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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Can I request something for patch 4?

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randi
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Posted: 19th Jan 2003 03:56
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I have said this before and I am going to say it again...

My models look so much better in DBclassic.
Someone told me that it has to do with smoothing, and that makes sense to me.

Can we have smoothing or at least a command that allows smoothing?

Look at my models...

DB PRO


DB


The DB one looks so much better.

Please fix this.

Randi
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randi
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Posted: 19th Jan 2003 03:58
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Of course the images don't work...
This forum hates me.

DBpro

http://home.att.net/~thetowers/DBproGirl.jpg

DB
http://home.att.net/~thetowers/DBclassicGirl.jpg
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ZomBfied
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Posted: 19th Jan 2003 04:18
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Try setting the ambient light higher like 80+ That will get rid of some of those harsh poligonal shadows.

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Necrym
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Posted: 19th Jan 2003 12:30
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THis request will be in patch 5,6 not patch 4 i dont think as the new 3d pipeline DBO format is being introduced as the foundation of all 3d graphics control - and beleive me its fast. So far on my tests 150% speed increase with over 200+ objects. So get your seatbelt on

Watch the bouncing cursor - now in 3d
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n3t3r453r
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Posted: 19th Jan 2003 12:41
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Strange... I have no problems with it ??? DB and DBP has the same qualify on my PC.
And about anti-aliasing - read tutorial, I saw there some words about it.
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Rob K
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Posted: 20th Jan 2003 00:43
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@Randi - Can you post the model on your site so that I can test it?

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 20th Jan 2003 01:16
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I don't have problems as extreme as that! Not sure why you get THAT level of difference

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brittd
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Posted: 20th Jan 2003 05:20
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I second Dark Shader. point me to your model and I will test it with Darkbasic Pro with Patch4. They have changed a lot with the New Patch dealing with 3d objects and how they are displayed.
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randi
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Posted: 20th Jan 2003 07:56
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Ok...
Here you go guys.
See if I am doing something wrong or what.

I used the DB tool to turn the 3DS into a X.
Maybe that is it.
Maybe that is why it works on DB and not DBpro.

You would think it would be the same.

here is the X file and bitmaps...

http://home.att.net/~thetowers/girl.zip


Randi
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Nazgul
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Posted: 20th Jan 2003 09:42
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Hello Randi and forum, I'm new.

Randi downloaded your file. It lost smoothing. It's not a Dbpro fault, it's the converter.

Or maybe already lost the smoothing once exported as 3ds. I can easily make their normals smooth back, but haven't got any place to upload. Someone just could bring them back in Milkshape or whatever and give it back to you.

BTW, http://www.imatowns.com/xelagot/links.html. (just scroll down a bit) Not sure if it does it well with smoothing, though.

There you'll find a 3ds to x converter. Don't know if it will do. Other tools could be of use: Deep Exploration, Milkshape, Max, Lithunwrap, Ultimate Unwrap, etc.

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Nazgul
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Posted: 20th Jan 2003 09:53
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hum...can't edit posts? well, no problem...Randi, don't use 3ds2x...it loose bones or something...(how did it had bones being a 3ds?) better you open directly the x file you have in Max or Milkshape and assign smoothing again...It's pretty easy once you know it

Hum...even more: it didn't lost the smoothing info. But it seems all the vertex are unwelded. I made a weld with threshold...and voilà! smooth shading again. Happens all the time. If you or a friend have Milkshape, just is a matter of "select all", and menu "vertex" , "weld together", if I remmeber well.

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randi
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Posted: 20th Jan 2003 20:10
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Doesn't DBpro and Classic transfer 3DS objects into X as it loads?
Wouldn't it be the same thing?
I am asking, I don't know.

I have had trouble with loading 3DS objects and having them come out in the right way.
That is why I would transfer them to X.


By the way, I made the model with Max 3.

Randi
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 20th Jan 2003 20:25
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Yes DarkBASIC converts 3DS files into the X format internally when it loads them. There is a 3DS to X convertor included on the DB CD-Rom which uses the same routine as DB internally. Converting to X before hand will speed this up and any artifacts that appear after your conversion will also appear in your game.

DBPro/Patch4 does away with this totally by converting to DBO format on load.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Jan 2003 20:54
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this is an interesting problems isn't it ... have noticed this in the past with 3DS formats converted to X they loose all Smoothing information - and DarkBasic has a habit of ignoring smooth information and just doing a 90° shade

this is probably most likely a bug in DarkBasic or you have 'set normalisation on' something like that.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
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randi
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Posted: 20th Jan 2003 22:00
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Ah Ha!
I was right.
It would make no difference if I used a 3DS object or used the converter with DB.
Which is what I was using.

I guess I will just wait and see if patch 4 does anything.

Randi
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Nazgul
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Posted: 20th Jan 2003 22:01
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However, ...3ds often loose its smoothing value or groups, in softwares exports. But it seems it actually is not the case, the smoothing value is yet there, as once I welded it recovered the smooth shading totally. So, what is happening there is like it is getting broken in a per face way or something...If not so, I wouldn't understand..If so, it could be of help for developer's fix it..till then, if there a command internal to weld vertices inside Db pro...

Anyway, I have never used DarkBasic Pro, or classic.Or anyother. I'm just a curious guy .
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Nazgul
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Posted: 20th Jan 2003 22:04
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oops. Cross posting...

See you did post, Randi...then if you import (don't know the way dbpro or classic works) directly a 3ds from max it does it. If you use a 3ds 2 x converter, it also does it. If the 3ds file you could view it in anyother software then , and it had the shading ok...then it is that internally dbpro is breaking the model in pieces. You don't notice, but when a weld is done it get fixed So vertices are in the same place but not welded. That's my humble opinion
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Dmitry K
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Posted: 20th Jan 2003 22:42
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Try it.

Load Object "girl.x", 1
Set Object Ambient 1, 0

It's works fine for me.

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randi
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Posted: 20th Jan 2003 23:37
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Setting the object to ignore the ambient light does work, but I wouldn't say that it works fine.

It still does not look like DBclassic.
And what if I wanted to use the ambient light?
Then my object is not right.

With the ambient off it looks like a cartoon.
Which is kind of a interesting effect, but is not what I want.

Why can't it look like DBclassic in DBpro?


DBpro without ambient light


http://home.att.net/~thetowers/ambientGirl.jpg

Randi
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Nazgul
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Posted: 21st Jan 2003 00:21
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yes...It won't do. It's cool for toon...with some more touches.

Indeed, what you need is to get that model welded, as I told you. Don't know how dbpro works, but I have already fixed that, the moment you did put the zip to download. I did fix it not loosing animation/bones nor textures in a direct x file like the one you posted. But the sad thing is i cannot upload nowhere...Is there a way to attach a file to the forum?

DBclassic converter, or internal management of it, probably didn't unweld those.
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Nazgul
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Posted: 21st Jan 2003 00:25
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I meant, it did unweld them.
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Nazgul
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Posted: 21st Jan 2003 01:27
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well, these things (free online storage-sharing) are handy, aren't they...I always have one...it use to be needed one way or the other.

Go and download here : http://www.sharemation.com/troll/girl2.zip

It must work for you the link as I put it. hey, both the girl and the wave are fixed, saved the x files corrected. But...though it's preserving well bones, there wasn't animation info in the files. Just the x file, the model with her bones. I think you must no have problems now.

And I only charge you 5000000$, hehe. It was easy to do, so what the heck
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randi
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Posted: 21st Jan 2003 01:43
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Well thanks Nazgul, but I don't want to have to come to you every time I need something.
The fact still remains that it works fine in Classic but not in Pro.
And I think this should be fixed.

Anyway, I don't know what you are talking about getting the model welded.
Do you mean linked?
If so, as a Max file it is linked.
But it doesn't matter if it is or not after exported, because I will just use the animation.
Of course...
Their is no animation yet, nor do I use bones.

And I don't see what any of that has to do with smoothing.
Obviously it has lost it's smoothing properties.

But like I said...
I am doing the model just like I have always done them.
Made my Model in 3D studio Max and exported it as a 3DS file.
I then use the converter, which comes with DB classic, to convert to X.

Yes... I could use some other programs and go in and fix it, or export it as an X, or what ever you were saying...
But why do I have to?
And can we change this?
That's all I want to know.

Randi
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Barliesque
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Posted: 21st Jan 2003 05:41
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As it happens, I've already communicated with Lee about edge smoothing which is expected to arrive in Patch 5. When it does come, it'll beat the pants off of DB classic for flexibility and effectiveness.

Right now though, they're concerned with sorting out some of the more fundamental issues of rendering--That's what patch 4 is about, and that's probably a great deal more work than any of the multitude of other issues which will surely follow closely behind in patch 5.

I think the best thing will be for you to procede as you have done, and be patient that the edge smoothing you need will be in place within the next few months.
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randi
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Posted: 21st Jan 2003 05:47
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Thank you Barliesque.
That is what I was wanting to hear.

Randi
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Nazgul
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Posted: 21st Jan 2003 10:18
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Surely I did not explain well.

With welded I meant a different thing. One thing is that your model, made by isolated parts (arm, leg..) is linked via bones or simple Max links. And a different one is that each part (ie: the arm) seems to have suffered an unweld for each polygon. That happened to me in other packages. The polygons get like un-joined, if you understand me. They are in the same place, but not welded (then this should also be duplicating the vertex number).That makes it not able to show the smoothing(but it is NOT lost.How then it would ever could came back, once I welded, then?). Or that is what I suspect it happened.

Hey, I don't know how dbpro works, but the only thing I did was load it into ultimate unwrap, weld the model and save as a directx file. I checked that the bones weren't lost.
That simple. And if all the business is that you at the end need a workable direct x file with bones/links, then you could do perfectly with this software, Ultimate Unwrap. You can also make with Milkshape. But I guess that as what you use is Max 3, your best choice is simply use a directx exporter for max 3, till the patch comes. So you don't have to wait those months. That's what I'd do, at least.

Here:
http://www.pandasoft.demon.co.uk/Files/3dsmax3/PandaDXExport3.dle
http://www.effectware.com/download/max3/xout.zip

The second one, xout, is maybe the one to retain the linked/boned structure you made. Anyway, seems to be always problems with Max directx exporters...I haven't ever used them.

Here http://www.sharemation.com/troll/conv3ds.zip I put you a ms-dos utility to convert 3ds to x. It is everywhere on inet, but this I extracted from directx 9 sdk. It should work also. But read well the readme.txt and the parameters you may have to use.

I think your best choice is have a solid directx exporter from ur Max3, given dbpro seems to work a lot with dx.

For what you write, you seem to be just linking parts in max. I don't know if you also made an animation or something in max, but your girl.x didn't have any.Or maybe yes...In any case, it should not have lost it in my proccess.

If you get working fully one of those directx plugins with Max, or handle well with the DOS utility, I think you solve many problems right now. Oh, btw, that model was to high in number of polygons

well..if you have never messed much with Max plugins installations, maybe all this is too much for you...If so, then just wait for the patch

Even if the patch would come tomorrow. I myself like to have control over the formats and several ways to achieve stuff. I'm giving you here plenty of them. That way you probably wont have to wait months. Even though once with patch 5 it will totally rock, IMHO.
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randi
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Posted: 21st Jan 2003 22:05
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Nazgul:

Ok... I don't know what you are talking about with the welding.
And the model never did have any bones or any animation to it.

One thing you seem to keep missing is...
I have worked with both DB and DBpro.
I know how to make a model and how to make it work with DB products.

I have used the converter with direct X.
It works, but not always like I wanted it to.

I have used 'X' exporters for Max with very little success.

I have used the converter, that comes with DB, and have never had any problems until now.
Their converter is good and works just fine with DB.

Their has already been a post telling me that Lee knows about this issue.

So basically I will just keep using DB until Pro has all the bugs ironed out.
One thing I do know...
Is if I have to use more than one product to do a model, it will just create more problems for me.

Anyway...
I just play with these products because of an old boyfriend who got me started.
It's not like I really care or am trying to create the worlds greatest game.

I am far to busy for that.

Randi
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Nazgul
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Posted: 21st Jan 2003 22:35
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oh, ok..
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Viktor
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Posted: 22nd Jan 2003 17:47
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Hope, the crash bug at Copy Bitmap (ZERO to any bitmap) will be sorted out in Patch 4.

PC: AMD 1200/512 Mb SDR/GF2MX Dual Display/Win2000, 19" Monitor
ZX: Spectrum 128+ Customized version.
Current Project: BMP2SCR Pro (with LDIR)
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