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FPSC Classic Product Chat / WHAT???????????????

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glyvin101
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 13:22
there are a few things that make no sence to me.

1)there will be no way to save/load games in the ea version with check points will u be able to quite the game shut down ur pc and then play from the same spot again.(if so that is cool if not that sucks)

2)why will there not be any demos avalible before the release of this software for the cost of it i want to see what it is capable of that videos can not show.
ie:AI how they interact, controls

3)will there be a demo of the software before it is realized as there is for DB Pro

4) (please don't lock for this comment) Rob k said he was going to release a video of the better AI because i think that it does not look good.(not even ok)

thx and these were not meant to offend they were meant to inquire so plz dont lock this thread.

thanks
Coldnews
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 17:03
Quote: "
1)there will be no way to save/load games in the ea version with check points will u be able to quite the game shut down ur pc and then play from the same spot again.(if so that is cool if not that sucks)"

not shut down your PC and start again, no. Only if you lose a life will you resart at the last checkpoint. There will be a Save/Load feature in V1, and I think that most people can live without it until then, as their games wont be finished.
Quote: "
2)why will there not be any demos avalible before the release of this software for the cost of it i want to see what it is capable of that videos can not show.
ie:AI how they interact, controls"

As far as I know there will be a demo for it. But bear in mind that this is still the EA version and not the finished product, so technically it IS a demo. The reason for there not being a demo before release is the fact that they are still making it. There are bugs to fix and things like that.
Quote: "
3)will there be a demo of the software before it is realized as there is for DB Pro"

see above
Quote: "(please don't lock for this comment) Rob k said he was going to release a video of the better AI because i think that it does not look good.(not even ok)"

This is completely down to RobK what he does. He doesnt have any duty to anyone at all. He released videos of the Beta version of FPSCreator, and things are constantly improving. The speed on my machine has doubled in the past 3 Betas. And I (personally) will not judge anything until the final V1 version. Because TGC (as I ALWAYS say) really want to listen to user opinions and get there product marketable and useable.
I think that If you are unsure about whether the EA version is going to be right for you, then wait to hear other peoples opinions. So many people come and say "if FPSCreator doesnt have X feature then I'm not buying it", then dont buy it! Everyone has SO many opinions on what makes a good FPS game: physics, storytelling, terrain, melee weapons etc... ultimately only TGC have the power to change things because of user opinion.
heres my opinion: FPScreator is a great application to quickly and easy make quality FPS games. I personally dont see too much of a problem with the AI, it works well enough for the EA version and I think that maybe a few little tweaks should be made for V1.

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Rob K
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 19:49
Usually I lock any topics with titles like "WHAT?????" on sight. Don't do it again.

Quote: "4) (please don't lock for this comment) Rob k said he was going to release a video of the better AI because i think that it does not look good.(not even ok)"


I'm still not happy with the AI in the latest beta, so I'm not going to create any new videos yet.
Don't expect miracles though, the AI is going to be fairly simplistic compared with most games you are used to playing. Games which often had one programmer working on them whoose sole task was AI.

Quote: "2)why will there not be any demos avalible before the release of this software for the cost of it i want to see what it is capable of that videos can not show."


Answered in other threads.

Quote: "1)there will be no way to save/load games in the ea version with check points will u be able to quite the game shut down ur pc and then play from the same spot again.(if so that is cool if not that sucks)"


In the current EA beta there is no way to Save or Load games.


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uman
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 20:04
Coldnews,

A concise, honest, thoughtful and accurate reply to genuine question. And very respectful considering that most answers to the questions were either available in the FAQ or via using common sense.

A very diplomatic post which shows you to be an excellent communicator when need be.

You get my vote.

The only thing that glyvin101 will not be able to deduct from other peoles answers will be making a valued judgement on the product from other peoples opinions as they are as you have stated, many and varied and are widely debated without agreement.

Without an official demo of some sort, potential users will have to rely on playable demos made by users following release - that will show them what FPSC is capable of, but not how it performs as a program.
Van B
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 20:11
Quote: "Games which often had one programmer working on them whoose sole task was AI."
Teams in some cases!

I think it's worth pointing out that on simple rooms, the AI is a lot better, the more there is to get in the way of the enemies, the more they struggle, that's true of any game engine. I mean - anyone ever played a FPS where there wasn't some way to trick the AI, hide from it, kill it without it seeing you, AI is a tough cookie to crack, and honestly I don't think we could have expected more from the EA version. I'm not sure which beta version it was, but I added some skeletons onto a simple level, and I ran past - they spotted me, and chased me down the corridor without flynching once. I know that's a pretty basic test, but it shows a lot of promise, once the glitches are taken care of, more complex behaviour can be supported.


Van-B


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uman
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 20:56
Rob K,

In the original videos released by Lee of FPSC and the editor in action - Enemy AI seemed to me to be in a much better condition than - shown in the latest videos released. Though to be fair in Lees vidoes there were not many objects to negociate around inside the levels if any. However there awareness of the player was a gigantic order of magnitude better than in the latest videos, where most seemed to have their back to the player and didnt know the player was even there, when they did they had difficulty in targeting the player around obstacles and manouvering to attack - one at least wanted to climb the walls acontiuously and was obviously completely lost. i.e. his pathfinding/player tageting capability was erronous.

In the latest videos the AI, pathfinding and collision is shown as being not worthy of FPSC - thats the best way I can describe it without being offensive. FPSC being obviously capable of creating good games will be let down if the current stae of AI, collision and pathfinding does not exceed that shown in those latest videos.

Can you say whether or not the quality of the AI has deteriorated since Lees earlier videos as In those, tyhough difficult to adjudge, the enemy pathfinding and player awareness at least seemed to be as expected and at least acceptable.

"I'm still not happy with the AI in the latest beta, so I'm not going to create any new videos yet.
Don't expect miracles though, the AI is going to be fairly simplistic compared with most games you are used to playing. Games which often had one programmer working on them whoose sole task was AI".

Your continued statements tend to worry me - as I cant ascertain whether these are just to if you like prepare people for a genuine fact that the AI is not going to be AAA title quality or its a warning that the AI is messed up, that enemies AI is bugged and are likely to running around like headless chickens.

You actually say you are not happy with the AI which seems to confirm that its not good enough in your opinion - thats what you are saying isnt it? and you are I am quite sure are capable of making a valued and respectable assessment.

If you are unable to then there must be someone who can make a video showing the current state of AI capability before the EA release so I at least can make a valued judgement as to whether or not to purchase.

There are so many statements floating around regarding the AI, about bugs and fixes, potential purchasers need to know what the actual condition of it is. As there is no Demo then we buy blindly and this issue is very important to me at least.

Personally my game requires enemies. Their role in something that is called First Person Shooter Creator is paramount cos thats what its all about isnt it - FPS.

AI is the single most important aspect of a shooter - its not a racing game its all about player VS enemies. Why then if the AI is known to be erronous or has deteriorated have TGC not given it more priority?

First Person Shooter with poor AI, enemy collision and pathfinding seems to be completely contradictory to me.

Please make us a video of the AI or at least continue to tell us whats going on with it and report its condition to address concerns.

You say that you are not happy with the AI. What exactly does that mean and why are you not happy with it?

1. Do the enemies follow waypoints correctly?

2. Do they get stuck on walls, or other world blocks?

3. Is obstacle avoidance working i.e. can they manouver around obstacles and not get stuck on objects.

4. Is their player awareness working correctly? i.e. Do they properly trace to the player position?

I am totally unsure about the current condition of the AI and would welcome any further advice or help you can give.

Thank You
uman
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 21:25
Van B,

"once the glitches are taken care of, more complex behaviour can be supported".

What does "glitches" mean?
Is that bugged erronous behaviour?

"the more there is to get in the way of the enemies, the more they struggle, that's true of any game engine"

If a pathfinding and collision system is working and has been designed correctly and levels are designed accordingly, then enemies should avoid obstacles properly - and not get stuck on them. If something like another enemy gets in their way and they absolutely cannot pass because theres not enough room to do so then they would find another route or wait and move once their path is clear - they dont get stuck permanently. If a path is clear and there is enough room between objects there is no reason for an enemy not to be able to carry out correct obstacle avoidance, unless the AI is not working properly. There should be no reason why an enemy cannot trace to player unless again the system is flawed.

Of course there are exceptions and there are always going to be scenarious where one can spot an enemies or other game mistake and we do realise how difficult an effective AI, pathfinding, collision system is to set up. In gamemaking very little is easy to do, and this subject perhaps the most difficult of all.

"I mean - anyone ever played a FPS where there wasn't some way to trick the AI, hide from it, kill it without it seeing you"

That is something which in those instances is an expected and a chosen behaviour to add effect to the gameplay - it is not brought about by erronous behaviour. i.e. The enemy cant see or trace the player.

So in FPSC will be be able to see the enemy - kill it without it seeing us because we choose to do (- that good eh), or just because it cant see us and it has no choice then?
Rob K
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 21:37
Quote: "There are so many statements floating around regarding the AI, about bugs and fixes, potential purchasers need to know what the actual condition of it is. As there is no Demo then we buy blindly and this issue is very important to me at least."


Quote: "Please make us a video of the AI or at least continue to tell us whats going on with it and report its condition to address concerns.
"


There will be a demo on PC Gamer magazine's coverdisks in the not-too-distant future. You can decide for yourself.

I am not going to produce any more videos for the time being.

The final questions in your post are too ambiguous for me to answer.


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uman
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 21:50
RobK,

Not much help there.

But thank you for taking the time to reply.
Van B
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 22:32
Quote: "That is something which in those instances is an expected and a chosen behaviour to add effect to the gameplay - it is not brought about by erronous behaviour. i.e. The enemy cant see or trace the player.

So in FPSC will be be able to see the enemy - kill it without it seeing us because we choose to do (- that good eh), or just because it cant see us and it has no choice then?"


If your gonna surmise and make your own mind up everytime what is the point in asking questions? - Did you even read the bit where I mention being chased by skeletons down the corridor?. Off course the enemies can see you, if they catch you in their field of view (which is variable) they chase you - perhaps they can't negotiate furniture as well as they could, but waypoints seem to work fine, it's only when the enemies are chasing you that any strangeness would happen.

RobK uploaded some vids and people tore them to shreds, why on earth would he bother to upload more?

Maybe it would help if people said what they expected to happen then we could test the AI for those concearns individually, not just a request to show a better AI video. Frankly, I'm just plonking the buggers down to mess around with while testing, I imagine a lot of testers are doing the same.

People need to keep 1 thing in mind - FPSC is a First Person Shooter Creator - it's not a level editor for a pre-existing engine, the EA version is a platform to build on, nobody really knows to what extent FPSC will grow in these areas - just be assured that it will grow.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
MaddA ChieF
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 22:33
No save/load function in the ea isn't bad, but are there check points? Long games without them aren't cool.

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Van B
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 23:15
Yes, the start position is like a little marker, and there's one that acts as a checkpoint too - like you'd position it before a room full of enemies or a series of tricky jumps for instance.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
uman
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Posted: 31st Jan 2005 23:25
Van B,

You have perhaps or not misinterpereted my first point which I did not see as having anything to do with the skeletons mentioned. Quite possibly because I have not made it clear, if so then I do appologise for any unintentional lack of clarity.

I am trying to seek some clarification to some questions that despite many posts at the forum regarding the issues are still not clear to me.

Unfortunately I dont have FPSC so cant answer the questions for myself so dont have much option other to ask someone else to help.

I appreciate it if others are prepared to offer that help and if not then thats their choice and right, their time is valuable and they do not have to give it up to seeming idiots like me who dont have the ability to understand what they are saying.

I do appreciate that Rob K had made the videos and they were great to see. Yes, I had critiscised the level of AI shown though had made it clear that I and dont think anyone else would suggest that that was a personal attack on Rob in any way but a refelction of the level of AI available at the time within the bounds of FPSC.

That apparently may have changed or not and thats what I was trying to ascertain. Showing the actual situation in a video is much better than trying to explain here whats going on so I asked if Rob would be kind enough to help with that.

Apparently not. I accept and respect that and anyones choice to make such a decision, so wont ask again.
Shadow Angel
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Posted: 1st Feb 2005 00:18
Look Glyvin101,

Why don't you just wait 'till it comes out? Okay?

Ali M

http://www.nukesoft.co.nr
Nukesoft -- Explosive Games -- CURRENT PROJECT :: Future Rebel
Van B
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Posted: 1st Feb 2005 00:21
Sorry if I sounded a bit off there - I just felt that Rob was being put in an awkward and unfair position. We all hope FPSC does well, and being allowed to show so much from a WIP system is pretty rare for a product with such a market value. I know it should'nt really concearn us, but I'd hate to think that people have a lessor opinion about FPSC because of some video beta AI that isn't so hot. That's the danger of videos as well as the benefit, you see everything whether it's finished or barely started.


Van-B


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uman
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Posted: 1st Feb 2005 00:46
Van B,

No problem,

Whatever someones opinion of gamemaking and me, I try to be really easy going with people, after all we are all different and thats what makes us and our games interesting.

I guess Rob does feel in an awkward position and I dont blame him if he feels more than a bit put off, I recon I would too.

I dont like critisim at all -its hard to come to terms with for me - it tends to depress me for a while me - but eventually I bounce back.

Your whole statement is very valid. I must say that the number of screen shots being released for instance is a testament to how fast and excellent a product is FPSC is at making levels. You would be hard pressed to find another engine where such flow of level creation is apparent even when an engine is a complete product. And the quality of the level design and rendering quality possible is more than any one could have reasonably expected I would think. No problems there. We should be well pleased.

Rob K
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Posted: 1st Feb 2005 03:55
Quote: "I do appreciate that Rob K had made the videos and they were great to see. Yes, I had critiscised the level of AI shown though had made it clear that I and dont think anyone else would suggest that that was a personal attack on Rob in any way but a refelction of the level of AI available at the time within the bounds of FPSC."


I understand, I was really referring to other forum users.

I have no issues with people complaining about the way the video is made or its content as far as my influence goes (wrong format, doesn't showcase the right features etc.), but I did make clear at the time that the videos were FPSC 'as is', and not intended as promotional material.

Clearly it would be possible to set up carefully scripted levels in which the entities appear to do things that they could not do in an unaided situation. However, I'm not really sure that is what people here really want.


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uman
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Posted: 1st Feb 2005 05:23
Rob K,

Thank you for your reply.

"Clearly it would be possible to set up carefully scripted levels in which the entities appear to do things that they could not do in an unaided situation. However, I'm not really sure that is what people here really want".

Thats good news. Understood.

Thanks very much

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