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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / I'm Just Amazed...

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Rob K
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Posted: 21st Jan 2003 21:56
"That's too much for a hobbiest game, seriously... "

Well, of course it would depend on the game. For a small project then yes, 1Ghz is unneccessary (by minimum spec - I meant that it will run the game well - I don't mean min. spec in the Microsoft-way), but if I was making a game which uses a lot of the graphical effects then I would suggest such a specification.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2003 00:34
When I was using my GF4MX64Mb card with an old 800Mhz machine I got what i consider to be incredible performance from Dark Basic Pro (100+fps in a complex game), I also got acceptable performance (30+fps) on an even older 500Mhz machine with a GF2 Card.

Now that I have upgraded to an 1800XP processor, the FPS rate is ridiculously high - around 300fps in Windowed full screen mode at 1024x768x32. I can't imagine a game ever actually NEEDING to run at over 60fps, I personally would not be able to tell the difference. And a steady 30fps is more than acceptable - Arcade Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally run at that speed and they still look incredibly smooth and solid by today's standards

Obviously my performance is also helped in my 1800 and 800 machines by the fact both have 512Mb DDR Ram, and the fastest Hard-drives available to my knowledge. Also, if the 3d cards were not as powerful (both my GF4 and GF2 are 64Mb - I notice the "minimum spec" for DBP is an 8Mb card lol) then I guess performance would suffer significantly.

Basically what I mean is, I imagine the minimum specs as far as Mhz go are not too important - so long as you have a decent Graphics card.

Rob K
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2003 01:36
@Howie

A question I left unanswered earlier re bugs in DBP. The answer is that if you are prepared to get on and develop then you won't suffer from most of them or you can find a workaround. Most of the bugs are not major flaws that stop you developing but inconvenicences, by the time you finish any game, the bug in question will probably be fixed. The speed thing with lots of objects is indeed an issue but P4 will be released soonish which fixes that.

Minimum specs for any DBP app are effectively - GeForce 2MX card (you can get those for < £30!), 64MB RAM, 500Mhz processor. The recommended specs are GeForce 3 (£80), 128MB RAM, 1.2+ Ghz processor.

@Kangaroo

Yes the FPS is VERY high in DBP for simple objects, but by the time you have a full game running, this will drop to 45-90, for mid range PCs and from 25-35 for low spec PCs.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
indi
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2003 01:58
hehe this remimds me when my pc was 90 mhz and other kids had 166 mhz with 64 megs of rom compared to my 32.

Chroma
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2003 04:40
Howie,
Blitz3D is getting a DX9 upgrade and can make commercial quality games right now. Many games have been published and the language is very stable. I try not to post in this manner but Blitz is really a top notch language. I occasionally use DB too.

Indi, that's a nice company name you got there, LunarPixel. Nice site too.
howie
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2003 08:12
I'm convinced I could make a game that looks good and runs fast. The look is only part of the equation. Still need a solid game idea and tons of graphics. I would have to say the speed and power DBPro can provide to the project fall well within most gamers requirements. I don't think most gamers will be disappointed or even know the difference.

We all get worried we are writing in basic but the reality is that the area where we need the speed is handled by the language. Controlling the game and the game logic is code that is not speed critical.

If you say "you can" or if you say "you can't", your right.
indi
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2003 08:21
no worries howie welcome to the madness btw

indi
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2003 08:21
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2003 15:06
Shader - even with complex games (still less than 500 objects tho cos of the current Pipeline problem) I get much higher FPS than you said - however If I remove the Graphics cards and put in an old TNT Riva 16Mb PCI I get about 5-10 frames which is obviously un-usable... but now DBPro supports 320x240 screen resolution, so even thats fixable! However I do agree with the minimum Specs you laid out, you know what you are talking about

Indi - lol I remember laughing at my friends when I first got a 33Mhz Machine with 8Mb of Ram, compared to their puny 16 Mhz Machines with only 4Mb Happy days...

Howie I agree with you completely - "We all get worried we are writing in basic but the reality is that the area where we need the speed is handled by the language. Controlling the game and the game logic is code that is not speed critical." Do you mind if I quote that in an upcoming FAQ for my new APP? Obviously I'll credit you for it

Twisted Matrix
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2003 18:49
>> RE: Raven Vegeta
>> However remember Assembly is also used ALOT in games development as it is quite a bit
>> quicker than any other language and about as close to low level programming as you'll get
>> unless you can program within Binary
Assembly IS low level programming? But beleive me I know what you mean. ASM isnt as low as
it gets. Try punching opcodes into a hex editor at 3 in the morning.
Me and UWdesign we working on a NES(8 bit) emulator in BlitzBasic there for a while. It was a
good ways along too. I stopped working on it right after I started working on PPU (video)
emulation. Now that I think about it, I wouldnt mind starting that back up again.

>> RE: Howie
Howie, if I were you I would seroiusly consider looking at Blitz3D. I program in DB, Blitz3D, C++,
(and others i won't list now) but the point is. I have been around the DB scene since version
1.02 and I have written alot of code in DB and BB3D also. So I will give you some honest PROS
and CONS that I have observed while using these products...

DB
-- PROS ----------------
* Good little engine. defietly worth looking into if you want to see somthing on the screen right
away.
* Good terrain functions. (I havent seen the BSP yet but it sounds promising too)
-- CONS ----------------
* DB definetly has its fair share of bugs. It is very frustrating to be 4 months into a project with
10000+ lines of code and then everything suddenly stops working even though all your code
is technicly bug free. Although this is becoming less and less of a problem nowdays.
* DB's redering pipeline could do with some heavy optimization.

BB3D
-- PROS ----------------
* Somewhat faster than DB.
* Very few if not, no bugs at all.
* BB3D's collision functions make life a breeze.
* Allows limited access to polygons, normals, and vertices.
* BB3D also includes the fast 2D functions from the original BlitzBasic
-- CONS ----------------
* Has LOD terrain functions, but only allows one texture on a terrain, rendering it basicly useless.
* not really geared for the complete programming newbie. You have to have a bear minimum of
about 6 lines of code to put that first object on the screen as opposed to DBs 1

I will surely get flamed for this one howie. THe fact is though, that I am not advertising someone
elses product. I wish I could say my motives were so noble. I have no loyalty to BB3D. Im just
sharing my opinion in a county that thankfully still allows free speech. ANyways, Im just saying
you should give it a look before you buy DB PRO. They are both good products and If you are
like my you may end up getting both of them.

I am working on a game project right now in Blitz3D. If you want to compare quickly I just
released my first demo. It is at my site along with some IMages and stuff. I encourage every-
one to check it out.

http://www.geocities.com/ultratech_interactive

BTW: I am looking for artists, modelers, web designers, ect to join my team. Please contact
me If you would be interested in working on this project. thanks

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2003 20:49
(^_^) i've never said Blitz3D is bad ... however it doesn't delve deep enough i'm afraid.

what your see is what you get with it, which althought is quite impressive - doesn't add to the abilities within it very well.
With DarkBasic i've been able to simply write a DLL in C++ and et voila i've got more things to play with.
I've tried for over 8months to get similar DLLs to work in Blitz with no joy.

This is what i actually prefer over DB to Blitz... the fact that all the bugs it has are in non-essential areas really. Things that IF you wanted to you can code around.

Also DB protects the user quite greatly ... i've almost killed off a computer accessing the PTR buffers in Blitz before (something i've never done in C++)

technically on paper blitz does beat DB Standard hands down, and is healthy competition for Enhanced.
But it really doesn't shine a candle on Pro

apart from anything else a basic language is suppose to be just that - i've found Blitz's C++ style coding confusing for linear programming. And wasn't very friendly towards me when i first started to get into the whole NexGen Basic language scene.

at the end of the day, its upto howie which he prefers - and it might just come down to the fact of which he actually prefers to write in rather than powerwise

just remember there will always be clever bunnies who can push the "limits" of programs if they're there to be pushed.

as for powerhouse machines... i have a machine at home that made Puffy wet his pants due to its power - but i never used it. I prefer to be programming and testing on a machine which i want to be the commonly used, and i will also test on machines which are pushing the limits of min specs (yes Microsoft min specs)
because quite frankly, whats the point in power when very few people your aiming the game at will have close to that power!

As Std, Ehd & Pro rely heavily on graphcis cards, a faster processor won't matter greatly. And yes understanding Ram requirements and uses is also a bonus

as for my collision system, it is a pretty simple premise (was a bastard to develop thou)
As all of my work is, its based upon time specific loops - the collision arrays the relivant information in a buffer which is placed within a collision point tree (kinda like a BSP Vis Tree) ... now from this you'd calculate the vector distance between the object you want to collide's closest point.
Then you calculate the speed of the vector to find out the time

basically once you have the time you tell the object to stop within such-and-such seconds, double checking each second on the projected distance and the actual distance and make modifications accordingly

so basically you stop before they actually hit, so they're always projecting the collision in time - but when its within that Nth of a millisecond close, it stops

if you give it a buffer range of say 0.001 - 0.009 dbu the accuracy even with high polygon models is amazing.
and as you're only checking the closest within again a buffer range of value along the tree, you're not calculating 6million vectores but around 20-30 which even DB can handle with ease

the coolest thing about it is you can double up this collision tree with the visibility tree - and you can then reconstruct the level in a memblock combining textures and using on the level for some truely outstanding results

i mean when you think about things in the simplest of ways because all the information is precompiled before gameplay - is just sweet to use and far easier than you'd of thought possible

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
howie
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2003 23:52
"Kangaroo2"
Sure you can use the quote. You can even take credit for it. Makes no difference to me. I'm just stating the obvious.

"Twisted Matrix"
Thanks for the pros and cons. You really put some work into that piece you wrote. I can appreciate that. I also checked out your game. It's an excellent start. Hope you get the art resources to finish the project in a short period of time. It's looking really good right now.

The Language we choose...

Games are typically written in C. I'm talking mostly consol games, but I think games written for the PC might also be written in C++. There also may be some assembly written in there as well. It depends. Big game companies need the ability to create new technology, but that doesn't mean they will. They are just keeping their options open. They may even have their own tools that encapsulate then game engine like the basic programs do to help speed development.

When it comes to fast code, it only makes sense to optimize the areas of your code that requires the most speed. In a 3D game, the speed bottle necks are the transformations, collision detection and the rendering. Everything else makes no real physical difference.

Sure we could write a game in assembly. It would take us 20 times longer and more prone to bugs. That doesn't mean it will be a faster game to the point you can feel the difference and the rendering, which is the most time intensive task, is handled by the video card. So where's the benefit in writing in a lower language.

A great game is more then just fastest code. It starts with a great idea, game design and at the minimum, good art. But one of the biggest advantages you can get from these basic game packages is quicker development time. How fast you can turn out the game is the real benefit and as long as the speed is acceptable, who cares. A frame rate faster then your vsync is over kill.

If you say "you can" or if you say "you can't", your right.
Rob K
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 00:01
"BB3D
-- PROS ----------------
* Somewhat faster than DB."

Not under Patch 4 with lots of objects. With no objects, DBP is faster, with a full scene loaded, DBP is very slightly faster under P4, but the difference is very small.

"* BB3D's collision functions make life a breeze."

Personally I found collision easier to do in DBP, but it is a matter of personal opinion.

"I will surely get flamed for this one howie."

No you won't - your PROs / CONs are pretty fair and you have used both products, and so have I. Unlike some of the Blitz forums, the competition is treated respectably I find here. Overall, it is a case of Blitz or DBP and I think in the end it boils down to the language and the way that various features are handled, as well as the community.

I agree with Raven's point that DBP is far more easily expandable than Blitz. HALO's Singularity is a case in point - he tried to add more up to date 3D features using DLLs and the result was that it did not work on many end PCs. The memblocks commands are very useful for very low-level access and as a C programmer, I am sure that you can make use of them.

@Raven

Is it possible that you could post source code for your collision method, it sounds pretty interesting (Of course I understand that you spent a long time developing it so...)

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 00:58
Howie... it might like those are the essential things to a 3D game, however after a while of programming Pro you'll understand that speed anywhere to aid for the more intensive tasks is a bonus.

The most intensive tasks you'll perform are Collision, Networking, Lights (in high numbers), Ai and generally anything which isn't about 20-30lines long.

When you're intermixxing functions within C and C++ it doesn't matter, because the compiled language is built in a way that dynamic allowing instant access everywhere.

However DarkBasic ISN'T a dynamic engine, its a linear one. This is the case with all basic engines - and as such the heavier takes that take up the processor arn't just run whenever you want them run.

everything must be in the right order, else it will cause slowdowns.

when you pit these processor intensive things against Rendering - which was slow with high objects due to a poor pipeline, and you notice that it isn't a high priority.

if you want a Network game that is 20% of your speed gone right there ... and perhaps on a Pentium4 2.5Ghz this is nothing - but to a simple Celeron 600Mhz this is EVERYTHING!

it wasn't until i started using DarkBasic that i relised just how much programmers have to actually worry about when developing games titles. It is easi to see how hang bugs occure where the game is trying to catch up.

trust me right now you're doing simple games, but once you have a full game running and its down at 30fps and you want the game vsynced (60fps standard) you have to wonder where the hell has all that speed gone!

and programming within something like assembly isn't how most companies totally program games, that wasn't what i was meaning. What i was meaning is for intentsive tasks like BSP loading, it is quicker for Assembly to access binary data that it is for a higher level language like C++
it might be buggier meaning you have to take longer to program this area ... but when loading time go from 5min92sec for a C++ based loader and 1min32secs for an ASM one for Quake1's E1M1 level - its easi to understand why it is used for such operations.

And some consoles and computers suchas Nintendo and Amiga, thrived on Assembly
infact only the Nintendo GameCube is capable of C

the largest majority of games now are programmed within C++ simply because DirectX is 100% compatible with Visual C++ and this is the general weapon of war that coders use.
C is used when you want to cross-platform something and oftenly in conjunction with OpenGL
however even the mighty id software have recently given up C for C++ and OpenGL for thier latest incarnation.

C++ and ASM is fast becomming the primary programming language combination across the board.
The XBox uses C++, Playstation2 can use either C or C++, and the GameCube uses C

A good programmer will know both - but as DirectX grows in popularity for games development (mainly due to its all-in-one style package) C++ is really where its all going.

As for the PhysicsEngine ... its likely a DarkBasic Enhanced version (shortly followed by Pro) will be released as part of an SDK in July - This is to accompany the Quake Basics and Ocarina Engine releases.

i'll of course have more news closer to the time, and as you may already know the Quake Basics Engine is actually ready to be released - just being held off (can blame FMT politics )

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 13:15
Howie "Sure you can use the quote. You can even take credit for it. Makes no difference to me. I'm just stating the obvious."

- Thanks. I know its an obvious point, but you put it accross very clearly. Plus if I can quote a third party as saying it not me, people know I'm not just speaking bull to pursuade them my product is viable Anyway cheers.

Can I just ask what language Dark Basic Pro is programmed in? I always presumed it was C++ , am I right? I guess it is no lower level than that?

howie
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 17:06
"Kangaroo2 "

<< Can I just ask what language Dark Basic Pro is programmed in? I always presumed it was C++ , am I right? >>

I would assume so. Since DirectX is basically an API, any Windows compiler should work with the proper library files. So is a good bet they used MSVC++ or C++ Builder. You could do it in Delphi but I don't think that would have been their language of choice.

Those of you who are really pushing these basic tools to the max are doing all of us a great service. Be sure you let the makers of these tools know what it is you need. This is the only way they know what has to be add.

A small note about assembly...

Assembly is not the be all or end all. It's very possible to write slower code in assembly then the same code in C or C++. Many times you whip out the assembler because there's no better way to handle a situation. Case in point, the below example.

// C code
Result = ( Num / Denom ) << 16

// Assembly version
mov eax, Num
mov edx, eax
sar edx, 0x10
shl eax, 0x10
idiv Denom
mov Result, eax

The above assembly code is written because the C code statement can't do the fixed point division with enough precision. They both work but the assembly instructions yield a better result. The c compiler in this situation can't properly translate the code into the instructions needed. But this is a very rare situation where you need to "Take matters into your own hands."

Today's compilers are very smart and it would be very difficult to match the speed of a compiled C function compared with the same function written in assembly. This is more of a situation of where you would have to "Pick your battles" wisely. Just because you wrote the code in assembly, doesn't guarantee great speed or any additional speed at all. Many times it's the same if not slower. Writing the fastest assembly code requires an amazing amount of work because what you are trying to do is cut down on the number of instructions used, keep the data your working with in the registers and to hopefully, use instructions that require the least number of cycles. And after you have done all that, there's no guarantee it will be faster. It really depends on the situation and what your trying to accomplish.

So don't worry about C, C++, Assembly or the speed of your game. Focus your attention on the game design. Great games are like great movies. All the best special effects in the world, and your favorite actors can't make a great movie from a bad story. But a great story can make a great movie on a small budget.

If you say "you can" or if you say "you can't", your right.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 17:41
i know its also a fact of like "the right tool for the right job" ... and yes design is important.

but if a language isn't fast enough to actually achieve the basic things - i mean for example, if you have a relatively mundane system [P2-233|64Mb Ram|TnT 8Mb|Dx7.1] and you try out the DarkBasic Standard demo's like (best example Iced)

using a Standard Matrix with the Standard Collision for checking that you've shot the goblins - IS SLOW AS HELL
i get 25fps on a similar system, which just is boarderline playable.

And that isn't exactly a complex game, infact it is extremely simple by what people want to achieve.
it is possible to speed it up however, but optimising the code.

At that level around ever say 10ms is an extra FPS - which is IMPORTANT to make the game playable, because above effects a game should be playable.

And why should the people who use minimum systems, which because you're NOT a highend title being pumped as a full retail release you can expect YOUR target audience to actually not be loaded and have super systems.

This is why whenever i see a new person here, they're all "ohh i want bump mapped bsp worlds with 5million shader level models for hyper realistic rain and such" but when you ask them what they plan to make - its like "oh an FPS which should be easy"

and i'm sorry they're thinking about the graphics before they're thinking about the game itself ... which is the first bad sign.
secondly if they DO want these effects then they'll need the speed to accomidate them - i mean i'm sure making a Quake3 killer that looks like Unreal2 would be amazing ... would be even more so if it didn't run at 5fps

alot of people STILL base their games on FPS rather than timer'd functions and wonder why the speed is so irratic.

speed is always an issue in all games really - and you're trying to do the best effects at the lowest cost.
just look at the basic way that phong shading is done ... because you can see what i mean.

It's the same effect only far less complex - this is why knowing a language is paramount.

If you want a good game it must play well... if you want the largest audience you need to make it graphically pleasing. Unfortunatly there is no way around this because although 2,000,000 users of MAME would prove that people like the older games - this is only a drop in the pond that is the games industry!

I guess if your just making games for fun then its oki not to know and understand ... but alot of users here are here in the hopes that they can move onto the other languages like C|C++ and professional program, and these skills and rather general understandings are what make good programmers.

Without understanding optimisation we would NEVER of had BSP - which everyone is currently bitchin about daily.
And if you look at the format, that also is really a hack around what it was originally to do.

And DarkBasic and DarkBasic Pro were Programmed in Visual C++ 6.0 if i remember right
Simply because DirectX is an OOL APi - and from what i know this is the language and IDE the team prefer to use.
Which i don't blame them cause it does take alot of pressure of how you program.

Ya know i'm quite surprised to have noticed that Lee is only 28 and Mike is only 21
i wonder how many people are going to go off them cause of thier ages lol

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Rob K
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 18:17
I think I have to agree with Howie here, modern compilers are very clever indeed and can generate pretty effecient functions. Assembler speed benefits are nowhere near what they used to be. When Quake I was written, that was several years ago - compiler technology has come on a long way since them. Some of the newest ones optimise the resultant code very well.

Raven - please do not reply to this discussion as you have a nasty habit of bringing things into flame wars. I am not going to debate whether or not you are right or wrong but I want to keep people like Howie on DBP.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 18:34
... there is a difference between a discussion and a flame war ...
its comments like
"Raven - please do not reply to this discussion as you have a nasty habit of bringing things into flame wars. I am not going to debate whether or not you are right or wrong but I want to keep people like Howie on DBP."

cause flame wars and serve no purpose, there is obviously no hostility between either of us as we're making points not arguing

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 19:37
It certainly doesn't read like an arguement to me, both are making very valid points

Thanks for the answer to the question guys, I thought it was. I was debating asking whether Dephi was a possibility, but thought I'd be laughed at

Personally I haven't dealt with Assembler and machine code since the late 8-bit early 16-bit days. I wasn't good enough to make a noticable speed difference. And although I have a decent knowledge of C and C++ (as well as other languages) I'm certainly not good enough to program an engine as efficient as DBP. I love being able to bypass all the (imo) boring stuff, and get on with designing and building what I feel are worthwhile games

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 20:16
well delphi is basically borlands pascal answer to Visual Basic
so its more likely you'd want to use Borlands C++ or even thier Pascal...

i mean alot of the older languages like Fortran and Assembly are plugins for Microsoft Visual C++
so you can program in all of them and still have full compatibility if you want

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
regujka
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 20:47
Please send me some examples for the shaders and the vectors! My adress: [email protected]

Rob K
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 22:35
"well delphi is basically borlands pascal answer to Visual Basic "

What a load of rubbish. Pascal is nothing like BASIC - it it is as powerful as C and as strict as well. Visual Basic is a newbie language that is designed for people who don't mind treacle-speed programs and no low-level memory etc. functions or pointers. It is also horribly forgiving as a language (normally OK, but if you make a typo this can cause some very hard to find bugs)

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Rob K
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 22:38
Delphi is very good IMO, as a language.

It is very good for GUI development, the syntax is simple yet clear and it is very easily extensible.

The personal edition is free (you can get the full version minus the manuals on magazine CD covers)

Delphi is NOTHING like VB either. Raven, please do some homework first!

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
The One Ring
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 23:33
Easy Darth Shader, easy... He said that Delphi was Borland's "answer" to VB... This is actually true. I remember Delphi 2.0 have help for VB users who were changing "sides".

You are, however, correct in saying that Delphi is better. Delphi is simply a fantastic language for getting quick GUI results, with a lot of the power of C (not all, mind you)...

Good, bad... I'm the guy with the gun. - Ash in Army Of Darkness(1993).
Raven Vegeta
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Posted: 23rd Jan 2003 23:37
Shader, easy man. Remember that Raven is the master of this forum. No matter anyone's opinion, he's always right . He have created Lara Croft Game a long ago and now he have done C&C Generals for E.A Arts... in another words, he's always in the leading companies around. If tomorrow Wizards of the Cost leads, he probaly will be there, coding, modeling, making textures, story plot and so on...AND, will have time enough to flame bait here . So beware with the master of the masters...
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 01:17
Yes I have used Delphi and it WAS marketted as an alternative to Visual Basic, however you are right in saying its in code, nothing like a basic language really. I have programmed quite extensively in VB, Delphi, Pascal, C and C++ but could never make a 3d engine sofisticated enough to rival DBPro's

howie
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 02:03
As far as speed goes, when you develop your game, you want to set your sights on the mid range of the technology that's out there. Just like you wouldn't want to develop a game that runs well on 300 MHz because you will be serious limited but at the same time you don't want to expect that there's enough people out there with 1.7 GHz or faster machines. To expect good performance on a 1 GHz machine is not a bad assessment depending on the type of game you want to make. The more objects you have running around on the screen, the slower it will get. No surprise there.

We have talked so much about optimizing the code, but there is plenty of optimizing you can to with the art and objects. Every frame cycle, all the points have to transformed as well as other related tasks. The more polygons, the higher the complexity, the more there is to do, the slower it will get. So if your world has a high polygon count because the map is just huge, that will help take down the speed. Perhaps you could cut it into pieces. If your character models are complex, the more you add, the slower things will start to get. Know where you can be elaborate as well as where you need to cut back.

What happens with tools like DBPro, it shields the programmer from what is really going on behind the scenes. Adding your worlds and bunch of characters running around all over the place is too easy to do. You forget that you have to account for all that's happening, and you start to get sloppy. Your worlds have things modeled that is not necessary and your characters have polygon details that are not really needed. You forget all this adds up. Your so far removed from the nitty gritty, your just running away with it having a grand old time. Then, the novice game programmer is just livid about how slow the game is running not seeing the waist involved in the worlds, the model polygons and textures. In short, you need to keep a close watch one every polygon, every texture, everything. I can't tell you how many times I have had to reel that artist back in with a run away polygon count.

If you say "you can" or if you say "you can't", your right.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 02:04
Shader you need to take a timeout...
i said Delphi was Borland's Pascal answer to Visual Basic - i never said the languages were the same.

i've used Delphi since v1.0 (which was released '94 if my memory serves correctly) - i actually changed to Visual Basic in college and personally i prefer'd Delphi cause it wasn't as confusing.
that said Visual Basic on the surface is a very predictable language - under the hood is a very different story. Both programs have considerable power in the hands of those who can use them.

But personally if i was to build a GUI i'd make it in C++, cause the dynamics are better suited.
Recently saw Mofux's UI system in OpenGL thou - in software mode it is a bit of a joke (no offense man, but was LAGGY) however in hardware more was a demon hehee
can't wait until he finished what he's currently working on.

if i had to pick side with languages... i'd go with C|C++ rather than Pascal or Fortan, cause quite simply for me atleast they're a much better language.
but Pascal is certainly ALOT easier to read and use

as for Alucard ... grow up and stop using my old Alias

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Raven Vegeta
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 02:24
Oh yeah, I didn't know u have copyrighted it... I will change my alias b4 Eletronic Arts will put a layer on my back for it...
lol, I use whateever I wanna use my fellow.
Arrow
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 02:25
Howie's got a good point about the ploys. Although we're trying to make games here, at the moment we can not, graphicly, produce something that'll stand up to the Next Gereation Consles. I saw one guy on these forums who's designed a 3000 model that he plans to clone about 30 times! It's not that detailed ether, mostly curved surfaces, it looks like Tomberry from the FF games. We need to look at N64 and PS1 games for a good idea of how many ploygons to spend on models. I'm working a model now of a guy in a trenchcoat, and it's udder 300 ploygons (no head at the moment) and it looks good, except the shoulders. Pretty good for a novice, I think.

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...at least for now.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 02:29
oh no... i definatly understand how polycount and texture setups can affect and engine - but when your programming a game this isn't an issue to begin with because you use placemarkers of standardise objects without textures.

this means if you code is running slow PRIOR to adding things then you've got BIG problems.

most newbies dont' work like this thou... they grab their models and throw in like 20,000 polygons with thier 1024x1024x16bpp textures and wonder why the hell the camera isn't moving right.

but also the point in using place marker is you can actually sit there and ADD polygon by polygon using a function until you see at which point your scenes will start to slow with thier main code in place.

thou it is a hallmark of a good artist to be able to work closely with thier programmer and understand if they use such-and-such technique this means that you have so many polygons your aiming for on a certain system.

generally speaking in dbpro terms, it can handle a single object of 50,000 polygons textured with the tiled 16x across using a P2 300Mhz - TnT2 16Mb - 32Mb Ram - Dx8.l at roughly 60fps
thats at 32bpp colour & with a 512x512x24bpp tga

60fps is what people should be aiming for ... however 30fps on a timer based loop system is quite acceptable

see the point here is optimisation should be happening all over and not just as an after thought - but should become part of your regular skills, so you produce the optimisations without thinking.

i mean if i'm working to a DBpro scene - i'll take the assumption well be using a BSP world, this will mean that the world is given a cache of 2,500 polygons for something REALLY complex, but usually will be at around 1,000.
And should be as enclosed as possible ... else this will just kill the frames.

on that you never aim for the highest polycont - so our budget would be around 25-30k
this might seem like alot, but when you models are 5,000 polygons this is used INCREADIBLY fast.

So you have to make the models based on how they're going to be used ... either as a group you'd aim for roughly under 1,000 (preferably 300-700) ... or they might be a single badass boss, in which case you can afford more polygons like 3,000 and because the texture memory is clear from the repeats it means that you can have a bigger texture with more precision.

knowing the difference in speed between 8bit, 16bit and 24bit colour images is ALSO paramount ... because of 16->24bit conversions when you render.
Might not seem like much, but when you're doing say 20per scene this quickly adds up
you have to remember about the main character who's always onscreen as well - just as with weaponry or such.

but also remember that coders have a tendancy to want to make things that are just too complex rather than optimised as well... so they'll want freethinking Ai, that can extend itself and work around things etc - which quite frankly isn't feasible unless you take away from other things.
Bump mapping is a nice touch but is a feature we can all live without.
Even simple shader blending costs dearly.
adding networking utilises the processor, this kills speed - because its that much less processing power you can use. Dial-Up modems users will also cause power to be lost!

you can't just always think in the graphical terms when programming - but they are quite a big part of it.

i have more than enough times explained in quite alot of depth, that polygon counts arn't essential - however being sensible about them does help.

its more the "features" of a game which is likely to kill a game ... atleast within DarkBasic Pro's case

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
howie
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 05:37
Raven, well said.

Working in the imbedded systems environment, you really have to pinch your pennies. Being mindful of optimizations in code as well as your art is key every step of the way.

I even went so far as to clip whole objects that were too far off to be seen. What I mean by this is if the object was too far away, I'd pull the whole object out so that it's points are not translated. Basically remove the object from the environment. Sort of like a whole object culling.

If you say "you can" or if you say "you can't", your right.
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 11:16
As far as Polycount goes, I agree we should be looking more towards the N64 and PS1 for moel poly counts. However, I don't agree about not rivalling the higher spec machines, because we can run in a very High screen res, higher texture res (and we all know clever textureing can make the model), and severely more impressive lighting and shading, so the overal effect is much more 'next-gen' than any low-res last gen game. A low poly count is no excuse for poor graphics - use texturing, lighting and shading well and the overall impression is much better, especllially when running games at speed Its all about working your tools, guys

PS Shadow et all get off Vegeta's back - he's said nothing offensive in this thread, we're all just discussing, hopefully without provocation

Rob K
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 11:30
In DBP, it seems that the most important thing is to keep the object count as low as possible. Hence UW Designs Visible World's tools can increase FPS rates greatly.

The polycount doesn't seem to have as much effect as object count and so on.

The other thing I have found works quite well to improve speed is to consider whether or not a function needs to be run every single frame. If you can run CPU intensive functions even every other frame you can spread the overhead quite well.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 11:38
i would personally say look towards games like Quake3 and Half-Life ... but expect to get the same results on a 400Mhz w/8Mb D3D Card (NON SiS!!!!!!!! For the love of god not SiS!!! ) rather than a P233 w/4Mb D3D

i mean you all know that on the Playstation the Max counts you can push is about 2,500 per scene and on the N64 you wanna be knocking only around 4,000 max!

but pro is more than capable of 10,000 which is roughly what low end Quake3 has (with standard models ofcourse).

however i don't think for first games people should be aiming that high - they should just be trying to get something simple and playable working.

personally i prefer to work with artists who've grown up within the modification scene ... because they all have far better grasps of these kinds of polygon concepts and the importance with working closely with the coders to produce the desired results
those who come from uni or something with fancy degree's are oftenly idiots who don't have a f**king clue hehee

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Rob K
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 13:49
"they should just be trying to get something simple and playable working."

Agreed - there is no need for high poly models in a hobbiest game really.

"NON SiS!!!!!!!! For the love of god not SiS!!!"

Very inappropriate language on this forum, the S*S word I meant

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Nazgul
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 14:57
Yep, vegeta. A nurbs model is not directly usable in a game Anyway when those guys spend some years on low pol stuff, we'd better find another job. No..joking

I'd like to see a tech demo like the room one but with a non jointed model but skindeformated one, or bones and weights dx8 animation. Is it cpu intensive or could be clever to use it? if polys are lowered to sum a total of10 or 8k triangles?

And...in room demo...I see a bit of slow donw in a certain situation. Pick the model and carry it to the farer right corner. In the first room s you're heading in start.

Now make him rotate in the corner round himself (leave the right cursor key pressed) you'll see when he rotates looking at the wall-corner, he goes quick, when he rotates looking at the room a noticeable slow down..Perhaps a not common situation, but...is it due to particle effects? Would it be avoided using fewer or fewer polys? Is it avoided when compiled to an exe, or just run with patch 4, instead of the demo?

I mean, if is it possible a low polygon thing, 1300-1500 per model, to models skinweighted (preferrably with dx8 bones also) if the total don't sum up more than 10.000 ? Indeed the room/scenery could be 1000k and still would be cool. Just preventing the case of more characters, or more scenery than a fps. Even ultra low would sound me cool : 300 polys scenery with the use of bsps to go navigating (anyway, I suppose it only calculates what is seen in screen?) ...what I can't -as an artist- stand is jointed models. Call me fanatic. If it can do, at least in these counts, at high speed in a typical pc these days (you know, standard user, gf2mx, tnt2 32mb) that'd be interesting.

I am just curious.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 16:34
personally i don't feel as if i'll ever be out of demand if people learn the same skills as me ... but then i'm secure about my abilities and skills.

doesn't take just being able to plot the lowest model and setting a pretty texture on it to make a decent modeller.
i've worked with so many newbies who believe thier talents make them, when having skill and passion is only the tip of the iceberg. Same goes for programming - you don't need years of industry experience to see that within the latest wave of "blockbuster" titles which appear to have relied on just pure visuals. sad really

there has been several demos, made within DarkBasic when the enhancements were released that demonstrated how with memblocks "frame" mesh deform animation was possiblt ... and a guy called Bryce made a sweet BVH (motion capture) importer. I found it easi to actually combine both of these techniques to give myself Skeletal animation - which the format was later changed to Milkshape skeletons because they were much easier to setup

the use of them isn't really "processor" intensive as such unless your start to use complex interpoling and eluar angle calculation to make the skeletons perfectly move.

which brings back the point of Quality Vs Speed ... its a snap decision that both an artist and the programmer should agree upon, usually based on use.
Something like skeletal animation you'd go with the cop-off which might look cheaper, but save alot of speed.

now i'm unsure to what demo you're talking about, but if it uses BSP then it is likely the visual tree beam is trying to go too far ... the reason why you always read that "leaks" are bad for BSP worlds, is because leaks are caps where the Visual Beam can slip through. As BSP gets its speed from working in an enclosed area by bouncing through the first 1-4 polygons and then Z buffer them based on the read order and collision.
So the further it has to check the longer it takes, and so as once it gets outside of the world the distance is the BSP or camera size (this is taking into account you've actually set it up).

When i say that 10,000 should be what you're working to ... this doesn't mean that you should HIT that, its actually more of a set max.

as far as i'm conserned Standard setups around actually are 200-400Mhz Mmx Processor | TnT-Based, GeForce2mx, Kyro or Savage4 8-16Mb Cards | 64-128Mb Ram
Generally everyone is on Either Windows 98 or XP Home with DirectX 8.1 (usually provided with games nowadays)

But you also have to guess they're using standard drivers, because only XP updates this automatically.

So that should be the range of PC you're aiming for because it isn't likely that highend users will touch it without sweet graphics, but then there are far more user with cheap'n'cheapful out of the box PC's

no one ever thinks of these people anymore, and its a shame cause they make up more of the market - because they don't upgade as it costs too much for a new computer and just as much to have someone install the new hardware. Most are computer illerate (apart from Internet) so they won't touch the hardware themselves

Now personally I think that is a VERY bad trait for someone to say that professionally they dislike something.
Your entitled to personally dislike something, however you must also know the benifits of using Hierachy based animation?
as well as a good artist is capable of making it work to some great effect ... - i've actually found that when i animated for a Quake3 Mod, the models i developed looked really crap as a single mesh. EVERYTHING bends and moves when you attach a skeleton, even if you setup the areas properly ... and something that will ruin a models look.
In my experience Machines works better Heirachy animated, and more to the point inanimate objects - which can't be achieved with simple skeletons. Once again you hit the Quality Vs Speed!
But in DarkBasic Std|Ehd|Pro you can use memblock to combine the techniques to produce some truely stunning animation which can even check for collision properly - so armour could be added like Unreal2's without loosing great heaps of speed.

now the reason why i constantly say that an artist should be working closely with (and not programming) is because although the artist does need to understand programming, his focus is on keeping works looking complete and consistance whilst also making sure it is appealing to those shallow people.

on my testing system you can get a good 150,000 polygon textured models, but then if you think about it... thats not a real test of the system.

Because there is a single texture as oppose to the 20-30 you should be using at any one time rendered
And you'd have far more mesh, each one would slow down the program as you have to initilise another render for them within the pipeline.

So a better test is 30 objects which make a similar bulk polygon count and texture load (yes even with the same texture) as a standard scene.

This is why its more exciting to alot of us about the new pipeline being able to handle hundreds of object per second faster, because alof of effects like spites also rely HEAVILY upon using lots of very uncomplex objects ...
you should allow for upto 500 sprite (you should NEVER need that many but atleast take into account this figure) which means 1,000 polygons
from 10,000 limit that is 10% already gone before any of the actual models are to be rendered.

you world if BSP should be given 3,000 (with perhaps a 500 poly buffer zone that you can decide per scene for use)
if you using Quake3 BSP then add on another 1,000! because of the adaptive spline surfaces.
so let say we're using Half-Life ... your now down to 6,000 polygons for the rest of your level.

so lets pretend cause we're using BSP its an FPS - so another 1,200. This might seem low compaired to other games like CS, but trust me a skilled artist can give you better looking weapons at that level - because you'd use a Visual weapon rather than a world weapon like Quake3.

so now we're down to 4,800 ... this isn't much to share between monsters and items as you'll agree.

say you have half-life grunts, 4 of them onscreen at once thats 4x800 (3,200) ... so now we have 1,600 for everything else - suchas wall health packs (which arn't included in the Vis of the BSP, are actually hidden dn show by distance from as all items are.

And suddenly 10,000 polygons for a screne doesn't seem to great.

Now to help eleviate this modellers and programmers deviced a system where futher away models have less detail, because this mean that polygon counts are less - which means less rendering type ... but more importantly give you more polygons to play with.
so you 800 poly grunt should now be cut down into 3 models (2 smaller poly models) ... which you should do at 20% intervals. This means the final model is over HALF the polygons of the original.

If once the game is finished speed appears to be there to spare, THAT is when you decide to up polygon counts - or add special effects like Bump Mapping etc...

But you have to always remember that Ai will cut 10-20% for anything good enough to make the player want to play, but not be so hard that he looses interest.
And networking also cuts down speed by about 15-20%, you tak on an extra 5% for dialup/usb modem users.
and don't forget the huge 10-25% that collision can take up

everything and aritst should be looking at is to keep as much free from the processing as possible whilst not destroying the visuals ... the job of the programmer should be to make sure that the controls and gameplay flow at a good speed.

As i've said... when you take away the main things from your polygon cache, then you relise how many you can have depending on the amount your going to see and thier required intelligence too (never forget that!)

however all this aside... it will also slow the game if the Ram of the card can't hold the models being rendered at the time, along with the textures and repitions (which actually make up th bulk) so you should be making this based on size, remembering everything gets converted in engine to the larger bitmap format or atleast 3-byte RGB image format.

it isn't AS important, however 16bit and 24bit renever also makes a difference on some systems as remember 16bit needs to be calculated whereas 24bit is a straight enough number

there are so many more things that an artist and programmer should be doing (and do when working professionaly) that the adverage user doesn't even bother getting to understand.
Normal Shading suddenly becomes and artists new best friend to eleviate texture needs.

now if you just making snake then these things are unimportant because really shouldn't be making anything the graphics and processor cant' easily handle.

but when you want to create a game which is greatly complex, suddenly these things become PARAMOUNT after the placemarker game is in place.

balancing performance with quality is a very fine art
and is better if everyone aim's lower than they'd like to, this way you do have a buffer gap for the just in case needs.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 17:24
WOAH that was a long post! I read it all tho, and you make a lot of sense

"Standard setups around actually are 200-400Mhz Mmx Processor | TnT-Based, GeForce2mx, Kyro or Savage4 8-16Mb Cards | 64-128Mb Ram - Generally everyone is on Either Windows 98 or XP Home with DirectX 8.1 (usually provided with games nowadays)"

Yep I'd agree with tha to a point. It obviously depends how ambitious your project is, but as I've said before its mostly down to the 3d graphics card, and unfortunately even some PCS you buy brand new from stores still use onboard 32-bit monstrostites However, if some1 is a gamer (and therefore more likely to actually PAY for your shareware/full project ) They will probably buy a gaming card, the standard cheap model at the moment being GF2 or 4 MX cards, depending on where you shop. Therefore we shouldn't have too many problems, so long as we advertise the fact that a decent card is needed

Shader - "In DBP, it seems that the most important thing is to keep the object count as low as possible. Hence UW Designs Visible World's tools can increase FPS rates greatly. The polycount doesn't seem to have as much effect as object count and so on."

You're right about the number of objects - but I hope this will be fixed on Sunday with Patch 4 Polycount does count, for me, even a simplet program starts to drag if I use more than 2000 polys on a player model, I try and stick to 1000 as a max, and more like 500 ish for scenery / basic enemies. This is just a personal preferance tho, you'll get good results with higher, just not on low end systems

Nazgul
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 19:15
Thanks for the long explanation. I prefer it so, I also often write so long, but in my area, only artist related. I come from the illustration field, but been some years learning about low pol now. Still learning, of course.English is not my language, so I don't catch some tech terms, but caught the essential.I didn't get the part of...well...mostly the word "traits". If means what I think, I feel unable to work under some quality barriers. Not necesary polygon releated. I have seen 700tris models which rather pleased me more than some of these days 3.500... some custom quake2 ones. I feel is an error in art not to point art errors to people; they could fix them and that would benefit them. When I refer to quality is more about coherence, not hi count or bumps. I can hide problems in a 700tris model with good uv, texturing,thoughful use of smooth shading, and knowing how I'm gonna animate the model, previously. With segmented jointed models could do..but...Well, this is more about personal aproachs, more than anything. The md2 famous goblin (if u remember it) had life, was well animated, modelled and textured for the budget given, for example. Many of the q3 models too. Is a matter of personal preference. I am not stating which thing is valid (as in any other thing I say;even more, tomorrow I can think different) but what I like more to see in game art, or 3d in general.

I mentioned the directx 8 bones and weights thing because seing that dbpro seems very related to it, and it's adding its advanced features, maybe that one -interests me specially- was also there, already.

BTW, good criticizing in art...is like pointing a bug in coding. Once I note is non wanted, I don't say more..but at first, who knows if it could help. Anyway, it is a kind of vice I have with my own work.

There are some guys which don't know the difference between a tree and quad, or can't do more uv than a plannar or a cilindric gizmo thing; still, loosing them isn't clever, as some know lots of things bout character creation and animation...they can learn the nitty gritty.

I've worked in mods, comercial projects, etc. And well, most of the time, I handled to know very well all of tech part in what could affect my work, not more, as me ending coding wasn't clever either Also as a web designer, and preferred to design in a 15", while all my design geeks besides called me fool for not asking for a 19"...I prefered to be all the time with those limits, being users standard monitor then.

So.. I understand the bones and weights (not only bones alla halflife, neither segmented like quake3-no bones, of course-) thing is possible, but or it is not easy, or simply is too soon to test it, or maybe people involved in projects are not using bones weights in the 3d packages (Milkhsape do not support weights). If dbpro allows it with not a huge hassle, then cool. It is just for infomation for the future, not for any specific project now.

I wasn't criticizing artistically or in other way that demo. Just that seeing it, I could have thought there is no other way to animate a human model than with segmenting parts and bones or hierarchies, in dbpro. I wanted to know if weights and one piece models are possible in dbpro, basically. After all, this weighted bones is a directx 8 and + feature.The output I can more easily produce is in this format.

I said fps, but didn't mean a whole fps kind of game, I meant old fps kind of inside scenery (thing about counter strike rooms in the house assault famous scenery) So I meant not the huge polys of a detailed landscape or something. Either with the complexities a whole game has. But a very, very simplistic shareware game, even just a tech demo. Do you remember..Virtua fighter? a simple arena, 2 players, martial arts and stuff. Or Tekken. But with some more detail in scenery (a room) and with the skin weighted anims (bones or simple interpolation alla gamestudio). No particles, no bumps, one light only, all the scenery welded into one only mesh, and mesh very clean to avoid problems.

All that to get speed there, plus the smooth animation. I extracted the player from "room demo" and it gave me 6000 frames. Possibly it's a problem in import into my software ,and it really has much little number...but I probably would keep interpolation frames much lower,(if improves performance) as martial arts are really enough quick, and I don't mind that fact. Well, you never know till you see For a techdemo, in case some day I make one (mostly for the fun of it) it may be one only player making movements, not more.

I am not planning anything, just trying to guess if it would be possible with dbpro...I must be true. I am attracted by the price, easy to buy, and no nags or limits in other aspects, among other stuff. I could buy or collaborate in a project, but in the future, who knows. Anyway, just passing by, in "look mode"

I am guessing that this is a new born, very powerfule tool, too young to have had time to allow many demos around.

Unreal Tournament 2003 has those weights, and it's sweet to mod there; anyway, I feel attracted for the possibility of releasing a demo exe who one totally owns(a mod is always a modification of someone else engine) Not now, however.

Thank you for the info.
Arrow
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 19:18
Never underestemate a good texture. For Deus EX 2, they make a 3000 poly modle and use 5 textures to make it look like 10000 ploygons. Right now that's a little far off now but you see my point. Low ploygon modles can look still look good. Look at "Vagrant Story" by Squaresoft for PS1. Every Model looked nice, they even added sprites for the mouthes so they lip the text on screen. Not a bad plot or gameplay. In fact they gameplay was really advanced, each time you struck any enemy that weapon would become stronger to that kind of moster but weaker to another. Anyway the point is that they made really good looking models and had a nice game too.

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...at least for now.
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 19:42
Yeah Vagrant Story was cool And you're right about Deus Ex the texturing's great. In my games I increase the fps seriously by adding 'lighting and shadowing effects' by texturing well

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Jan 2003 19:56
The fact of no demo's is more due to a fact that the product has had teething problems and alot of the older users (inlcuding myself) have been skeptical to upgrade until the product had viable enough bugs taken out to make development actually possible.

However now rather than having free time to sit back and develop tech demo's i'm back to doing what i always do and helping out in a majority of products.

alteast this time i know that the users are commited to finishing development which actually makes me want to help them alot more.

as far as the animation is conserned... the fact your so indignaeous about weighted bone animation is probably because your a 3ds max users.

And althought yes they can help in certain situations, without a physics engine to back up the usage of them - you're really just wanting to use something that you don't need to worry about.

As far as i'm conserned THE best modeller out to date is a Evil Bastard (aka Dave) ... because for the past 7-8years he has created things that people would never have believed possible within restrictions people just find unfeasibly low.
But this is the Rub - they are a million people out there who can put 2 polygons together and make something pretty ... its a whole different breed which is called the artist which is capable of what he is.

Those who are able to make models that look as sweet in engine as they do in a rendered picture... who put care and detail into the models they develop.
And most importantly have a friend who is capable of Skinning - because in my experience 2D and 3D just don't mix, you're either one or the other really.
I mean alot of modelers can make pleasing skins, and alot of skinners can make pleasing models ... however they're always just pleasing.

Has anyone seen games like the Two Towers and the Scorpion king? ... they're 3D artists should be ashammed for themselves (and the coders of the control system should hide in a very dark corner too!!)
It is clearly obvious from the first time you see the game on that the whol game has been brought to a decent level by the skinners - as graphics on a console are PARAMOUNT as this is what primarily sells, making sloppy models is just inexcusable.

But this is the case and point i've made over the past several years here.

NOT everyone can model, skin, program, design and animate!
theses ARE jobs at the end of the day, with pressures and requirements.
Alot of the newbies and people who feel they want to get into the industry are all about "oh i can program and i think games programming will be FUN!"

but the thing is where not there to have fun ... we're there to develop something worthy of competeing within the market. not something that will coast on a licence but actually entertain people and keep thier interest!

even those supposedly fun job, like games testing... i can guarentee all of you who believe that it is actually fun - having to play games playing and completeing the same area's over and over, learning a game inside out (some of which would normally bore the shit out of you. It just sucks the fun out of playing them.

if you enjoy something and want to go onto do this for a living, don't think some fancy degree will help - don't think knowing a single product inside out will.
Cause you've gotta be able to take the good with the bad and still love what you do!

Most here want to move on, but i'd say they're far from ready ... especially as look at what you put the DBS Team through about patches!
now imagine that you were on the DBS Team with like several hundred angry people with you and expressing it quite innopropriotly over something YOU DON'T have to do.

i know alot of people can't handle that - and i mean just look at alot of the comments that are made to me quite alot... there is no call for them people will just attack you for something.


god i'm tired and kinda just ranting now ... so i think i'm gonna have an earli nite - as in erm... now

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
howie
23
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Location: United States
Posted: 24th Jan 2003 23:31
Do you guys have any idea how long it took me to read the above posts? I'm ready for a nap.

It was good, informative reading.

If you say "you can" or if you say "you can't", your right.
Rob K
Retired Moderator
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Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: 25th Jan 2003 00:43
Ditto. You really need to learn how to compact your replies Raven (there must be a shorter way of saying those things).

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Raven Vegeta
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 25th Jan 2003 01:20
I hope someday I can also work on Eletronic Arts with him... so then I will have so much spare time to stay writting long messages like those ones here.What cool job
Nazgul
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Posted: 25th Jan 2003 01:40
Well, no I am not a Max user. I can handle it; the general stuff, I did modeled with and used several of its tools I needed. being a 2d guy in that job, they needed everybdoy for everything at the end, in that company.

And can tell you I hated it. I plainly do not like it. But I admit it is really powerful. Is a case love and hate, I think is the best platform for game art. I didn't model characters with it, I prefer to use certain free o cheap tools. The weights thing is due to I use Character FX. But..any big package have weights. Milkshape is a very good thing, but it was intended initially most for halfLife stuff. Many great halflife animations have been made with it. I'm respectful with that. It is just that if there's a better output possible now in pc users for games...

Weights are in Max since lots of years. But also in Lightwave, Truespace (since version 4, I think), Cinema4d, Maya, etc, etc. They are necesary for organic bending. The tricks used till now where done so as the PCs anyway could not handle many stuff...Now it is possible and many games in the market use that. RTCW has it its mds (not in md3 or mdc which also uses) format. I'm not sure but I think also jedi Knight and, also UnrealTournament 2003. keep in mind I am talikng about adding it not in an overloaded enviroment: Not in an standard fps full game, but in a very small project. I know if you add overload in some place it is due to you are not doing so in mother aspects.

Weighted animations have a lot of more posibilities of ending realistic, in my opinion. That has nothing to do with poly count, that's another thing.

And althought yes they can help in certain situations, without a physics engine to back up the usage of them - you're really just wanting to use something that you don't need to worry about.

Why? As I understand it, is just a way to make shoulders bend more naturally, knees bend better, etc. I have animated both ways, and indeed it makes a huge difference.
I am not angry because I don't find it..I would like to see this in action, in a real situation, not only in my avis or packages. But I'm not really obsesed with it. imho, it's much better way to animate real time models, only that... anyway I do not have the time and strengths to beguin a project.

Anyway, it is not supported by any of the game creation systems of this genre. But I have seen it's supported by several open source c++ engines. So if they took the time to code it, perhaps it must be fo some advantage..But however

And most importantly have a friend who is capable of Skinning - because in my experience 2D and 3D just don't mix, you're either one or the other really.

Raven Vegeta, believe me, my last intention would be to contradict you. But I have seen several guys and women that do so. And pretty well. It sounds ugly if I say it, but I am an illustrator, I texture/skin, model, uv map and animate. And can do it decently. If you learn seriously to draw all the rest can come later...with lots of years of hard effort. Mostly with uv mapping I was very near to desist in low pol learning.

Most game companies have their buddies working at hi pressure. No time to do fancy and great stuff, but earn the salary. At least in small companies. My little experience is in that enviroment. Though I got into wanting to do the great, my best learning was: do something that more or less works, that has a good level. No need to excell or you wont end it (and lose the job) That can be aplied to independent game making, it is safer to have something ended than an eternal pursuit of perfection. Anyway I'm not into a project, just would like to see my weighted anims in realtime. I have been used (sounds bad saying so ;D) mostly for 2d, but also quite much for modelling and texturing.

NOT everyone can model, skin, program, design and animate!

I can. Many modders can. But in general, they prefer to do just skinning, just modelling. The trend lately is that as the dot3 normals thing is going to do stuff that till now is done through good skinning, several skinners start to model. Not that hard, as many have a drawing background. What I said. I admit VERY few can model, skin, and animate. I took the time to learn all. I'm old, so not that strange

oh i can program and i think games programming will be FUN!

I have been in "the industry". It's not that magic. And didn't like the pressure. It made not much difference than not being. I just use to try to learn everything I can. Do not consider me a newbie in 3d or art . Not that I really worry if someone do, anyway...

Cause you've gotta be able to take the good with the bad and still love what you do!

You bet! And I decided I prefer an easy job

now imagine that you were on the DBS Team with like several hundred angry people with you and expressing it quite innopropriotly over something YOU DON'T have to do

Er...my lack of english skills makes me not understand you fully...Did I sound like complaining about something about Dbpro?? If I am not even a user! Hehe. Really, I have just curiosity. But i don't mind which direction it takes, I am just chatting about stuff. And I'm the last one to complain about a product...because..have had two jobs as technical support for Pc problems (well, and as web designer , and many other stuff, plus the game thing) I do know well how it fills. If it really sounded that way (but I am reading my posts, and I maybe writting in hungarian or something, I never refer to that, or complain, or something, really... :o ) I was just asking if something is possible with the package.

I have seem many flame wars in many forums. Seems that in this kind of enviroments (I have read lots of threads of Gamestudio, 3drad, blitz...as I said I'm curious about these products now ) and ppl talking in a certain way is something really common. But I never talk like that. Mostly would be a time loosing, in my opinion. I like to exchange information about 3d and techs stuff, but not much than that.

er...well..my posts where just questions, really. I have read the features up and down and I was unsure if it was possible or not. No more intention than getting information, as I always do...My other intention about posting in a forum is sharing tips. But by no means complaining. In a thread like those I go away at the first post in that direction

I am afraid I have same problem than Vegeta..didn't compact my message ... :o
Nazgul
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Joined: 20th Jan 2003
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Posted: 25th Jan 2003 01:45
NOT everyone can model, skin, program, design and animate!

Sorry. I read too quickly . I cannot code a single line. that thing not.
Kangaroo2
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Joined: 26th Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 25th Jan 2003 03:46
print "Hello my name's Nazgul"

There you go, now you CAN program a single line

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