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Geek Culture / Upgrading my computer

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stupid kid
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Posted: 25th Jan 2005 00:28 Edited at: 25th Jan 2005 00:29
My 128mb ati radeon 9500 pro died, it must of overheated or something, so i bought a 128mb nividia geforce mx4000 for $20 and it goes so slow some games like doom 3 almost arent playable. My old card played doom 3 great and it was 2 years old. So, I also want to upgrade and i was planning on buying a 256mb nVidia GeForce FX 5200 for $80, is this a good card for me to buy. I am wondering if i should buy this card because i read somewhere on this forum that all cheap 256mb video cards are bad.

I only have $400 to upgrade my computer and i also wanted to buy more ram, get a bigger harddrive, surround sound, a window in the side of my computer and maybe a dvd burner if i got extra cash. I have found that so far tigerdirect.com has the best prices on computer parts. I bought my whole computer from them two years ago.

My Computer
amd anthlon xp 2400+
128mb nvidia geforce mx4000
16x dvd drive
48x12x48x cd-rw drive
80gb hardrive
512mb of ram
windows xp
integrated audio
and currently i have a cheap 2.1 altec lansing speakers

what i was going to buy to upgrade my computer
*ultra 1024mb pc3200 ddr 400mhz memory with free ultra memory cooler
*cyber acoustics ca-4400 black 5-peice surround sound speaker system
-this surround sound speaker system is only $30
* nVidia GeForce FX 5200 / 256MB / AGP 8X / VGA / DVI / TV Out / Video Card

*hitachi 80gb hard drive

-all of those are from tiger direct and i want a $10 window for my computer case from frozencpu.com


Are those upgrades good, should i get a better graphics card, should i not get the speakers and the hraddrive and get even more ram. What should i do with $400 to upgrade my computer
CattleRustler
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Posted: 25th Jan 2005 00:40 Edited at: 25th Jan 2005 00:41
id forego all else and concentrate on the video card first - all else is secondary. The gffx 5200 ultra is shite quite frankly, I should know I have one but I just built a new machine. if your budget is 400 bucks you can easily spend more than half of that on a good video card, then i'd look into more ram. Remember its the gpu that counts for the video, not the ram. 128 is fine on the right gpu. I am sure Preston will be along to help

(PS I wont list me new specs as it will make most people cry )

IanG
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Posted: 25th Jan 2005 00:47
Quote: "128mb nividia geforce mx4000"



Quote: "256mb nVidia GeForce FX 5200"

nice card, i've had no probs with it - last thing i played on it was a trial of the original halo

Quote: "hitachi 80gb hard drive"

get a maxtor one 80gb 8mb buffer for around £36 from novatech

if you want better sound get a sound card - unless you've got a really good quality on board

Quote: "$10 window for my computer case"

why bother - you'll only see all the dust inside

Quote: "get even more ram"

a gig of ram should be enough

Used to be Phoenix_insane registered in september 2003 despite what the date says to the left <--
PC - amd athlon 2.0ghz, 512mb, GeForce FX 5200 128mb, 200gb, xp pro sp2
Preston C
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Posted: 25th Jan 2005 05:30
Quote: " I am sure Preston will be along to help"


Am I that predictable?

Well, yeah, like CR said, upgrade the GPU first. Then spend money on other stuff.

For what you listed for your own upgrades, I'm guessing you have an 8x AGP slot. Here is what I can suggest if you're going to stick with it:

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=14-145-109&depa=1 - NVIDIA GeForce 6200 ($122)

Your bottom line budget new-age card. Gives you all of the new stuff, great OpenGL processing power, and is powerful for cheap. It's been given the best budget video card rating on several sites, from the benchmarks I've seen can run Doom 3 at 1024x768 at max settings at 20 FPS, and you can waste your money on other stuff if you choose this one.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-135-160&depa=1 - NVIDIA GeForce 6600 GT ($210)

An even better card, and dubbed the Doom 3 card. Very powerful AGP card, that has a fast core and ram in it. Has all of the stuff the 6x00 series has, and is my personal choice for this matter.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-170-074&depa=1 - NVIDIA GeForce 6800 LE ($246)

Another powerful for cheap card. The only problem is, I've never seen any reviews for this card, only it's non LE counterpart, so I can't give an opinion for it. Lets just guess it's a watered down 6800.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-140-045&depa=1 - NVIDIA GeForce 6800 ($265)

The 6800 was the first of the new-age NVIDIA card that came out (if I'm correct) and it's a pretty powerful beast on it's own. The only problem with this one is it has half the ram its PCI-E counterpart has, but it is about $100 cheaper.

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-122-195&depa=1 - NVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT ($379)

The creme de la creme of the AGP NVIDIA cards. Has 256MB stuffed in it, a fast core, and the memory itself is fast. The only problem is it's price. Buying this will blow your budget, but hey, at least you'll have that $10 window you wanted

Now, all of these cards require a pretty hefty power supply. CR says that you'll need at least a 450 Watt power supply for your comp if you choose one of these bad boys, but lets suggest a 500 Watt, just in case. If you don't have one, then here is one meant for standard ATX Cases/Mobo's/Something:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-182-006&depa=1 - Roswill 500 Watt PSU ($17.99)

For Micro-ATX however, this is the best I can find (it's pretty expensive too, so maybe getting a new ATX case would be a good addition if you have Micro-ATX now):

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=17-104-124&depa=1 - A GPD 450 Watt PSU ($68.50)

Now, if you had a different processor (such as P4 or AMD 64), your board could probably be upgraded for PCI-Express, which means you could get cheaper, or better versions of the same cards. You would also be expanding your choices into ATI territory if you wanted (though, I'd stay with NVIDIA "The Way It's Meant to be Played" cards). But since you're stuck with your AMD Athlon XP processor (damn you socket A mobo's and your lacking of the PCI-Express slots) you'll be stuck with AGP until either of us finds a mobo which supports Socket A and PCI-Express

Now, you also want speakers and more ram for your compo. You want PC3200 at 400 Mhz. The only memory sticks I can see that are of PCx3200 at 400 Mhz are DDR2 SDRAM 240 Pin sticks. Those are nice and expensive, $89 for a 512 stick at newegg, and even more than double that for a 1GB stick. But here's the link for what I'm looking at:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-161-633&depa=1 - Wintec DDR2 PC2 3200 400 Mhz 240 Pin DDR SDRAM 512MB Stick ($89)

Now if you want two of these, you'll be set back $178, which should go fine with every GPU+New PSU except for the 6800 GT. That thingy wants your wallet all to itself

As for the hard drive, I personally wouldn't bother, since I've been using a 32GB for the past four years, and I'm fine with it...

...Though having to uninstall one 6GB game to install another one when I want to play it is a bit of a hassle.

Adding speakers to that, you'll be limited to anything costing $37 or less if you choose the 6800 and the two sticks of ram. This is the cheapest I found, I'm guessing its 5.1 surround sound, and that it comes with a subwoofer:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-161-633&depa=1 - DCT OG-560 5.1 Multimedia Speaker System ($23.59)

And with that, your budget is spent. But don't forget to limit yourself with tax and shipping if you can't spend any more than $400.

And thats all I've got to say. The rest is up to you.

Intel Celeron 1.3 Ghrz | 512 MB Ram | NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 128MB
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_Nemesis_
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Posted: 25th Jan 2005 06:48
Woow, if that's a forum post I hate to see how long your essays are Preston

Yeah, definately a gfx card upgrade first - I can't see you using more than a gig of ram.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 25th Jan 2005 06:58
Quote: "Now, all of these cards require a pretty hefty power supply. CR says that you'll need at least a 450 Watt power supply for your comp if you choose one of these bad boys"


Preston thats only in the genre of pci-express, I cant speak for the high end agp cards. The agp ones usually have a molex power connector on them so the get supplemented power plus the agp bus powering. The pci-express mobo's are different, they have a 24 pin power connector (not 20) on the main mobo, and theres a separate 4pin / 12volt connector on mobo which connects to a standard molex connector with only two pins used not 4. This puts the extra juice thru the mobo to the video and other devices, the pci-express video card has no molex connector on it. Again this was from my research for my particular setup (which all running stunningly btw). The card is the Asus Nvidia EN6800 - PCI-E 16x 256 DDR. Oh and btw, I am using 460w psu with cdrom,flop,2 sata drives - no power issues whatsoever.

Preston C
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Posted: 25th Jan 2005 07:22
Better to be safe than sorry then

Actually, they have the same listed minimum as the PCI-Express cards (350 Watts), so I when I chose the 500 Watt PSU up there, I wanted to make sure there was plenty of power for the other parts, and then some (just in-case he decided to switch the mobo to a PCI-Express one and didn't want to buy a new case). But yeah, thanks for the correction.

Quote: " Woow, if that's a forum post I hate to see how long your essays are Preston"


Raven has done larger posts, though I feel most of em were filled with hot gas than anything useful (also with many things that are debated in the thread and the thread eventually leading to lockdom).

But yeah, my reports/essays can get pretty long. I did a 24-Page report on my family's water consumption over a period of one week, detailed on what happened when, experiment procedure, converting measurements, etc. I never got a higher grade in my life

Intel Celeron 1.3 Ghrz | 512 MB Ram | NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 128MB
MSVC++ .Net 2003 | Wings3D | CharacterFX | Gimp v2.0
Prayne de crabug ahm rinedere be-yogt iglo kes gron
stupid kid
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Posted: 25th Jan 2005 07:36 Edited at: 25th Jan 2005 07:36
My computer has a mid-tower case with only two case fans and the power supply is 350 watts. I want agp 8x, my computer is 2 years old so i dont have pci-express.

I am thinking about buying the NVIDIA GeForce 6600 GT.
But, is a $200 128mb video card really better than a $200 256mb video card.

Also since my power supply is only 350 watts, do i have to upgrade that and should i put another fan in my computer?

I can buy a new motherboard and get an amd anthlon 64, is that a good idea?

And it doesnt have to be under $400, it can be a little over, I really have about $430 to spend on it.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 25th Jan 2005 09:43
Quote: "I am thinking about buying the NVIDIA GeForce 6600 GT.
But, is a $200 128mb video card really better than a $200 256mb video card."


Yes it can be but it depends on the two actual models youre talking about. To use geforce 4 as an example, id take a 128 meg TI gpu over any of the MX 256 any day of the week - because the gpu on the the ti was that much better (this was just an example, I dont remember if mx had 256 mem or not)

Which cards are you actually talking about?

stupid kid
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Posted: 25th Jan 2005 09:52
I dont think there is a 256mb mx.

Quote: "Which cards are you actually talking about?"


He recommended the NVIDIA GeForce 6600 GT for $210 and it is just 128mb and for $210 i would be expecting to get at least 256mb. 2 years ago i bought a 128mb video card for $200 and it played every game at decent frame rates even doom 3, but it died, must of overheated, but i dont know exactly what went wrong with it.
Preston C
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Posted: 25th Jan 2005 10:21
Memory amount doesn't matter after 128MB IMHO, but the memory speed and core speed do. Hence the GT version of the 6600, fast core and memory. That and the quality of the GPU itself. I've had my NVIDIA GeForce 5200 for a while now, and it only has 128MB, but it'll still run Doom 3 at playable rates, and I'm sure if it had less memory, it wouldn't hurt it much.

Intel Celeron 1.3 Ghrz | 512 MB Ram | NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 128MB
MSVC++ .Net 2003 | Wings3D | CharacterFX | Gimp v2.0
Prayne de crabug ahm rinedere be-yogt iglo kes gron
CattleRustler
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Posted: 25th Jan 2005 11:59
yeah, i have that card (5200 ultra 128) in my old machine but my processor was crap as far as new games (p3-800 e) so I had to finally upgrade. I think I will have a party for my old war-horse of a machine which is now in the second office and is relegated to backup storage and SQL Server

stupid kid
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Posted: 26th Jan 2005 05:13
So u both had that fx5200 card and u both think i should get something better, i just really thought that a 256mb video card would be better than a 128mb.

But, to use those cards u recommended, do i need to get a more powerful powersupply and is 2 case fans enough to keep the computer cool because i can add an extra fan for really cheap.
Preston C
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Posted: 26th Jan 2005 05:56
Quote: "But, to use those cards u recommended, do i need to get a more powerful powersupply and is 2 case fans enough to keep the computer cool because i can add an extra fan for really cheap."


If your power supply isn't at least 450 Watts, I'd suggest getting a new one. I have a link to a good 500 Watt one in my really big post. And as for the fans...well I can't tell you anything on that one, but I'm guessing two case fans should be plenty.

Intel Celeron 1.3 Ghrz | 512 MB Ram | NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 128MB
MSVC++ .Net 2003 | Wings3D | CharacterFX | Gimp v2.0
Prayne de crabug ahm rinedere be-yogt iglo kes gron
stupid kid
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Posted: 26th Jan 2005 06:52
is there a way to tell exactly how big of a powersupply i need and the link in your post is wrong it brings me to a 350w power supply.

Also my friend says not to get the extra gig of ram and only get an extra 512mb of ram because there no need for a computer to have over a gigabyte of ram, is this true?
Ilya
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Posted: 26th Jan 2005 07:11 Edited at: 26th Jan 2005 07:11
Yes, unless it's a buisy server.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
Preston C
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Posted: 26th Jan 2005 07:13
Huh, thats an odd one, I swear it was 500 Watt when I posted it

Oh well, heres a replacement:
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-162-108&depa=1

And as for the ram thing, yeah, you don't need more than 1GB IMHO. That's just silly.

Intel Celeron 1.3 Ghrz | 512 MB Ram | NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 128MB
MSVC++ .Net 2003 | Wings3D | CharacterFX | Gimp v2.0
Prayne de crabug ahm rinedere be-yogt iglo kes gron
CattleRustler
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Posted: 26th Jan 2005 08:32
yup a pc with a great cpu and vid card will do just fine with 512 or 1 gb of ram. if youre not getting the latest pci-e than the power supply might not need to be 450-500w, see what the card manf says. Or did we discuss this?

Preston C
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Posted: 26th Jan 2005 08:33
We did, I just like repeating myself

Intel Celeron 1.3 Ghrz | 512 MB Ram | NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 128MB
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Phaelax
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Posted: 26th Jan 2005 14:45
Quote: "get a maxtor one 80gb 8mb buffer for around £36 from novatech"


maxtor? ppl actually trust those still? I wish IBM still made their drives, those worked great. I stick to WD and Seagate.

Save money on the ram and only buy and extra 512mb, the total 1gb will be enough for ya. Put that dough towards a graphics card.

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stupid kid
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Posted: 27th Jan 2005 04:42 Edited at: 27th Jan 2005 08:09
I am ordering surround sound, 6600gt, 500w power supply, 512mb of ram, 80gb hardrive and unreal tournament 2004

I got a better surround sound system than what he recommened because the one he recommended looked cheap and it was black, i have no black on my computer, so it really wouldnt look good. The one i ordered looks better.

I was either going to get the 256mb 9800pro or the 128mb 6600gt but I decided on the 6600gt because i like nvidia better than ati and the reviews i read said the 6600gt was better.

I got a new powersupply even though i probally didnt need one because i am planning on adding more ram, a dvd burner, a tv tuner, a real sound card, bigger harddrive and a flash media card reader in the future. So i will need more power then. Well, i dont know if i will really ever add all that to my computer but i would like to.

I only got 512mb of ram instead of 1 gig because you all said i didnt need more than a gig so i got 512mb because it is cheaper.

The hardrive i ended up buying was a hatachi becuase it had the best average seek time for the price.

I got unreal tournament because i had money left over,

Thank You for helping me to choose what i needed to buy to make my computer better

edit: They ran out of the 80gb harddrive i wanted so i ended up not getting unrealtournament and getting a 120gb harddrive instead
stupid kid
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Posted: 1st Feb 2005 08:25
I got all the stuff in the mail today. I installed everything in my computer and its running great. My computer is alot quieter now too because my old power supply was loud. Doom 3 looks great at 1280x1024 with the video quality set to high.

But the speakers sound horrible, i expected that because it was so cheap. The speakers are very small and there is some sort of background noise it makes, its like a fuzzy noise. And Windows doesnt detect the second hard drive.

So if anyone knows how to get windows to detect the harddrive please tell me and also i have made another post about my tv tuner. please help me to get the tv tuner to work too.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 1st Feb 2005 08:43
make sure the bios is recognizing the second hard drive.

stupid kid
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2005 03:55
I opened up my computer today when i got home from school to check to make sure the harddrives cables were in all the way, i thought that maybe the cables or wires or whatever they are called werent in all the way and that might be the problem with the harddrive. I found out the cables where in just fine. When i opened up the computer i just tried to push the cables in a little more, i didnt do anything else, there was no static electricity or nothing. So i put the case back together and plug everything in and turn on my computer and then i turned on my speakers. My computer starts up as normal and i wanted to check bios to make sure it detected the drive, so i pressed the delete key when it was on the screen that says press delete to go to setup. After i pressed the delete key the computer screen went blank and then the computer sounded like everyhting turned off, the fans and everything and then it sounded like it turned on again, but i couldnt see anything on the screen, and it turned on and off about three times and then it stopped. I waited a little while and then i tryed to turn it on again, i pressed the power button a few times but it wont turn on. My computer wont turn on.

Was the new power supply what caused this problem, Can the computer turning on and off suddenly damage any other parts. What should i do. My computer worked fine except for the harddrive yesterday. Is there anything other that the powersupply that could have caused this problem. Nothing happens when i press the power button please help me.
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2005 04:10
stupid kid
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2005 06:09 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2005 06:28
What do u think caused the problem, the only two things i can think of is can either be the motherboard or it can be the powersupply. I think that most likely it is the powersupply because i just put in my computer two days ago and my mother board worked for over 2 years and i also think it is the powersupply because the powersupply was so cheap. Later i am going to take the things out of my computer that i dont need like my new harddrive and the tv tuner and put my old powersupply back in and see if it works with the old powersupply but im not sure if my old powersupply is powerful enough to power my whole computer now that i added so much stuff to it.

What do u think caused the problem. If it is the powersupplies fault i will email the company and get a replacement and see what they say.

edit: Also the computer doesnt make any beeping noises when i press the button to tell me what is wrong, nothing happens when i press the button
CattleRustler
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2005 07:01 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2005 07:02
is the new psu for the same mobo/cpu setup, like p3 or p4 etc?
did you correctly connect all the funny little wires that they refuse to standardize in to a unified plug, you know, the ones for power switch, hdd led, reset sw etc etc?

stupid kid
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2005 07:16
The box for the power supply says that it supports all intel celeron and pentium 4 motherboards and it's compatible with amd anthlon /64 bit xp. I have an amd anthlon xp 2400+ so it should work and it worked yesterday.

And on my computer the power button, the rest button and the led light in the front of the case connect to the motherboard, not the power supply, but yes they are plugged in. I will try to use the old powersupply and see if it turns on then, i am also going to email the powersupply company later to see what they say.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2005 08:33
Quote: "And on my computer the power button, the rest button and the led light in the front of the case connect to the motherboard, not the power supply"


as they do on all pc's, I was under the impression you swapped the mobo too, are you saying just the psu was changed, along with some other devices?

ionstream
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2005 08:58
You know, there's usually a switch in the back of the power supply, are you sure that it's on?

stupid kid
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2005 11:02
Quote: "are you saying just the psu was changed, along with some other devices?"

I put in a tv tuner, i put this in a few days before i installed anything else, i couldnt get working drivers for it but it worked while this was installed. I put in 512 more megabytes of ram so now i have 1 gig. I put in an extra 120gb harddrive, i put in a new powersupply, i intalled a 6600gt video card and i got a new surround sound system.

Quote: "Quote: "And on my computer the power button, the rest button and the led light in the front of the case connect to the motherboard, not the power supply"

as they do on all pc's"


I thought it was like that on all computer but the way u said it i thought u were asking if i connected them to the powersupply.

Quote: " You know, there's usually a switch in the back of the power supply, are you sure that it's on?"


I know there is a switch back there and it is turned on.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2005 12:11
if you keep everything else in place but put back your old vid card, does she come up? Does the 6600gt have its own molex connector? Is it connected to a power source?

stupid kid
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2005 19:42
The video card is connected to the powersupply, when i start up my computer i can usually hear all the fans and stuff, nothing turns on now.
CattleRustler
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2005 21:24
what about if you put back your old card? does it boot?

blanky
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2005 02:11
See if you can get your hands on a voltmeter, and check that there's actually electricity coming out of the output of the power supply, because if something else's knackered, then *SOMETHING* would happen...

If no electricity comes out, try changing the fuses in the plug and the PSU (if any), and check if the plug where you plug everything in is actually working.

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stupid kid
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2005 05:06
My computer works, yeah

I removed some stuff that isnt neccesary for the computer to run, like extra harddrives, extra dvd-rom drives, tv tuner cards, and i switched to using the mx-4000 because it doesnt need to connect to the powersupply. I then put in my old powersupply which is only 350 watts, thats why i removed all the stuff because i didnt think the old power supply is powerful enough to power my computer with all the new stuff i added in it. My computer runs now and i think it is because i switched the powersupply but i am not sure so i will test everything i removed and make sure i know what caused the problem, and then i will return the broken parts and I will get a new powersupply that is made by a better company, a company i have actually heard of this time.

yeah, my computer works
Dot Merix
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Posted: 4th Feb 2005 01:15
It might also be a smart idea to put one item in at a time to test, instead of installing everything, running it, and praying to god that all of it works



WindowsXP Home(Service pack 2), Athlon XP 2400+(2.1Ghz), 1GIG Ram, Ati Radeon 9800Pro 128MB.
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Posted: 5th Feb 2005 09:01
I think you should get a Raedon 9200. It was pretty cheap when I got it, and it can run 2046x1879 on a regular monitor. For some reason an LCD cannot support anything over 1280x1024. Any game that goes slow, just turn it down to 800x600.

When life gives you lemons...blow them away with an M4A1!
Preston C
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Posted: 5th Feb 2005 09:12 Edited at: 5th Feb 2005 09:16
...

He already has an AGP 6600 GT, a new generation card, and you're suggesting a card that is outdated and doesn't even support DirectX 9.0? Why should he do that? It would be a stupid move. He just needs that replacement power supply for his comp and all should (hopefully) be fine (since the one I suggested was a POS, bad move on my part).

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stupid kid
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 03:03
yeah, i already got a new video card and the card i had before is better than the 9200, i had a 9500pro, lol

and after i get my replacement powersupply my computer should be running great
stupid kid
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Posted: 9th Feb 2005 07:15 Edited at: 9th Feb 2005 07:17
My new powersupply still hasnt come in and i am sorry for double posting

but, my sound quality on my computer is horrible and i want to know if u think upgrading to a new sound card would fix that or if u think its my speakers. And then if u think it is the sound card can u please reccomend a good affordable sound card. and make sure it is available at a regular store like bestbuy circuit city or compusa because i dont want to have to order it over the internet

I will watch dvd and play games with this sound card so make sure it is good at all that stuff.

I was looking at the
audigy 2 value
sound blaster live 24-bit
turtle beach santa cruz

The cobra aw-850 and the aw-850d from newegg look good at a good price but i dont want to order anything off the internet

And whats a good computer game, that has great graphics ,so it can look amazing on my new computer, that is $30 or less. I was thinking about getting unreal tournament 2004

edit: its not a new computer, i meant my upgraded computer
blanky
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Posted: 11th Feb 2005 18:57
Get a pair of headphones, and plug 'em in to your computer (round the back, the CD-Rom one is often not plugged in by manafacturers). Test' em then. Personally, I've had no problems with my onboard.

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