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FPSC Classic Product Chat / How big are the exe files

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bigH
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Posted: 17th Feb 2005 19:38
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I downloaded one game ,it was 30 mb. .
How big is the avg . game going to be ?
Does any one know ?

Keep not your blind eye . Open your heart to what is offered .For YOU are not the final judge . bigH.
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00bk
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Posted: 17th Feb 2005 19:43
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It depends on how many levels there are, how big the levels are, how many entities there are in each level... you get the picture.


the apocalypse is coming!
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Freddy 007
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Posted: 17th Feb 2005 19:43
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I'm just compiling a game on 2 (not too big) levels, I'll tell you how big it is once it's done.
(Migth take a while, 'cause I've full lightmapping on . Gonna take a screen to the sreenshot 100$-thing )


Check out PanzerGames at: http://www.freewebs.com/panzergames
æ ø å
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bigH
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Posted: 17th Feb 2005 19:50
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Thank you . The one I downloaded was 1 level .
So we could be talking 300 mb for a big game then .

Keep not your blind eye . Open your heart to what is offered .For YOU are not the final judge . bigH.
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game Spacer
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Posted: 17th Feb 2005 20:14
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"The one I downloaded was 1 level .
So we could be talking 300 mb for a big game then"

Yeah nice and easy to send to your friends
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jasuk70
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Posted: 17th Feb 2005 20:18
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It all depends on how much media you use. The level map files are only around 115-130k in size, the bulk of the space is taken up with media (Sounds models etc.)

Jas

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"What is this talk of 'release'? Klingons do not'release' software. It escapes leaving a bloody trail of developers and quality assurance people in its wake!"
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game Spacer
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Posted: 17th Feb 2005 20:27
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I just used the "chateau" room and added a player start position then built it,it came out at 26MB
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jasuk70
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Posted: 17th Feb 2005 20:37
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@gamespacer, Try making 10 more rooms and try again and see what the difference in size is.

Jas

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"What is this talk of 'release'? Klingons do not'release' software. It escapes leaving a bloody trail of developers and quality assurance people in its wake!"
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Freddy 007
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Posted: 17th Feb 2005 20:41
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just done compiling my level: 113 Mb UnZipped


Check out PanzerGames at: http://www.freewebs.com/panzergames
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bigH
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Posted: 18th Feb 2005 03:03
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KLU 007 , thats one level , how many mb do you need for your full game (best guess )?

thank you

Keep not your blind eye . Open your heart to what is offered .For YOU are not the final judge . bigH.
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 18th Feb 2005 04:37
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In regards to the size of final executables, what is the perception of the size. Is a large size good or bad? Do you think a large 100MB game executable is the result of a poor product? And specifically, what can we do to educate users about this subject. As many of you know, most commercial games these days require a huge amount of media to present a realistic game world. No one will settle for monochrome walls and blip noises anymore, and a 4MB texture file is normal these days. A typical small level saved out as a game will be around 30MB, with a larger level twice that and multiple levels easily reaching a CD full uncompressed. Are there any ideas and insights how we can present this information so it helps users understand WHY they are this size? This is Early Adopter, so your wildest ideas please!

"We are the knights who say...eki eki eki fatang loopzoing, zanziga....ni"
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 18th Feb 2005 04:42
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Compress textures ?

Visit http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~nickk/
Questions are a burden to others, answers a prison for oneself.
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Hoopkid ups
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Posted: 18th Feb 2005 04:43
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This is just my opinion on the matter:

It seems as if these sizes are huge compared to the games that most people make with Dark Basic, but the fact is, these are high-quality games. The file sizes may seem big, but compare them to professional games, which usually use an entire CD or DVD. It's not like their overly large, they just have better graphics and sound than a lot of other Dark Basic games, hence the large file sizes.
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Digital Sin
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Posted: 18th Feb 2005 04:45
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There can be a multitude of reasons why a distributable is of a certain size. I think the question is why specifically FPSC exe's are as large as they are.

When you 'Build Game' in FPSC and choose which textures, how is this handled? For instance, choosing High Quality textures and building should give you a larger exe than choosing one of the lower quality textures. I haven't tested this myself, is this what happens?

It is important to educate the end users about large distributables and preserving the quality of the experience. However I think there must also be some room in FPSC to let us as developers choose some options to optimize the end result. I just don't see how a tiny level can come out to be 30 MB.

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http://fpsc.blogspot.com/
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Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 18th Feb 2005 04:55 Edited at: 18th Feb 2005 04:58
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@Lee

Just to note, MOST games that have a 4mb texture file per object NORMALLY come out on CD (therefore you goto a store and pick it up and not download it). Therefore a game with 6 CD's is quite fine.

I think since all this is being done over the internet is the real "size" question. It is a real pain to have someone make ONE level of 30mb in size, realized they forgot to add a Enemy at X position or need to change the health of the Enemy to a lower amount and then have to Upload the 30bm file for everyone to download it.

You asked for Wildest Ideas. One that I can think of at this moment is a file checker much like you see on the MMORPG whereas it only download the "Updated" files. I mean, really, how many times do you need to download "minigun.bmp"?

Just an idea. Since most of this will be online distribution. Do something like create a GUID for the game, have a file that basically is a list of all the files in the game, parse through it. But of course the issue is where to put the "gold master" version of the software for checking. Maybe have a web site and offer at as a service? Just random thoughts.....

-This...is my boomstick!
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Programmer Dave
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Posted: 18th Feb 2005 05:01
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I made a one level game, but with loads of enemies, and it's 112mb

I'm the guy you love to hate.
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bigH
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Posted: 18th Feb 2005 07:16
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Well the point is to share the game with others , yes .
And looking at the size of some of the files , it looks like it will take a long time to download. There are not to many places you can upload and download these big files , if at all ( for free I don't know ). Even with Broadband it will take a long time .

So I am intrested where you all are going to post your games ?

Keep not your blind eye . Open your heart to what is offered .For YOU are not the final judge . bigH.
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Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 18th Feb 2005 21:49
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Why would the EXE size change? It is static code that calls scripts and media. I think the EXE is a fixed size.

-This...is my boomstick!
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Omikron
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 02:28
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Quote: " Compress textures ?"


Bingo.

JPG's, not TGA's!
MP3's, not WAV's!

Compress, compress, compress!

Bearing in mind that the average buyer of this product will probably be hosting game files on non-commercial servers for distribution, 30mb minimum a kick is going to affect the following:

a) FPSC customers are going to have trouble finding willing webhosts that will agree to this amount of hitting on bandwidth.
b) End-users are going to find it hard to download the games from free web accounts if webhosts slap download-per-hour caps on them, plus dialup users (they do still exist ) will just not bother downloaidng the games
c) With games being tricky to host and download, there's going to be implications to the amount of potential downloaders of the games who would learn about FPSC's existance and thus....


I lost my train of thought.

Okay, carry on. I was probably just babbling anyway.

http://www.zahrielomega.net
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LeeBamber
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 08:14
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Thanks for the ideas, keep them coming. You are absolutely right, the standard for CD distribution should not be the standard for FPSC games which will ultimately be downloaded. I already make some compression such as TGA to DDS (a good reduction) and FPX to BIN which leave sonly the binary to distribute. I still have some other files to reduce too such as DBO(regular) to DBO(compressed), WAV to OGG and the EXE itself. it would still be huge when you consider the variety of media used. If anyone has played DARWINIA (http://www.darwinia.co.uk/ - a recommended experience) they approach the idea of media consumption differently - taken from the demo scene. Do you think the idea of reduced texture quality (basically to zero) and optimised 3D mesh storage would be an option you would use under a tick box to reduce your final game size? Be warned your games would 'look' different to get that sub-10MB objective!

"We are the knights who say...eki eki eki fatang loopzoing, zanziga....ni"
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Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 09:28
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Media is ALWAYS going to kill you.

I do still like my idea of only download the files that have change, but that is a huge setup and then again who is going to do that service? If I can find a provider that is cheap (under $100 a month) I may have a go at creating a service whereas you can upload your files and have a updater check to see what files you really need.

My other thought is I don't think people quite understand how Amazing FPSCreator works currently. Meaning if you have the SAME segments and entities as everyone else, just send the script which is like what? 118k? Because it will call the media that is already on your system.

I REALLY like how the "Amazing FPSCreator" is working. I really enjoy the fact that it is just a bunch of script files with one engine that calls all the scripts.

My only other thoughts with compression is you lose something (quality) and I would hate to see people start complaining that "looks like pond scum" when in fact, if you download the "full" version, it looks incredible.

Compressing the models to a compressed .X will save space, BUT I like the fact that I can edit my .X files manually.

Hummm.. Maybe have different build versions. Like "High Bandwidth" and "Low Bandwidth" versions, whereas the low has the "pond scum" graphics.

Another approach is to build a "media/scripts" packs. Here is an example:
Person builds a game. Now the EXE is basically the same so we don't have to worry about that. For the media, the "1st" pack is generated (one for media and one for scripts). The user has the "option" of creating "new" packs, much like a build version and using a VSS type system. When the game is built again, and there is "new" media or scripts, a "2nd" pack is built.

What I am attempting to get at (but I seem to be failing since my pizza is getting cold and I am REALLY hungry) is that you can post on your website the core "main" pack and then each new pack that is built. So if you download the main pack, and you make an update (add a new entity model and modify some scripts) you only need to upload the new "smaller" pack. People that already have your version of the game can just download the latest "smaller" pack whereas a new user will just download the full build "pack"

Ok, must heat the pizza and eat.

-This...is my boomstick!
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Omikron
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 17:38
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Pizza: You know it only makes sense.

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Chimera
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Posted: 19th Feb 2005 18:38
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Lee, I know darwinia I was a beta tester of it. Great experience indeed.

Don't eat yellow snow!
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Rob K
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 16:00
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I think that one of the biggest problems is probably duplication of media. Every time someone wants to download an FPSC game, they will, in effect, be redownloading a whole load of media, executables etc over again.

Perhaps a special downloader tool could be created for FPSC so that only media that was not already on the system is re-downloaded. This way after the first download, only the game universe, level layout and custom scripts / media would have to be downloaded. The executable and other bits 'n pieces could just be copied from elsewhere on the same PC.


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slacer
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 17:02
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Please don't reduce the textures quality because how would that fit to shaders?
Blurry (low detail) textures will really harm your game and FPSC.

My testgame is about 30 MB in size, but after using WinRAR there are only 14 MB left to download.

Separating the artwork into themes to be downloaded if needed, is a nice idea

I would use the WW2 theme and only add custom models or a few models from other packages (SF weapons) to the main game.
You would not need to download the whole SF package, only to use one of its weapons and ammo.

But once again:
If you are going to reduce the texture quality, you can't use shaders - well, you could ... but bumpmapping with a pixelated texture???

Lightmapping with a low res texture would look like fps in 1995.
There are other game engines (from that time) to reach that low aimed goal

-- slacer
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Rob K
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 19:08
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Quote: "Lightmapping with a low res texture would look like fps in 1995."


1996 you mean - 1995 was before the Quake era.


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Hatsu
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Posted: 20th Feb 2005 21:56
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As the game increase per level, media will be reused most of the time. So every level added, the extra memory will get smaller each time. Therefore the first level will always be the biggest in size.
This of course depends on the creator re-using models, textures etc, but that is more than likely.
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00bk
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 02:48 Edited at: 21st Feb 2005 02:49
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Quote: "As the game increase per level, media will be reused most of the time. So every level added, the extra memory will get smaller each time. Therefore the first level will always be the biggest in size."

If the first level doesn't have as much media as the other levels, or is smaller etc., then the other levels will almost certainly be larger than the first.
It all depends on what you put in your game, bigH.


the apocalypse is coming!
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Hatsu
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 03:07
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It doesn't matter what order you think of the levels. There is only a finite amount of media avaliable, so the more levels you add, the less memory is taken up per level. The only way this doesn't happen is if you don't use any media over more than one level which seems unlikely if you are trying to keep a theme to your game.

For example my first level zipped =30mb
My second level zipped with first =40mb

Even though my second level is bigger contains more media and badguys due to the reason of repeating media from the first.
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slacer
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 03:50 Edited at: 21st Feb 2005 14:55
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-- deleted -- I mixed something up
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GameKing
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 07:30
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Hi,

Maybe something like PAK files would be good for this?

Enjoy

Abit IC7-G Max II, P4 2.5 gig, 1 gig DDR Ram, 80 gig Maxtor HD, NVidia FX-5700 128 DDR, Sound Blaster Live! Digital.
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Cellbloc Studios
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Posted: 21st Feb 2005 08:32
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@Rob K:

Thanks. That is more of what I was suggesting, the problem is who or where are the ¨master¨ copy of the game going to be hosted to do the ¨compare¨ at?

-This...is my boomstick!
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