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glyvin101
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Posted: 4th Feb 2005 12:40
to all those who are working on the game do u think that the EA version will ship at the thought date of the 11th or not

THx

glyvin101
Coldnews
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Posted: 4th Feb 2005 17:16
I'd just wait for an official statement that will be announced when they are ready to. This post shouldnt really be posted because it means that we should allow posts like this up every day, just to "check" if its still coming out. The release date is 11th, unless something goes terribly wrong. If something does go terribly wrong, we will hear from one of the TGC guys with the news.

www.ColdNews.co.uk - the worlds first solo band.
New coldnews single avalable from here
Richard Davey
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Posted: 4th Feb 2005 21:42
I'd say it's 50 / 50 at the moment.

Super Joe crack combat soldier fights a long battle against overwhelming odds.
Freddy 007
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Posted: 4th Feb 2005 22:01
only 50/50?
That´s not much...


Check out PanzerGames at http://www.freewebs.com/panzergames
Noldor
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Posted: 4th Feb 2005 22:04 Edited at: 4th Feb 2005 22:05
I think you might just have let lose the beast Rich.

Edit: I realy appreciate the honesty.
Logan 5
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Posted: 4th Feb 2005 22:11 Edited at: 4th Feb 2005 22:12
Lee's diary is encouraging. It appears the AI is the last major hurdle.

And I'll add my thanks to Richard for the update.

Basically dark.
Ominous
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Posted: 5th Feb 2005 02:10 Edited at: 5th Feb 2005 02:11
Hey 50/50 is better than 10/90. Thanks for the update, I'll be crossing my fingers.

EDIT: Yeah! This is my first post that didn't need to be approved.

Now is the winter of your discontent.
-Stewie from Family Guy
Freddy 007
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Posted: 5th Feb 2005 07:30
Quote: "Hey 50/50 is better than 10/90"


but not as good as 90/10

But I´ll just hope that FPSC will come on FEB 11.


Check out PanzerGames at http://www.freewebs.com/panzergames
SoulMan
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Posted: 5th Feb 2005 07:44
There's a 1% chance that the 40% chance won't happen unless we receive 50% of the information that this 100% full CD contains.
There.
SoulMan

This is as backwards as is This
Noldor
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Posted: 5th Feb 2005 07:56
Are you Drunk SoulMan???
Coldnews
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Posted: 5th Feb 2005 19:18
whether this comes out on time or not, at least you will know that it is stable and fast. I've been looking at the list of bugs and the current critical, high and medium bugs are almost all but gone! Obviously more could appear at any time, but it seems that they are getting closer and closer to their goal. And things are getting really fast and really stable and really worth waiting for!

www.ColdNews.co.uk - the worlds first solo band.
New coldnews single avalable from here
uman
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Posted: 5th Feb 2005 20:47
Lees Diaries are very encouraging.

Much progress has obviously been made. It seems he could not work any harder and no more could be asked of anyone. He seems to be a very hard working, either cos he loves what he's doing or out of necessity - either way he's a top man.

It seems he is near enough on track so if there is a delay - hopefully it wont be a major one.
Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 00:07
I find it very interesting some people have actually written FPS Creator will be "bug free" or alluding to that. Simply put, it will never be "bug free." As the old saying goes, "Testing can only PROVE the existence of bugs. It cannot prove they do not exist."

I think it would not be in the very best interest of this product to keep delaying it. As of now, the release date has been pushed back at least two months. When I first read about this, the initial release date was roughly in late November. After so many delays, they start to lose credibility.

Assuming their are no "showstoppers," I would see no practical reason to delay the EA release. If there are some minor issues which need to be addressed, they could simply be addressed in a readme.txt file and the ability to "publish" (create final product for distribution) a game could be disabled until these issues are addressed by an update. In the interim, people could be using the product.

In the end, it is obviously up to TGC when they release it. I'm putting in my two cents as others have previously.
Rob K
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 00:15
I believe that it would be infinitely worse for TGC to release FPSC with showstopping bugs than for TGC to release FPSC a few months late.

I personally don't like the idea that a product should be released with known bugs that will require patching at a later date. There is no way that a product should be released with functionality visibly disabled.


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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 00:27
Rob,

I clearly wrote:
Quote: "Assuming their are no "showstoppers," I would see no practical reason to delay the EA release. "
Hence, your statement
Quote: "I believe that it would be infinitely worse for TGC to release FPSC with showstopping bugs than for TGC to release FPSC a few months late. "
agrees with what I wrote.

As for software released with "minor known bugs," it happens each and every day. Many products I have used had some kind of "known bug" list which would be addressed in an update. It is not that uncommon at all.

Rich
Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 00:46
Rob,

For fun, just to demonstrate how many software products are released with known bugs, go to Google and type in the following:

"windows known bugs"

I received 1,420,000 results! Here are some of them:

SETI@home: Updates, Known Bugs and Fixes in Progress

Known Bugs - BGBlitz - Professional Backgammon Software for ...

RealVNC - VNC 4.0 Known Bugs and Features

Known bugs in PGP 6.0.2i for Windows

Bugs in PHYLIP, known or recently fixed

Matlab 6.0 bugs

Rich
Noldor
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 01:02
Whats your point?
slacer
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 01:08
Sorry Rich,

but known bug just means it is already in the support database.
This is not a new bug and maybe there is already a work-around for that.

It does not say, the software was released with the knowledge of these bugs.

So, if you open an FAQ and try to find out why your xyz-software is not working on abc-system - you are reading the list of known bugs.

slacer
Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 01:17
slacer,

Known bugs are known bugs. Whether or not they are known before release or they are made aware of them after a release is not the issue. They are still bugs of which they are aware and have deliberately chosen not to release an update to fix these issues for one reason or another. They are known bugs which are not fixed. That was simply my point.

Rich
uman
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 01:19
Releasing any product with known bugs is to say the very least a bad precedent.

I am quite sure that TGC will pay little attention to what users say regarding this and quite rightly so.

I trust TGC will not release the product until it is in a fit condition to meet with their aspirations for the product which I believe is for it to have a measure of quality and reliability. That seems to be very near in any case and I doubt therefore that this kind of thread at this stage will have any influence whatsoever.

Thus far TGC have ignored any kind of pressure for releasing the product prematurely and they are to be applauded for that.

Thats not to say there wont be any bugs - it will be a remarkable product if it was at an EA stage.

Users at this forum can trust them on this one - they got it right.
Noldor
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 01:23
im with Uman.
Altouh i dont see this
changing anything.
slacer
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 02:01
Well, if there is a known bug before EA and they don't want to delay the release, they might just remove this feature from the EA-Release.

But "it includes this bug, but you have to live with it until V1" would be a very very bad choice.

Don't deliver software with "features" you have to say "sorry" for.
Noldor
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 02:14
When it is an EA release i think that is acceptable to some
degree. After all the EA is a beta of sort.
And they will continue to release patches for it so
im not worried.
Earlier release means i can start on my project earlier.
As long as they fix it in time i will be happy.
Cloud of Crows Studios
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 03:31
Quote: "Earlier release means i can start on my project earlier.
As long as they fix it in time i will be happy. "


Ditto. Enough delays already. I'm unconcerned about 100% Win98 compatability or perfect AI for the EA release. As long as there are no critical bugs, my opinion is release it on schedule, otherwise you will undermine customer confidence (starting with me )

Seriously please release EA on schedule.

The artist formerly known as PogPogo

Golgothica: An FPS Sci-Fi/Horror Game - www.Golgothica.com
Logan 5
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 03:39
I'm with Crows and Noldor on this one. We know it will have bugs. Maybe some big ones, but we all have enough faith in Lee and TGC to know that they'll be patched quickly. If all software companies waited for software to be bug-free before release, we might as well chuck our computers now.

Basically dark.
Zone Chicken
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 03:42 Edited at: 6th Feb 2005 03:43
Quote: " trust TGC will not release the product until it is in a fit condition to meet with their aspirations for the product which I believe is for it to have a measure of quality and reliability."


Maybe they should have followed that advice with dbp, don't take my statement the wrong way cause dbp is a great program, it just has a awful lot of bug's in it still and i belive it's something like 3 years old now?

Bug testing is what the ea is for, i don't see why they will not release it on the 11 as said unless there is something major wrong. The whole point of the first release being a EA is that it is a beta not a final and there will be more bug's found, they can't test with a limited amount of people and possibly find all the bug's that exist in the program.

Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 04:03
Noldor wrote:
Quote: "When it is an EA release i think that is acceptable to some
degree. After all the EA is a beta of sort.
And they will continue to release patches for it so
im not worried.
Earlier release means i can start on my project earlier.
As long as they fix it in time i will be happy. "


I agree 100%. I'd rather be working on my game knowing there may be bugs. The biggest issue for me would be program crashes resulting in loss of work. The easy way to minimize this is to save early and save often.

As far as the program "misbehaving," I agree it is not a huge issue as long as this is addressed in the 1.0 release.

Rich
Rob K
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 05:19
Quote: "For fun, just to demonstrate how many software products are released with known bugs, go to Google and type in the following:
"

Quote: "Known bugs are known bugs. Whether or not they are known before release or they are made aware of them after a release is not the issue"


Of course it is the issue. If the product is released with known bugs then it is likely to have many, many more unknown bugs. Apart from hardware issues, and problems dealing with legacy software, there were probably very few known bugs when Windows was released. The "known bugs" are those found and acknowledged by MS *since* release.

Quote: "Bug testing is what the ea is for, i don't see why they will not release it on the 11 as said unless there is something major wrong."


No, the purpose of the EA is not bug testing. That is what the betas are for. The purpose of the EA is to get customer feedback on features and usability, amongst other things.

Quote: "As long as there are no critical bugs, my opinion is release it on schedule, otherwise you will undermine customer confidence (starting with me )"


Even fairly minor 'bugs' can be hugely irritating if you encounter them very frequently. For example (and this is *not* a real bug, I just made it up), if FPSC positioned all entities upside-down by default, that would not prevent you from working with the software, but it would take away hours of productive time from users. Surely it would be better, in that case, to wait a couple more days before releasing it.

Software is rapidly increasing in size and complexity, and the industry is having enough problems preventing instability issues from running wildly out of control as it is. The last thing it needs is an apathetic attitude from the next generation of software engineers.


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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 05:43 Edited at: 6th Feb 2005 06:06
Rob K,

You wrote:
Quote: "Software is rapidly increasing in size and complexity, and the industry is having enough problems preventing instability issues from running wildly out of control as it is. The last thing it needs is an apathetic attitude from the next generation of software engineers."


I don't know what it is like in the UK. However, here in the USA, we have very, very, very few Software Engineers. We have droves of Programmers, Computer Scientists and plain hackers. As a matter of fact, in my fifteen years in the Software Development arena, I've only known of one trained Software Engineer. Too many people confuse Programmers, Computer Scientists and plain hackers with Software Engineers. Formally, a Software Engineer is one who has a degree (example: http://www.umuc.edu/grad/mswe/mswe_home.shtml) in Software Engineering. It is remotely possible an ambitious individual could acquire the "core" knowledge to become qualified to be called a Software Engineer by self study. However, given how many people I've met in this area who spend almost no time expanding their knowledge base, I'd be surprised if many people actually learn this breadth of information on his or her own.

From Professional Software Development by Steve McConnell
(http://www.stevemcconnell.com/SeNotCs.pdf)
Quote: "With only about 40 percent of software developers holding computer science degrees and practically none holding degrees in software engineering, we shouldn’t be surprised to find people confused about the difference between software engineering and computer science."


In the end, confusing Programmers, Computer Scientists and plain hackers with Software Engineers is like mixing physicians and nurses. Yes, they may perform similar tasks and have similar knowledge. However, their focus, specialties and specific expertise are very different.

Rich
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 05:57
TGC cant release FPSC too early otherwise thet'll end up with a product that resembles DBPro at the start.

Visit http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~nickk/
Questions are a burden to others, answers a prison for oneself.
Rob K
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 07:03
Rich, you seem to have misunderstood the point of my post. True, Software Engineer may not be the term I am looking for, but you know what I meant. Looking at the PDF article you linked to, it would seem that my argument would apply to them more than Computer Scientists.


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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 07:34
Rob K,

My point was pretty simple. Many people, both inside and outside the IT realm, call anyone who has programmed in any language, regardless of training or education, a "Software Engineer." This is not correct. That is like saying an auto mechanic is a mechanical engineer.

This is especially dangerous for anyone who considers themselves an IT professional. People in this field should know the difference between a Programmer and a Software Engineer. Unfortunately, many do not.

Rich
Rob K
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 08:21
The SE / CS difference is irrelevant as far as my post goes. They both design and write software, albeit at a different level.


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