's.

Problem with that statement is that Cg works on ATi cards identically to NVIDIA ones, just doesn't support the ATi specific Shader modes, like 1.4 and 2.0b. This is actually a pain to be honest given 1.4 is a very good format providing the speed of 1.1 but a limited number of 2.0 features. Makes it a perfect format for low-end Shader 2.0 cards that can't use 2.0 at a decent speed.

Just one more thing for developers to be warey of really.


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SoulMan
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Posted: 6th Jan 2005 06:28
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Raven are you sure about that.
I was reading on the website for Rendermonkey that it supports Microsoft HLSL. Now if that is not the case then forget ATI. I'll go pick up a nice 6800 card and use that.
SoulMan

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 6th Jan 2005 06:54
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Quote: "Raven are you sure about that.
I was reading on the website for Rendermonkey that it supports Microsoft HLSL. Now if that is not the case then forget ATI. I'll go pick up a nice 6800 card and use that."


What RenderMonkey exports doesn't work without editing for NVIDIA cards, I can almost guarentee you with that. I had to HEAVILY edit the examples to get them to work with both my FX and 6-Series cards.

ATi leave out alot of things that their cards will do and optimise inline. NVIDIA cards require you to make sure your using the format to the letter.

If you want an example of this.. run this site through Explorer (ATI) and then through Mozilla (NVIDIA).
That's your real-world example really... ATi cards love to fill-in-the-blanks with seriously optimised routine lines. Just another wonderful thoughtful integration of the Catalyst drivers.

While this makes using a Radeon and developing for them a 'dream' so-to-speak, it also means that when you come to develop for any other card, you end up having to reprogram the shader almost entirely. As such NVIDIA cards have been lent the title of being the most difficult, problem is they're the ones using the HLSL/GLSL formats to the letter, ATi aren't. Still in developer eyes chalk another one to ATi.


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Rob K
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Posted: 6th Jan 2005 07:45
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Quote: "If you want an example of this.. run this site through Explorer (ATI) and then through Mozilla (NVIDIA)."


Why would developers write application-specific code for a 2D application? Last time I checked, FireFox didn't have much in the way of normal mapping, stencil shadows or high dynamic range lighting. I haven't seen any cubemapped fresnel-modulating water shaders either.

Back to the original post, the FX shaders supplied with FPSC conform to the DirectX 9 HLSL specs, and are not optimised for any specific graphics card or brand as far as I am aware.


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SoulMan
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Posted: 6th Jan 2005 11:23
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Rob,
What I am getting at is developing FX shaders on my own. I've said in a few posts that while I like the idea that TGC is including media and I might use them to get a feel for the program, I will eventually start working on my own media when developing games. That includes shaders and I was talking about the two programs above when it comes to making them.
Now that I have heard a little more on the subject what I think will be next in order would be for me to buy a nvidia card. The 9800 Pro was fun but I think that somone else here in my home could get a little mroe use out of it. I need something with power.
SoulMan

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 6th Jan 2005 12:24
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Quote: "Why would developers write application-specific code for a 2D application? Last time I checked, FireFox didn't have much in the way of normal mapping, stencil shadows or high dynamic range lighting. I haven't seen any cubemapped fresnel-modulating water shaders either. "


oh, my sides are split-ting. You are SO funny.

Anyways, yeah as far as the cards goes for development means. I hope you got my point on the matter

It's not often I'll use Mozilla as an example of something that's good but for development-means, if it works in Mozilla it works in anything. Provided your keeping to the Specifications set by the independant body.

In this case it would be the Microsoft. I think the added bonus with this selection of cards, is the fact that in terms of power. They are pretty much equal, meaning for real-time gaming it makes no odds. So it comes more down to the technical features, in which the GeForce 6-Series hands it's competitors ass back to it on a platter.

I've found compiling Microsoft Windows Media Format 9 Videos to be almost R/T. You can seperate the two meaning, you can take videos in R/T without giving a gameplay hit.

Shaders run according to the specifications set, meaning the development of them is more multicard rather than needing several versions all slightly different.

FX Composer 1.6 actually comes with an optimisation tutorial project, I think it shows quite well how to make the most out of your shader development.

It also enables you faster Model / World development as under OpenGL (something most 3D Packages use) it is capable of standing it's ground with ATi's FireGL Series.

NVIDIA does provide a nice stable development platform. It was the reason I chose the FX over the 9Series last time.


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Philip
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Posted: 6th Jan 2005 21:25
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Er, guys, I can't help thinking we've strayed from my original question.

Philip

What do you mean, bears aren't supposed to wear hats and a tie? P3.2ghz / 1 gig / GeForce FX 5900 128meg / WinXP home
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SoulMan
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Posted: 7th Jan 2005 02:11
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We really haven't strayed from the original question. FPSC uses .FX shaders. What Lee was probably talking about is creating levels using them and then loading those into Dark Basic Pro. Then you wouldn't have to mess around programming them, but then again you are stuck to just using what was provided. I would really suggest getting into writing .FX shaders. If you have a Nvidia card go download the Cg developer, if you have an ATI card go download Rendermonkey. Those are probably the easiest way to get into developing .FX shaders unless you want to use what is provided by TGC in the FPSCreator.
SoulMan

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Jan 2005 05:33
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Cg Developer? ... you sure your not thinking of something else, Cg you have to hard-code into your games, as it's something similar to HLSL.


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SoulMan
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Posted: 10th Jan 2005 06:18
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Raven,
I am talking about the .FX composer program. I may have miss called it, but the intent was the same. To make them at least aware of a program from Nvidia that creates .FX shaders.
SoulMan

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