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Geek Culture / Politics

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Jan 2003 04:24
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probably this'll catch a few immature eyes, but ho hum
i've actually been wondering about discussing some pretty good issues about politics ... problem is there aren't a great deal of UK people i know anymore - and those i do are very much well - they don't give a damn to be honest.

Well lets see now, there has been a post in the Applications area which kinda got to me on a personal level, but the points made are interesting in themselves.

Now there was a note that, that its our fault for the voted in party and thier actions of late leading to our people dieing for the United States cause.
On that note I'd like to first say i personally voted LibDem, which from my POV was the best government that i'd of liked to have seen in power because it would have set in motion the tax breaks and revenue so that my family could support themselves better - also they're campainge promises didn't sound as far fetched as either the Tories or the Conservitives...
And i was warn'd that there would be no point in voting for a party which everyone was feelin' they wanted but they wouldn't stand a chance of getting in ... but as you know i'm not one that if someone tells me something i'll roll over and do what everyone else does.
Atleast with one vote they were that one step closer to POSSIBLY getting in.

That Aside, the Tories were the second best option at the time for roughly the same reasons.
However over the past few years its been the misgiving that althought certain options have been promised constantly and talked about ... it appears that the PM thinks that as long as he throws that "smile" of his onto a sugar coated lie, people will believe it.

The current involvement with America's middle east operations however is a testiment to a fact that although the nation do not want a war the PM himself is far up Bush's ass that you need to send miners with tourchs just to find him!
And it isn't just the people who have voted him in which are piss'd off with this ... but the rest of his party have been grumbling for months that they're getting sick and tired of his kniving attitude.

With all the recent problems comming up, suchas the RailTrack inncidents, the enhanced police policies which are actually letting more crime go, the laps in government funding for REAL needs like the NHS and School revitalisation as well as the new Pension problems due to their "somewhat clever" idea of letting companies abolish thier pension funds and cut the costs without a claus which protects those who've been paying for years...
the upgrade of military and naval equippment and giving the contracts to inferior external economies that DON'T require the extra revenue.

:: lets out a big breath ::

well quite frankly, if people want to think that we believe that the UK is fantastic or something ... its far from bloody perfect - especially with that wide grinned sly as our PM, which i swear if he sits there and slowly weans in the Euro thinking that no one is paying attention i'm going to personally go down to 10 Downing Street and kick that buggers ass - because we are loosing ALOT of things which have made this country a great nation, and we're slowly loosing our international identity.

With the widdling of the Monarchy, if the Pound Sterling goes poof ... what the hell is left which is truely a national treasure? What the hell can we sit back and be proud that it is truely our own?

Atleast we would still have the Naval service, which is still the best in the world ... but as the next Aircraft carrier contract is going the the bloody french!!
Then its not really OUR naval forces is it, its going to really be thier man power!

Quite frankly alot about the UK makes me sick to think of ... but then the Blind misplaced patriotism that the US enstils within its people is far worse.
Because you feel the country is better than it actually is, and you can't seem to sit back and relise - it just sugar coated for your enjoyment and you're too hooked on that boost you get from being told you're fantastic that when the Real World comes around to slap you're face you can't handle it and fly off the deep end!

Personally if i had to pick the best country in the world i would go for Sweeden - but that just me
Anata aru kowagaru no watashi! http://members.lycos.co.uk/timesaga/ssj2.gif[/img]
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Easily Confused
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Posted: 15th Jan 2003 05:15
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Why do I sence a flame coming on. We don't need George Bush jr to start a war let Raven do it!

Politics, uurgh! (shuddering in chair) I hate politics and the 2 faced, backstabbing politians that goes with them.

Programming anything is an art, and you can't rush art.
Unless your name is Bob Ross, then you can do it in thirty minutes.
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Puffy
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Posted: 15th Jan 2003 05:44
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LOL gwb was not even starting his own damn war... hes a puppet for his father... o_O and its just to keep an eye away from what is happening in the us...

AMD Athlon XP 2100+ OC to 3Ghz/1.5gigs ram/128mb ti4200/120gigs hd/19" monitor/Sound Blaster Audigy Platinum EX/3072kbs Sat Con... I joined in!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Jan 2003 12:31
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Hehee... well might burst into spontanious flames, but isn't the nature thats intended.

Just want to rant a little outside of a post that was just really getting to me deeply. I'm not afriad of my opinions, even if they don't really conform to what everyone else feels is normal...
i dunno just seems like there are alot of people especially recently that do feel that i've been hyping up that the UK is great or whatever, but ya know anyone who lives here knows its a cool place - but hardly "great"

i've lived in several countries now, for a quite a while and been online for over a decade getting to see the plethera of people who come on and how they act.
And there is a myth in and with the American people (i know not all but adveragly) you'll notice they are blindly patriotic and i doubt they're even aware of the word.

I mean i remember being told that in thier highschools they usually have a flag in a classroom or two, and every so often you'd repeat the pledge of alligance.

now these are school children who don't even understand right from wrong fully actually making a promise, which although doesn't mean much to kids... means they're promising themselves to be completely loyal.
Now i don't know about you but tricking children to agree to things simply because everyone else does it at an age when they're not likely to understand what they've promised to ... ya know somehow i find that wrong.

The whole culture is about BEING multiculteral, and yet everywhere you look you're being taught extreme predudice against the sets and making stereo types of people all the time. Having them all live in thier own areas making people feel bad if they do happen to be in the wrong place.

i swear there are alot of things at the moment that are just getting to me more and more ... especially as like 9/10 guys i've met who are american born and bred, are all VERY stereotypical about anyone they meet, quite outragously offensive about things, mostly WAY too touchy feely when it comes to girls, and will talk hours about stuff they know bugger all about!
There was this one guy who actually sat there telling me how exactly he thinks i should do my job, because he had used Max for all of 5minutes but he knew EVERYTHING about.
So obviously the yank who didn't even know what a Vertex was, knew more than a guy who has been doing this all the time he has been able to work and is earning more figures than he's likely to see within his lifetime!

OH and god Cars... you EVER heard the adverage guy in the states talk about cars. I swear all he does is learn a few key phases and a few engine parts ... i think the funniest has to have been when i was again being told that all my car needed to sound better was get a lower emission carb and fill with some kinda oil (i don't bloody know)
now i'm not exactly a wizz with cars, buht i'm pretty sure the majority of the noise comes from body resinanse, the engine itself and the muffler|exhuast thing...
apart from that but my car purred like a kitten, something i'm personally fussy about - compaired to this guys truck which sounded like a sick warthog
unless he though my sports car needed to sound like a juggernaught lmao

i dunno ... it just it is amusing but at the same time it is DEEEPLY irratating for people to talk like that. Especially when you don't even freakin' know them!!
And the police in the States arn't as friendly either ... i mean whenever i was taken in, in the UK the police would ask me to accompany them, never even got cuffed.
Stateside they ask you your name **THUMP** you're on the side of a car with them not too gently yanking you hands back to cuff you!!
I swear i have a billion things i could say which drive me insane about the states - perhaps it might put some people in the real world...

You know today sound like the Tory party has convinced Tony Blair that it by far the best option to not take any action if the UN says not to ... which means our guys there are to be pulled back to the backup troops along. But more importantly doesn't look like we'll be going to war and be pulled back for once
The UN has never actively pushed for a conflict, and it is well known thier position on the Saddam thing.
Bush is just picking on him cause there is no one left - The guys might have Nukes and BioWeaps, but he don't look like he was or is likely to use them.

But cornering him into no choice, i mean WTF is up with that ... a sensible option would be to do training excesies in the area which would put off terrorists who'd want to get their hands on them - and keep the inspectors working by all means.
But as Saddam plays his games you know he is hiding something, and its best to treat it like you think he isn't and just playing along because whilst the pressure is on about them he won't sell them because it'd means trying to get them out in the public - and less defense IF a conflict did errupt.

Sometimes though you have to wonder where some of these government officials get thier military advice from. We all know the British PM DOESN'T get it from who he is suppose to cause our Minister of Defense has actively said there shouldn't even be a situation with Saddam.

well thats enough extra ranting for now

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Disco Stu
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Posted: 15th Jan 2003 12:41
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Hmm, deep RV. Much of what you say makes sense, and you are very courageous in saying it in such an open forum (though I doubt anyone will be offended and retaliate). Have you seen the video clip for Shoot the Dog by George Michael? That touches quite a few subjects mentioned here.

You should consider starting up a "DB Readers' Digest"...It could work
Sina.

"Maybe if you ain't so good, I ain't so bad."--Tony Manero to Stephanie (Karen Lynn Gorney)
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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 15th Jan 2003 13:11
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I notice you keep refering to Tony Blair as a member of torie party - he his Labour.
But its easy to make mistake - we used to have right wing Tories(Conservative), left wing Labour, and protest vote Lib Dems.
Now we have three parties who would do exactly the same as each other when in power - we are living attack of the clones.

We need Iraqs oil so we gonna go get it(Dictators with Nukes - we wouldn't allow it, ask Pakistan - Countries flouting international laws and not adhering to united nations resolutions - we wouldn't stand for it, ask Israel - Leaders authorising their military to launch chemical weapons at Kurdish villages - now thats just evil, ask Winston Churchill) and if you wanna protest about it then boycott the product. But I suspect we all prefer our cars to run, our electricity to work, than we prefer justice to prevail. So, after we invaded Iraq, put in a pro-western government, and secured a good deal for its oil, you can can protest about the fact that we get our energy to cheaply and the people of iraq are still suffering - or you can carry on being the sheep we have become and continue to blindly follow our leader to moral degregation.

Anyway in 500 million years the earth will be too hot to support any form of life - so don't worry.
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Soyuz
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Posted: 15th Jan 2003 13:54
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I got to say that I used to believe in politics but now I have the same opinion as Flash says. Whoever gets in to power will ultimately make the same mistakes and follow the same (wrong) paths. I believe there is much more to politics than we could ever appreciate and the party that gets in to power soon finds that however fantastic and ideal their visions they will ever increasingly be cut down to size.

What can a government really achieve? They are restricted from all directions by a budget that is more limited than we can appreciate - you put more cash in to one thing and another will suffer, then when it suffers everyone goes up in arms. It's a lose-lose situation for whoever is in power. I think Labour did a good job managing to make funds to pump in to the HNS and then everyone starts giving them a hard time about it - I mean WTF is with that?. If it were the Tories we'd probably have no NHS now!

The problem is that no government can give us everything we want, so it's a juggling process of doing what'll please the Tax Payer so they get voted in again - and let's face it, the public wants to pay less tax, and less tax = worse public services. It's all screwed up, there's got to be a better alternative to governement and democracy...and I'm not saying commmunism!

Got to say, a french manufacturer making british naval ships is wrong when we got naval building yards of our own sitting empty...and what did that come down to? They could probably do it cheaper than us! And I bet whoever was in power they would go for the cheaper option!
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Soyuz
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Posted: 15th Jan 2003 14:02
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Of course aother way to look at it is to look at what we do have compared to other countries. I'm pretty sure I'd rather live in the UK than Ethiopia for instance! So from this perspective we don't really have much to complain about. It's all relative - some guys in parts of the world worry about where the next meal is coming from and we worry about if petrol is going up by another penny - you can see why people in other parts of the world would think westerners are arrogant and selfish!
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Soyuz
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Posted: 15th Jan 2003 14:02
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ignorant and selfish
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 15th Jan 2003 20:04
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I agree mostly with Raven - and btw many ppl refer to Blair as a Tory in jest because of his seemingly identical behaviour I was so happy when Labour orriginally got in, imagining this big shake up, but not much has changed.

As 4 Bush he's just avenging his father and should never have got in in the first place - hardly anyone VOTED for him

And the "shoot the dog" video was funny But banned in most of the US! How stupid, in a land where they supposedly pride themselves on "free-speech"

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Rose
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Posted: 15th Jan 2003 21:30
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Poli means many

Tics = bloodsucking creatures

Put them together and .....

Heaven doesn't want me, and hell is afraid I'll take over!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Jan 2003 22:31
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Soyuz might seem ignorant and selfish for everyone to be bitching about alot like how the NHS is underfunded when there are like 3rd world countries dieing of little to no med care ... but at the end of the day, a 3rd world country has had the same level of technology for almost 2millennia - it isn't the fault of the Richer and technologically advanced culters to feel bad because THEY don't want to make these breakthroughs.

I mean look at Nigeria, that country is the largest exporter of Diamonds - which is a multimillion dollar industry. YET they throw the money into weaponry to go into thier civil war. WHY THE HELL should WE give them handouts because they're wasting all of thier money??

Why the hell should the UK constantly be paying out for 3rd world projects when we can't even afford our own people!
Where the sanity in taking care of foreigners first ... the the United States who is the richest power contributes about the same to third world development.

The government has given the latest ship contract to the French because the total cost NOW is cheaper.
But for a couple of million more, they can fill one of our shipyards for 4-5years which is 20,000 jobs atleast and almost almost double what they save in unemployment and such benifits.
This is the BIGGEST problem i have with our governments, they don't care about the problems for the future they only do what they fell for thier OWN benifit.
And as Labour can't even agree on what to do internally, what kind of confidence should that give us.

We we're promise MUCH larger changes - i mean the NHS is still DANGEROUSLY underpaid, but private companies like HSA and Bupa are too expensive for the everyday man. Add to this they don't even guarentee you a bed to be treated in WHICH is where the money must go right now. Making sure that we do have enough beds for everyone who needs treatment.

The railway is another PRIME example of how the government have just wasted GOOD money. They've constantly bailed out company after company - yet look at it... the companies are behind schedual they're charging us more, we're not on time much anymore, this is several million a week.
If they turned around to Raillink and said, "you've fucked up you're loosing too much so you're contract is over" and got a new company. There are more than enough business's that could take over OR even they could abolish this stupid privatiation and take it back under the government wing, where people arn't out to simply line thier OWN pockets.

They should be putting some money into Small Business's and respected business's to SHOW that its worth having plants for things suchas cars within the UK...
Large companies suchas Rover and Vaxhaul, the home grown companies which are cutting back daily SHOULD have tax breaks so they can afford to continue within out strong economy.

The government COULD have done alot more with the budget than they did ... its just poor planning for thier OWN future to be re-elected rather than the greater good of the nation as a whole. And by doing so SERIOUSLY fudged thier own chances for re-election.

But as the Conservetives policies are dead set against the poorer people (which there are now ALOT more of thanks to Labour) ya know looks like perhaps Lib Dem who actually had the more Labour manifest more so than Labour themselves, is likely to have thier chance...

as i said... i'm not going to feel bad that our nation has progress. also on the fact of the oil and coal etc, 80% of all the UK's fossel fuels are actually mined internally - and its likely our bills would go up on a boycott, but nothing too bad. Probably just see some more Nuclear powerplants, which stuff like that needs to be researched as we have between 50-100years left ... and just because our government can't look even 5years in the future doesn't mean the people shouldn't be looking at what kinda of country we want our children to grow up within.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Easily Confused
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Posted: 15th Jan 2003 23:05
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It's obvious that Bush is only targeting one thing, Saddam "I've got a big mustache" Hussein, regardless of Iraq's weapons status.

He doesn't give a damn what the U.N. inspectors may or may not find in the comming weeks or months, if they find nothing then he will find an excuse to go in there and take out Hussein's goverment.

It's likely to happen, otherwise all this military build up would be a hell of a waste of tax payers money if all the allied ships and planes were to turn around and come home without firing a single shot. If that happens, who wins? Not Bush jr that's for sure. I'm not saying they should leave Hussein alone, my concern is that alot of innocent people are going to get in the way, the same innocent people who would also like Hussein delt with.

A bit of a double edge sword for Bush isn't it? He has all this millitary build up promising to deal with Hussein and his followers, but, his popularity back home has dropped. And yet if he turns around now, it's Hussein who will be laughing at him. Yes, I can well imagine that he is talking to Bush senior for guidiance.

I think North Korea is a teeny weeny bit more of a problem, don't you?

Programming anything is an art, and you can't rush art.
Unless your name is Bob Ross, then you can do it in thirty minutes.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Jan 2003 23:16
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Yeah it is ... India is too if you look at whats happening, but they daren't touch them because it isn't common knowlage about whats happening.

It's pretty sneaky how NK decided whilst US's attention is in Iraq they'll start rearming for "defense" purposes.
lmao ... screwy world we're in eh

hey can someone explain something to me though... Bush is like pushing against Saddam to avenge his father right?
So what the hell did saddam do to him, cause i don't remember him doing anything exclusively towards the US or Bush Snr himself.

could just be me but someone who's still alive doesn't need avenging - cause they can do it themselves no?
i dunno lmao

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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empty
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Posted: 15th Jan 2003 23:46
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Quote: "
also they're campainge promises didn't sound as far fetched as either the Tories or the Conservitives...
"

Aha, there's a difference between the Torries and the Conservatives.

Quote: "
With the widdling of the Monarchy, if the Pound Sterling goes poof ... what the hell is left which is truely a national treasure? What the hell can we sit back and be proud that it is truely our own?
"

If I get this right, you think the monarchy and the sterling makes the UK?

And do you really think the UK will economically survive with a national currency in the long terms?

Ogres have layers.
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Soyuz
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Posted: 16th Jan 2003 00:57
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Well I got to say I was recently in Europe and I thought it was great to travel between Francs and Spain without having to change or buy additional currency. Hell if we had Euros in UK then you don't need to do it at all!

And what makes the UK any more special than France or Spain that we should stick to our nationalistic pride or nationalistic pound? Nationalistic sentiments are one of the ingredients that fuel hatred of other countries so if the UK having the EURO could help bring Europe a little closer together then I'm all for it.
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empty
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Posted: 16th Jan 2003 02:27
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I totally agree.

Ogres have layers.
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WarWolf
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Posted: 16th Jan 2003 16:17
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Having the same currency in all Europe would be great. BUT... The euro is not good at all. The currency is only a small part of it. When you enter EMU (European Money Union), then you have to leave all power of your own economy-politics to ECB (European Central Bank), which is a completely undemocratic instition, which delegates are actually FORBIDDEN by law (the EU law Maasstricht), to listen to what the european population thinks. The ECB's main task is to keep the inflation down (which also means keeping unoccupation up). In EMU, it is also illegal to have a budget dificit of more than 3% of BNP. This means that it is illegal to help your economy in bad times, which leads to mass-unoccupation. Germany is suffering from this law right now. They had severe floodings this summer, and they had to repair entire cities, and much of their infrastructure was destroyed. This led to that thay got a budget dificit of more than 3% of BNP, and now they have to pay large penalties because of this. The euro simply doesn't make sense!

AND if you compare the EMU-countries with the ones outside, the contries outside have got lower unoccupation and lower inflation. Both Sweden, UK and Denmark have got better economy than the EMU-participants.

I would really like to have a shared currency all over the world, but the euro simply doesn't make sense! It's undemocratic and bad for the people.

I didn't steal it!
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WarWolf
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Posted: 16th Jan 2003 16:19
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Damn it. A whole lot of spelling and grammar mistakes there. Sorry about that.

I didn't steal it!
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 16th Jan 2003 16:27
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Don't worry we all do it especially when u feel passionately about something and type fast

Personally I like each country to have its own identity, and the Pound is part of ours. I think nowadays in the Western world at least everybody's so scared of being called predudiced they try and kill individualism. Next thing you know there'll be a single language! Not that it bothers me, as It would probably be English, because of America's influence on everything (Thats not really an exageration, look at how many European schools teach English and enforce it as the language you need to be successful in the world)

Not that Americans speak English of course *runs screaming*

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Soyuz
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Posted: 16th Jan 2003 18:00
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Yeah WarWolf I agree on that aspect...I guess there's some fndamental reason wht we couldn't retain power of our own economy in each country while retaining a single monetary unit throughout Europe.

And Kangaroo, on the point of individualism, I think there's much more to countries retaining their own identity beyond their currency. I think disposing of our pound is negligible to say if it was decided to dispose of our castles, our pubs and warm beer, our diabolical weather, driving on the left side of the road, eatting sunday roast or just getting a bag of fish and chips when you're lazy, burning down the New Forest, demolishing our beautiful red brick housing estates, abolishing the royalty, outlawing our self-depreciating attitude, removing the spitfire from the history books, ahhh man you could go on all day - I mean what's a currency compared to that, it hardly defines who we are and how we got it.

If you go to France they still eat baguettes and sip coffee in endless quaint cafes. They still speak french and the Eiffel tower hasn't collapsed! You get my point Our currency really means very little on the scale of what makes our national identity - if it were not the case maybe we should bring back shillings, yards, feet, pounds and inches in to more common use.
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empty
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Posted: 16th Jan 2003 18:52
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WarWolf,

IMHO the euro (or the EMU) came too early for Europe. However now it's here and the vast majority of EU countries adopted it. I think it is the wrong way for the UK (as well as for Denmark and Sweden) to keep their own currencies.

With the expansion of the EU and later of the euro these new markets are more likely open to those countries that already have the Euro. I was born in Ireland and live in Germany at the moment (once lived in London as well) and I think both countries either take andvantages out of the EMU now (Ireland) or will take advantages in the near future (Germany).

As for Germany, they indeed have troubles atm. But these are mainly caused by the tremendous amount of money they still need to invest in the eastern part. The ECB is very much structured like the German "Bundeszentralbank" was, and before the German unity, German Mark was known as a very strong and reliable currency. To allow higher inflation doesn't reduce unoccupation. In fact Ireland in the 60s and 70s and Germany in the 20s and 30s have proven that higher inflation can cause unoccupation.

You'll keep your "identity" regardless of the currency you use. It doesn't even depend on the country you live in but on the region. If you travel a lot you'll find that people in different regions in the same country have different cultural backgrounds and often it's "only" the language they have in common. On the other hand you'll find that those who live close to borders, have more in common with the people on the other side of the fence.

And I will probably never understand how somebody can be proud to have a certain nationality- I mean most didn't do anything about it- it just happened. But I guess that's my problem.

Ogres have layers.
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empty
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Posted: 16th Jan 2003 18:56
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Kangoroo2,

the language thing is quite interesting. There have alway been languages dominating in Europe (Latin, German, French and now English). And compared to the 18th and 19th century, the influence of the English language is quite weak.

Quote: "
Not that Americans speak English of course *runs screaming*
"

reminds me of John Cleese

Ogres have layers.
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 16th Jan 2003 20:18
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I like John Cleese, Python and Fawlty Towers are classic

Good points Soyuz (funny too ) and empty - I know our identity is not based around the currency, but the sterling is a strong part of our heritage. Or maybe I'm just too lazy to adapt

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WarWolf
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Posted: 17th Jan 2003 10:23
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Empty, what I meant was that trying to keep inflation down also means keeping unoccupation up. When more people works, there are less people who can replace them. So they can demand higher salaries, with a little help from the trade unions (is that the right name?). And when they get higher salaries, the company that hires them looses money, so they higher the prices. Inflation!

At least this is how it works in Sweden, since we have very strong trade unions. In the US for example, where they hardly exist, then maybe it doesn't cause inflation hireing more people.

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The Wendigo
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Posted: 17th Jan 2003 10:54
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... well might burst into spontanious flames, but isn't the nature thats intended

I've personally never heard of a political type person that doesn't feel strongly about something to start a flame over it . This post is asking for flame-bait hehehe....

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The Wendigo
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Posted: 17th Jan 2003 11:08
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Some politics in the US:

I don't mean this too offend but it's probably going to be this way: to me, American civies are fickle idiots! One thing that's got me really concerned about us it that it's been a couple of years since our 'little' september 11th accident. A survey said around 90% of the population at that time was IN FAVOR of a war against the Taliban. Today, I just saw a commercial on the news saying that we should not go to war with Iraq and it was backed very strongly by a lot of Americans. If you ask me, it sounds like we are doing an about-face within a couple years time forgetting our past like a blind dog by saying that the Taliban are more of a threat than a nation that would Nuke us as soon as they had the chance (IRAQ) and North Korea that plans on nuking somebody (south Korea or an allie)! Korea scares me the worst. I live in souther california an hours drive (with regular traffic that is) to Los Angelas, a prime nuclear target, and people in Central US are saying we should just sit around and see what happens. When you play with someones life, you feel secure knowing it's not you, but when you find that you are the life that is being played with, you get a little ticked off. AND IT'S MY LIFE THEY ARE GAMBLING WITH!!!!!

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The Wendigo
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Posted: 17th Jan 2003 11:10
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september 11th accident

I meant tragedy and in noway meant to lighten it up. Many died and it's a very large deal because of that.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th Jan 2003 11:34
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lol ... if there was to be a universal language it'd be german - or atleast i remember hearing somewhere that its the widest spoken international language.

Personally i'd like to see the old imperial system for the currency brought back - but Metric was placed in mostly because of the treasury.
I mean its simple to say 14 pence to the pound and what was it, 6 pound to the shilling (hard to remember as i've never used it) - but when your doing large billion pound budgets then you need to understand several base math levels and quite frankly prior to computer it was a bit more than confusing
Especially with the 1/4, 1/3 and 1/2s lmao - unless you had some pretty sweet mathematical education (something expensive in itself) it'd be quite simple to make a budget mistake and screw everything up

But even with the change from HOW the pound worked, we still kept the base objectives of the currency.
And a pound sterling is still exactly what it was under the old system - its the pennies that changed value

personally i think there is alot of pride within the monarchy and the currency ... as right now we're using both then WHY does it have to change to one? and if it did HAVE to change, the quite simply i'd want to keep the pound - because its own currency, within our own treasury.

if you think about it, if there is some fudge up in another country - and say a nuclear plant explodes and takes BMW with it ... BOOM! the entire European ecomony will lean upon germany and rather than a single country going bankrupt and forcing a national currency to become worthless, the ENTIRE european currency will become as worthless as a Rupal

i did write a nice long peice here - but i didn't feel like posting.
point of it all was i'm damn'd proud to be british and i hope those national teasures that make this country stand out against all the other superpowers will stick around for my kids to see rather than just read about in history books!
like we must now if we want to even come close to understand how a true monarchy used to work.

:: sighs :: doesn't really mean a bag of beans to be truely proud of somewhere anymore because everything you care about everyone wants to change just to fit in

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th Jan 2003 11:46
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well Wendingo ... actually points out the mentality of the adverage american here - lmao

one the US and UK are not longer scared (atleast not the governments) of Nuclear attacks due to something that you may have heard of (and if you live near LA mighta even seen) called the Star Wars System...

there are currently 5 large radar grids (of British Aerospace design) which give Satilites targets of the Nuclear based weaponry and now can destroy them with 99.99% sucess rate (not bad for a 3year system).

secondly Sept 11th 2001 was the date your looking for...
and Bush is an idiot for pushin' against Saddam's regime, but what scares me about that whole incident right now is that Blair is aswell. And that guy is scarily crafty, so i'm sure there is FAR more to the whole Iraq thing than we're going to be allowed to know for some years.

Korea is a worrying nation but Pakistan vs India is also a VERY worrying ... and as Pakistan, India and North Korea are all close to each other with nuclear warhead technology - on the boarder of Russia who since going bankrupt as a nation, seems kinda interesing how those southern nations got thier hands onto the technology which there is a Treaty against the use of (plus the materials which also my bets would be hypothetically speaking of course, came from Russia)

well whole big ol' mess in the east, and with the Americans wading in thinking thier helping (obviously completely ignorant to how the whole Taliban crap started in the first place) ... ya know i think there is good reason to be more worried about being called to duty.

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WarWolf
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Posted: 17th Jan 2003 12:47
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Wendigo, USA really terrifies me! You know why? They've got nukes! Who the hell knows what they might do with it?!?

I don't think the US should complain about other countries when they have the most A-bombs in the world.

Read some books by Noam Chomsky! Really informative! 11/9 is great, I'm reading it now. John Pilger is good too. And Naomi Klein. And.. Whatever, I'll shut up.

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Rob K
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Posted: 18th Jan 2003 00:29
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this reminds me of a 2DTV cartoon released around the election time

[Onboard the PM's private jet]

Blair: So whats this next country like?

Straw: 3rd rate health service, asylum seekers everywhere, poverty, collapsing public transport system, gun crime everywhere, drugs, dicatorship...

Blair: So who runs this 3rd world country

Straw: Err... you do.

Blair: Ah... whats it called again?

Straw: England, PM

Seriously though, the UK ain't a fabulous place. If you actually earn any money then head for the states IMMEDIATELY. Income tax is a hefty 40% cutting in at just £28K per year + 10% National Insurance.

The question I want asked is: Why the HELL does our PM ACTUALLY THINK that the Euro is a good idea, or does he really? It so obviously a flawed concept so WHY do any politicians actually like it.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 18th Jan 2003 09:06
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yeah i know what ya mean Shader... i mean i'm being paid the same rate at the moment but the way deductions and such are put on i couldn't live anywhere near as comfortably. Isn't to say the taxes in the states are too greatly cheaper - but 10% at over $100,000 is still a 10,000 they don't take away!

The Euro quite simply was a poorly planned currency from day one, even in the 10years they spent getting everything ready for it... still is fudged up when it came in.
It quite clear to see our ecomony would actually collapse given the nature of the Euro IF it came in.
I mean if the UK was like the US with a huge surplus each year, having each individual County doing thier own budgets rather than just the national treasury - it would probably make alot of sense.

But the stock exchange is kinda going belly up right now, add onto this the fact our taxes are over 20% higher than the Euro yet as this is our main income for the GNP then 20% of i think last count was about £160billion, thats quite a chunk less money for an economy that can't afford to keep minimum wage (due to business handout) as well as our NHS (that would be the first thing to go) ... so really anyway you look at it the ONLY sensible thing you can see is that the inflation rates and such would be easier to be capped as they're as a whole rather than country based. But also highlights the problem i mentioned earlier that if ONE of the Euro countries crashed, all of them would follow like dominios because it would bring the adverage down.

This in turn would simply make countries like the US even richer and even MORE powerful ... something i think they don't really need more of right now.

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Rob K
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Posted: 18th Jan 2003 13:54
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"ONE of the Euro countries crashed, all of them would follow like dominios because it would bring the adverage down."

That is what I really worry about. Also, Pro-Europeans pointed at Germany as a benefit of the Euro, and now look what happened to them. Most Germans hate the Euro if the rumours are true.

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empty
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Posted: 18th Jan 2003 15:43
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Quote: "
But also highlights the problem i mentioned earlier that if ONE of the Euro countries crashed, all of them would follow like dominios because it would bring the adverage down.
"

Believe me, if ONE EU country crashed all of us would follow, regardless of our national currency. The economic entwinement does not stop in sight of the Sterling. And before you suggest that the UK should leave the EU completely, you should maybe concider that beside the USA, Germany and France are UK's most important trade partners, and you could probably imagine where your economy would be then.



Quote: "
Also, Pro-Europeans pointed at Germany as a benefit of the Euro, and now look what happened to them. Most Germans hate the Euro if the rumours are true.
"

I said that Germany WILL benefit from the EMU (Ireland does already) since exports are their main income.
The acceptance of the Euro was higher BEFORE the it was introduce because- opposite to France and many other countries- there was no governmental control over the price development and some companies used it to raise their prices massively (the nominal value of the German Mark was about half of the Euro, so it was not that obvious).

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empty
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Posted: 18th Jan 2003 15:44
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That should read:
"The acceptance of the Euro was higher BEFORE it was introduced"

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n3t3r453r
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Posted: 18th Jan 2003 16:15
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What a long text???!!! :lol: i think i'll need about a half hour to translate it
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Rob K
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Posted: 18th Jan 2003 16:54
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"Ireland does already" - Ireland is a nobody though.

Britain is easily in the top 3 most powerful countries in Europe, the trouble is that Europe brings down the best and brings up the worst so that everyone reaches a middle point. The EU is invasive enough as it is (with the stupid idea that EU law supercedes British law!) - the last thing we need is them controlling our currency. Also, the Euro has to be set for Europe as a whole, but if a country has a problem which could be sorted by altering the currency somehow, it can't be done because that would affect all the countries.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 18th Jan 2003 17:13
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Wendigo:
American civvies fickle? No American Government (and British Governments) are very hypocritical.

The war against Taliban & Al-Quaeda is directly linked to Sept 11. That's why 90% backed it.

Iraq had nothing to do with Sept 11th. Thats why Americans not happy about it.

You worried that Saddam gonna make a nuke and give it to Mr Bin-Laden? Well Iraq aint got any nukes, and will never have enough equipment to make one. Also Saddam and Bin-Laden have very different ideals and hate each other.
Now pakistan (which is the new Al-Queada base, and run by a military dictator) has about fifty nukes and the equipment to make more. If Al-Queada is gonna get a nuke then Pakistan is where they'd get it. But Bush-Blair aint mentioned that - 'cus Pakistan got no oil, so we not gonna bother with them.

Only one country ever used Nukes - thats USA. They dropped 'em on highly populated cities to cause maximum civilian casulties - Japan asked for it when they attacked Pearl Harbour, a purely military target?
Britain used chemical weapons during WWI - and ordered the RAF to drop mustard gas bombs on Kurdish villagers who were rising up against British occupation.

USA & Britain caused plenty of atrocities - and if we invade Iraq that will be another shameful page in our history.
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empty
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Posted: 18th Jan 2003 17:41
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Quote: "
"Ireland does already" - Ireland is a nobody though.
Britain is easily in the top 3 most powerful countries in Europe
"

Ummm, and that argument leads you to what opinion? Indeed, the UK is the 3rd most powerful country in Europe (I assume we're talking about economy) but it has the 3rd highest population as well. And "easily"... well Italy is closer to Britain than Britain is to France.
Anyways. To see how something affects on a country's economy and its development you should maybe use indicators like "GDP per capita" rather than "GDP".


Quote: "
Also, the Euro has to be set for Europe as a whole, but if a country has a problem which could be sorted by altering the currency somehow
"

See my statement above. And "altering the currency" is the worst option you can choose, anywhere, anytime.

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empty
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Posted: 18th Jan 2003 18:01
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Oh, and I meant GNP (per capita) not GDP (per capita).

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 18th Jan 2003 23:01
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Ireland in the Scheme of things is kinda a nobody ... i mean no offense to the irish, but on the European scale if the Irish ecomony crashes that wouldn't be a big deal.

The problem you fail to see is that the Sterling is on a market exchange of its own ... just as the US Dollar, Canadian Dollar, Japanese Yen etc...

if the Euro crashed like the Rupal, yes it would definatly hurt everyone - but atleast we have the ability to recover within a self sufficient market, remeber that the UK's biggest profit maker is the North Sea's Oil which supplies 30% of the world!
As vehicles are the number one consumer item behind food, which the UK is actually completely self sufficient in and actually is another big export for us within Europe, although we wouldn't make as much on export ... it's likely that if Europe died, then we could simply cut alot of international ties to those markets - give them time to recover and trade more with the countries that currently DON'T benifit from what we export.
It would also be much easier for us to take on Ireland under the British wing during a time like that, simply because the profit from the Technology industry within Ireland is quite high, meaning we would both profit from such a partnership

I know that our history isn't exactly clean of anything of a similar wage to what the US did after WW2, but the whole of WW1 was a pure cockup - and the reason it began in the first place is truely an embarassment and a likelihood that almost no one here knows.

Alot of civies dies in those few years, just senselessly. And as for the RAF - ack the commanders didn't even understand how they should've been used until millions were dead! Certainly right up there in the dark pages of British history along with many of the medevil mecidinal practises.

I know what you mean about Saddam thou ... i mean the poor guy might not have the best rep, but ya know he doesn't deserve to be pestered all the time.
I think you're right though, just like in the earli 90s this is all simply about the Oil and the possible profits isn't it - not about unopressing a country.
You hear what they found the otherday, like 10year old old SCUMM shells which COULD (thats a very important word) be customised for Chemicals.

I dunno, they keep saying that ya know he isn't being forthcomming with letting the inspectors about - but i mean you know when you're parents come over and decide they're gonna snoop around your house, you don't need to be hiding anything to just want your damn'd privacy back.

Not saying that Saddam is exactly an angel or anything, but he is incharge of a country - isn't bothering anyone, is just trying to protect his own interests and people.
at the end of the day they are causing more problems and actually pushing for a conflict.

Personally i think how they're dealing with Bin Laden himself is a huge cockup and a half! This all out war on him shoulda been a fake if you ask me, make all the threats send in the troops for excersises on the boarders and send in a team of undercover guys to weed the lil bugger out like a Police Sting.
Instead they went in all guns blazing and wonder why Bin Laden has crept into a small hole somewhere not likely to come out for years.

We certainly need an intelligent government for a change!

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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empty
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Posted: 18th Jan 2003 23:51
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Quote: "
Ireland in the Scheme of things is kinda a nobody ... i mean no offense to the irish, but on the European scale if the Irish ecomony crashes that wouldn't be a big deal.
"

sigh... My example was simply there to show that Ireland benifits from the EMU. I did not build a scenario of "what would happen if the Irish economy crashes".


Quote: "
The problem you fail to see is that the Sterling is on a market exchange of its own ... just as the US Dollar, Canadian Dollar, Japanese Yen etc...
"

I fail tosee that? This is what we are talking about- the whole thread.


Quote: "
but atleast we have the ability to recover within a self sufficient market,
"

Yeah, sure. A single European country against such minor areas like North America and Asia.


Quote: "
remeber that the UK's biggest profit maker is the North Sea's Oil which supplies 30% of the world!
"

Cough... the North Sea Oil supplies 30% of the world? Let's see, Persian Gulf: 50%, North Sea Oil 30%, so there are merely 20% left for USA, Russia, and the South American countries. Why the hell are you still paying taxes in the UK?


Quote: "
As vehicles are the number one consumer item behind food, which the UK is actually completely self sufficient in and actually is another big export for us within Europe, although we wouldn't make as much on export
"

If Europe died, you wouldn't need cars. And by the way, who should build all these cars?


Quote: "
... it's likely that if Europe died, then we could simply cut alot of international ties to those markets - give them time to recover and trade more with the countries that currently DON'T benifit from what we export.
"

LOL. Yeah simply cut the ties. Who needs those exports for several years, who cares if there's an unemployment of 30%. You won't have anything to export if that should ever happen.


Quote: "
It would also be much easier for us to take on Ireland under the British wing during a time like that, simply because the profit from the Technology industry within Ireland is quite high, meaning we would both profit from such a partnership
"

Now I'm quite curious how Ireland will profit.

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Rob K
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Posted: 19th Jan 2003 00:42
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" To see how something affects on a country's economy and its development you should maybe use indicators like "GDP per capita" rather than "GDP"."

First year Geography, I am aware of that thank-you.

"Yeah, sure. A single European country against such minor areas like North America and Asia."

YES. SURE. We can compete on our own terms.

"LOL. Yeah simply cut the ties. Who needs those exports for several years, who cares if there's an unemployment of 30%. You won't have anything to export if that should ever happen."

Completely cutting ties with Europe is, as you said, not a good idea. However there would not be 30% unemployment. Britain is a very heavily service-based economy, so this would not be a problem. There are huge untapped markets in Asia and Africa which we could use as well.

" My example was simply there to show that Ireland benifits from the EMU"

Ireland is a small, little-tinpot country. Tinpot little countries benefit from the Euro, big powerful ones (like Britain) don't.

The trouble with Europe is that everybody wants more out than they put in, and therefore someone has to suffer - us.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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empty
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Posted: 19th Jan 2003 01:44
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Quote: "
First year Geography, I am aware of that thank-you.
"

Then you certainly know UK's GNP per capita is around the 6th or 7th position.


Quote: "
YES. SURE. We can compete on our own terms.
"

I wouldn't be so sure.


Quote: "
Completely cutting ties with Europe is, as you said, not a good idea. However there would not be 30% unemployment. Britain is a very heavily service-based economy, so this would not be a problem.
"

It's true, service is an important part in UK's economy. But that wouldn't matter in this case. Let's say the European markets vanish, what would happen? There would be lack of the products and goods that were imported; and since you are not able to produce them on your own, you need to import them from other countries. Would they offer the same conditions? I don't think so. And there you go- an economic catastrophy (and nobody can afford the services that are offered).


Quote: "
There are huge untapped markets in Asia and Africa which we could use as well.
"

And why haven't you occupied them yet by all means? If it was that easy, Germany had fewer problems.


Quote: "
Ireland is a small, little-tinpot country. Tinpot little countries benefit from the Euro, big powerful ones (like Britain) don't.

The trouble with Europe is that everybody wants more out than they put in, and therefore someone has to suffer - us.
"

And what do you gain if you invest in tinpot little countries? Markets.
And then I could mention subventions, agriculture....
Just one last thing: Did the other "big ones" suffer from the EMU or from the EU? No, not really.

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Rob K
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Posted: 19th Jan 2003 04:01
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"And why haven't you occupied them yet by all means? "

If Britain cut its EU ties and was forced to look elsewhere, then it would put more effort into occupying these markets, it takes quite a bit to get the ball rolling. Besides that, even if we cut ties with the EU, we could still trade within Europe (although there would be EU import taxes - but these would just force a change of business practises as happened with Japan previously)

"Did the other "big ones" suffer from the EMU or from the EU" *cough*Germany*cough*. The EMU ruined us.

I predict that at some point in the not to distant future, Britain will suffer a depression one year, jump onto the Euroboat in a short-term getout and then just as it is recovering, the Euro goes down the pan and we scream and shout... but it is all over. Sigh... it is almost depressingly inevitable.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 19th Jan 2003 05:59
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Ya know something we don't import hardly anything from Europe ... Taiwan, Ireland, United States are our major importers - why? Because the UK is a MAJOR export country.

the UK is a fully self sufficient nation, just as Australia, Japan and North America ... we produce all our own food, we produce a great number of products for ourselves and are unemployment is lower than most of the European countries.

But we're still gonna bitch about all of that (part of being British )
We've already begun too see the strain on our own markets so far due to the Euro and current events ... and it is going to be tough to keep the pound down against the ever value lossing Euro Dollar. Even the US recently has seen the strain from this!!
From what i see is that it really isn't going to last more than 2decades and there is to be a collapse unless the Europeans countries can work together.

And how Ireland would benifit from the UK pulling them out the plug when Europe goes down is by being heavily financed like the World Bank currently is for Russia - but as our interests within that little rock are actually quite tangable whether they like it or not, but they'll be brought back within the more stable British economy!
I'm not sure why that isn't an advantage in your eyes?
Ireland IS NOT self sufficient and reliest heavily on thier exports for revenue which do go across europe.
Without still having the UK here it would crumble like a digestive in tea!

Blair only has a few more years, if he is to get the majority behind him for the Euro he is going to have to do it whilst everyones attention is elsewhere ... because somehow i don't see the population or his own cabinate being for something that could cripple us even worse than we currently appear.

As noticed here alot recently no one appears to look into the future... and although no such super powers as Germany havn't OPENLY complained about the Euro and the economy problems, when companies suchas BMW report record losses over the past 5quarters - the underlining of such just proves the opposite of the praises that everyone feels the Euro should be recieving.

I can gaurentee you even if germany collapsed they would STILL act like there is nothing wrong, because they are a proud stubborn country ... just as much as the UK is.
Just like Russia never asked for help they just waited for the enevitable.
And i'm afriad that it is this kind of attitude that will kill the Euro completely.

See in the short term for the UK the Euro is good becuase it'll bring back more companies and business to the actual shores ... however when you look at the long term results, all of those things the people NEED worked on, suchas Railtrack - there isn't a chance in hell under a Eurobudget we could afford to hand out a few billion every 3months!

It just isn't economically sound or make any sense to lose our own market to become part of the European one!
It would be far better to trade within the Euros as we do right now but keep our own tender. If it means learning a second price system, then all the better i say.

I mean as the Euro is rougly the same as the Dollar it will allow transfers and understanding of the exchange with another major country. And it is common practise for alot of us to understand the difference between atleast 2 currencies anyway!

The way i see it... is why the hell is everyone pushing us to join something that only has short term benifits?
And lose something we could never regain?

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 19th Jan 2003 13:56
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Well said

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Posted: 19th Jan 2003 14:07
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[quote}
Ya know something we don't import hardly anything from Europe ... Taiwan, Ireland, United States are our major importers - why? Because the UK is a MAJOR export country.
[/quote]
No.
Exports: EU 54% (Germany 11%, France 9%, Netherlands 7%, Ireland 7%), US 15%.
Imports: EU 48% (Germany 11%, France 7%, Netherlands 6%), US 13%, Japan 5%. And it imports more than it exports.
(Source: CIA Worldfacts book)


Quote: "
the UK is a fully self sufficient nation, just as Australia, Japan and North America ... we produce all our own food, we produce a great number of products for ourselves and are
"



Quote: "
And how Ireland would benifit from the UK pulling them out the plug when Europe goes down is by being heavily financed like the World Bank currently is for Russia - but as our interests within that little rock are actually quite tangable whether they like it or not, but they'll be brought back within the more stable British economy!
I'm not sure why that isn't an advantage in your eyes?
"

Cause Britain will not be able to "heavily finance" anything if Europe goes down.


Quote: "
Ireland IS NOT self sufficient and reliest heavily on thier exports for revenue which do go across europe.
"

Problem is: the same applies to the UK (see above)


Quote: "
None of the above mentioned countries is self sufficent (in fact no industrialised nation is).


[quote]
unemployment is lower than most of the European countries.
"

In Europe: Yes, In the EU: No.


Quote: "
We've already begun too see the strain on our own markets so far due to the Euro and current events ... and it is going to be tough to keep the pound down against the ever value lossing Euro Dollar. Even the US recently has seen the strain from this!!
"

??? You are aware of the fact that the Euro was constant during the last year?


Quote: "
although no such super powers as Germany havn't OPENLY complained about the Euro and the economy problems, when companies suchas BMW report record losses over the past 5quarters - the underlining of such just proves the opposite of the praises that everyone feels the Euro should be recieving.
"

This is plainly wrong. see: www.bmwgroup.com -> investor relations.


Quote: "
however when you look at the long term results, all of those things the people NEED worked on, suchas Railtrack - there isn't a chance in hell under a Eurobudget we could afford to hand out a few billion every 3months!
"

This has nothing to do with the EMU. Whether or not you are allowed to subvention something is decided by the EU anyway- whether or not you have the Euro.

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Joined: 26th Aug 2002
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Posted: 19th Jan 2003 14:09
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I need an edit button, sneef........
The quote tags went a bit wrong in the above post. I'm sorry

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