EA is a beta I know but....(Maybe Lee can answer this)

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SoulMan

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 02:15

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I'm having too many issues with the speed of the system. In my test game Experiment Gone Wrong, I am running into cases where the test is choppy. In most of the cases of running the game, I get 37 FPS. That's not bad. However if I look around and run around, in certain parts it gets to be a bit choppy. Here are my computer specs for you to know.

3400+ AMD64
1 Gigabyte Memory
BFG 6800GT OC 256Megabyte video card
My machine can chew through Doom3, Farcry, HalfLife 2, World of Warcraft(Rich is probably playing this right now)etc... with no problem. If the FPSCreator is suppose to be close to Quake2 in terms of graphics, gaming etc.. then why is my machine having a difficult time running a game smoothly with it. Is it the way the program renders stuff to screen? Is it that the program is CPU intensive and doesn't bother the GPU for whatever reason? Or is Dark Basic Pro the reason that FPSCreator is slow rendering. I know FPSCreator uses Dark Basic Pro as it's engine. Could that be the problem? Is Dark Basic Pro really too slow to handle this? Or could improvements be made to it to get Dark Basic Pro back into shape and running better?
SoulMan

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Cellbloc Studios

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 02:23 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2005 02:35

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Wow! That's a lot of questions! I think I counted 5!

I actually played your game, using the script file that you provided. When I ran it from the editor, it was horriable. I mean, really bad. Now, I rebooted and then created an EXE of your same and ran the exe it was completely smooth! Have not tried it back in the editor yet. I will let you know.

That's my 2 cents.

[EDIT]
Ok, ran it in the editor. Slower than the exe from last night, but was much more playable than last time. I have noticed of you EVER encounter an error and it tell you that the Application must restart, restart the computer. It seems like there is a handle that either is not released OR a memory leak. Not sure what unless I debug the code (which I am not planning on anytime soon).

Also, switching from window to window while it is building the Test Level sometimes has caused strange problems. I don't like waiting to watch the lightmap being created so I will hop over to the docs or mess around with Adobe or Max. If you try and use another application that is currently using DirectX, I have seem a few times where the game freaks out.

Hope this helps you in anyway shape or form.

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Chimera

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 02:34

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Why didn't they make FPS Creator with the program they made darkbasic pro with in the first place?

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Cellbloc Studios

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 02:36

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The made FPSCreator using Dark Basic Pro (page 3 of the Manual)

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Chimera

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 02:38

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That was not my question... What program did they make darkbasic pro with? Well why didn't they make FPSCreator with the same program as they made darkbasic pro with?

Get it now?

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Cellbloc Studios

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 02:45

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Yes, I follow you now.

They made Dark Basic Pro with C++. Insted of reinventing the wheel, they decided to use the Dark Basic Pro (which is a huge wrapper for DirectX with bonuses). Also by using Dark Basic Pro, they may have fixed some outstanding issues that were in Dark Basic Pro.

So to answer your question, C++ *BUT* it would have taken a lot longer *AND* they would basically have to create a new product and that is just another product to support.

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SoulMan

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 02:45

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Visual Studio?
Part of FPSCreator is made with Visual Studio and the rest with Dark Basic Pro. It's the rendering portion that I am having a problem with.
@CellBloc - Which level did you run? The version I put out or the version that was put out without my approval.
The one without my approval ran like crap and the one I put out ran better than most.
I will try what you suggest. I have my computer right now rendering a full map lighting scene but in test mode only. I will have to try an exe version to see how it runs.
SoulMan

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SoulMan

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 02:47

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What I am getting at is there are some serious improvements that need to be made to DBPro and FPSCreator.
SoulMan

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Cellbloc Studios

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 02:51

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@SoulMan:

Can you email me the Script file so I can retest please?

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SoulMan

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 02:56

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http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=48595&b=21
Here is the link to the orignal post I made. Guy(That's his name I guess) was the one who decided to take it upon himself to modify my work. Like I said, next time, there won't be a script file. Only EXE.
Look for a post from Guy that says, My Version of Experiment Gone Wrong. I'm surprised a post like that got through.
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Cellbloc Studios

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 02:59 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2005 03:01

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@SoulMan:

Sorry, I'm on basically a dial-up (64k Cable Modem, or the same speed as a 56k Dial-up Modem). No way in heck am I downloading an exe.

And yes, I'm using your original script you posted, not the "Guy" version.

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Ominous

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 03:00 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2005 03:01

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@Soulman
I still can't beleive you went so soft on him.

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uman

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 03:32

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SoulMan,

Dont know if it helps or is relevant to yur particular case as I dont know what your level(s) is like. But first of all everyone knows including TGC that FPSC is memory hungry and that on average FPS is slow overall. Even if you start off building a level with a single simple small one room without any dynamic entities or complicated content for instance FPS wont show great frame rates, and thats before you add anything. Then if you follow simple rules as FPSC recommends you have a chance of sustaining a reasonable FPS. However you wont have much scope or choice on how your levels are designed - you have to follow its rules. i.e. rooms and corridors and a low number of thinking entities in any one location - thats what its designed for.

For those a little more adventurous in their level design - then with a great deal of effort, experimentation, careful level planning, loads of testing and otimisation and some luck you may still just manage to create something more interesting and sustain the player at a just manageable FPS on a high end machine - that I think is the reality.

Somewhere on these forums are one or two threads (now buried) where Lee commented on some posts I made regarding FPS. He outlined some of the probs regarding FPS and dynamic thinking entities and the drain or effect they have on FPS. Lee is aware of this and that there is some need for an improvement as there is something which he apparently cant find causing dramatic fluctuations in player movement/slowdown in certain areas of a map under certain conditions - all very complicated. It seems its related to "thinking" or think time processing. Probably why enemies think too much and not do too much. (their not too bad by default actually, though theres room for improvement).

However in general FPSC is slow if you dont follow the rules - no doubt about that.

In my testing of complex outdoor levels in editor and testing player movement can be erratic and very slow in only some places, however, even in such a level FPS can change as the level is progressively designed and even though more content is added - the FPS gets better (or worse) - theres a kinda balance going on with distribution of all content e.g. walls and entities so moving, changing or adding something can have a dramatic effect on FPS. Also found by adding stuff then re-testing which often results in an improved FPS. In fact each time a test is made FPS is likely to differ somewhat.

I found that when you have optimised the best you can as a test. Then rebooting the system before compiling a game .exe produces the best result with the fastest FPS and smoothest gameplay. Rebooting probably releases memory (leaks or loss) back to the system and programs and gives an optimised uniterffered with compile.

Thats my assumption anyway. Of course Windows XP is hopeless at Memory management (or the programs running under it are hopeless) anyway which may not help. There are a lot of progs and files on anyones system which leak memeory or hold memeory and do not release it back to the system which is why a reboot is good before really testing final FPS.

One wonders if FPSC will ever see an upgrade to allow outdoor levels and terrain to be incorporated efficiently so I am not hopeful that a terrain support will be implimented any time soon or would be very successful unless improvements are made to optimise FPS capability.

Anyway it seems Lee is aware of any problems. Whether any improvements will be forthcoming we shall have to wait and see.

Probably no help to you of course but I think you are not alone here.

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Rob K

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 03:50

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Quote: "Dont know if it helps or is relevant to yur particular case as I dont know what your level(s) is like. But first of all everyone knows including TGC that FPSC is memory hungry and that on average FPS is slow overall. Even if you start off building a level with a single simple small one room without any dynamic entities or complicated content for instance FPS wont show great frame rates, and thats before you add anything."

The framerate is capped at 40FPS, unlike most modern FPS games, movement in FPS Creator games are frame-dependant not time dependant. If you press the U key in Test Game mode, your game will shoot up to whatever framerate your system can handle, but your movement speed will increase as well.

The slowdown actually has very little to do with the graphics in most cases. If you press the TAB key to bring up the performance monitor, you can see that the vast majority of the time is taken up by entities.

If you experience slowdown in an area, kill all enemies, and the framerate will often improve considerably.

I do agree though, performance is pretty poor in certain areas, and sorry to say "I told you so", but I did bring this to Lee's attention during beta testing.

I should also point out that the Early Adopter release is not a beta. A beta is a product which has / is likely to have known bugs but is otherwise fully feature-complete.

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SoulMan

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 04:42 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2005 04:43

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@Cellbloc,
The Exe comment wasn't at you. It was a general statement that I won't release a script file again due to the fact someone on this board took it upon themselves to take a file someone else made and run with it.
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Hammer

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 04:55

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i am having this slow down as well,
i will be crawling through duct work and in certain
areas will only be getting 9 FPS.

i changed the hallway to duct work thinking it wouldnt slow down so much.

and like you i can run doom 3 with no problems.

i hope this is something that will be worked on and fixed somehow,
you cant have a game running this slow through empty duct work...

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Cellbloc Studios

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 05:08

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@SoulMan:

Not a problem man. I fully understand. You work very hard on something that you have created as your own, and them someone takes your file and modifies it (which isn't that bad) *BUT* then post it (now that's bad).

I was just trying to help you see what is going on. As I have mentioned time and time again, test reboot, build reboot, rest reboot, build reboot........

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Cloud of Crows Studios

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 05:35 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2005 05:36

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Quote: "The slowdown actually has very little to do with the graphics in most cases. If you press the TAB key to bring up the performance monitor, you can see that the vast majority of the time is taken up by entities. "

I would agree with that however there seems to be a few valves misfiring in the old engine.

Try this experiment:

Place down 1 square segement of the default ground. Now drop a player start marker on there. Do a quick level test and point your view up into the sky. Take your hand off the mouse and hit the tab key. Now watch the numbers.

Even with no input the numbers will jump around erratically and never seem to "level off" even after a few minutes... at least they never did for me.

I'm thinking that FPSC shouldn't be doing this much "thinking" on it's own. If nothing is going on then the engine needs to be idle and not process things that have no use (the gun for instance when you plainly have no weapon in hand) or entities when there aren't any !?!

I love the IDEA of FPSC and I really really like what Simon, & Lee have come up with for the deault way that things look and work, but it still feels so darn "unstable" that I don't see much reasonable homebrew use for it right now much less actual commercial application

I'm hoping Lee takes this all as constructive criticism (which it is) and not a shot at his skills or abilities (which it is not)

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Cellbloc Studios

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 06:01 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2005 06:06

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@Cloud of Crows Studios:

I actually tried your test. This is what I got.

Created a 1 square segment of default ground, dropped player marker there and did a level test. Pointed my character at the sky.

1st time I did this:
Frame Rate: 33
Lighting: 0(0) - 1(0)
Player: 0-1
Entities: 20-29
Gun: 0-19

Stopped Test

Now, doing nothing but clicking Test again:
Frame Rate: 24
Lighting: 0(0) - 1(0)
Player: 0-4
Entities: 20-29
Gun: 0-19

I'm confused. Lost 7 FPS and I didn't do anything. More player numbers.

[EDIT]
Also, on 3rd test (which is about the same as second test) if I hit "-" and "=" to remove lights and entities, frame rate drops to 22.

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SoulMan

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 06:48 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2005 06:49

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Rob,
If this isn't a beta than what would you call it. It isn't V1 which is the first true version they want out. Are we right now in a bunch of RC's. So for example, we will get RC21 next and so forth until we get an RC that is the right one to release as V1?
Honestly, I think the whole driven by FPS and not time based is not a good way to do this. I would like to see someone make an example. Take the FPSCreator with it's map format and DarkBasic Pro with BSP. Create the same level in FPSCreator and a BSP Level Editor such as Cartography. Do what ever it takes to make each the same and render each one. Which one will be done quicker? I bet you that the BSP version in Dark Basic Pro is going to be fast. Something needs to correct this problem in FPSCreator.
@uman
Honestly, this program should be much faster. I have a POWERFUL machine at home that can rip through Doom3 like it was nothing. Granted I don't get 100FPS (Haven't tested just yet so I don't know) but it is better than what I was running before. FPSCreator shouldn't be like this. I like FPSCreator however at the state it is in at the moment, I think we have a long ways to go before a V1. If it goes to V1 with most of this not fixed and running smoothly, I will not endorse the program at all. Lee however is a very talented man and I think should be able to fix this.
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Cellbloc Studios

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 07:03 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2005 07:05

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@SoulMan:

I agree with you, but I think your mixing two things. One is the "map" display with the "engine". I have no doubt in my mind that if I ported the "map" from FPSCreator to DBP and viewed it, it would scream like a banshee on steroids (or move pretty darn fast).

I think there is a lot of overhead behind the scenes that is being done during the render loop that may not need to be doing anything. For example, as my test showed, it is displaying entities. The only entity is the player marker, so I count 1, and the system is counting around 29. It's cycling through the guns; there are no guns in my test, so why is it looking for something that doesn't even exist?

I am also quite sure that Lee is aware of these issues, but because people were jumping up and down like a Cat on Crack, it was pushed out (but he did warn everyone with the title Early Adapter).

I am also quite sure than when we near V1, things will run A LOT more smoothly. The great news is that we have this version, so we are a step ahead of everyone else. The same principals are going to exist (segments, entities, markers, etc) so as long as we can get used to them, we are on our way.

Don't think of it as a Beta, nor a Release Canidate, think of it as a......

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Coldnews

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 07:04

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i also think that this should run faster. My machine DOES have a crap graphics card, but i have nearly a gig of memory and it runs at stupid framerates such as 2fps (NOT a typo!). Which is BAAAD. Even if I could get it running at 15fps for testing then I'd be happy. And everyone else with average spec machines are complaining about the framerate too. The graphics arent too intensive and if your comp can run Doom 3 and Halflife 2 at a decent framerate then theres something wrong if FPSCreator is low in the speed department. Seriously, they are aiming this at the market of people who have average machines, they should probably sort some speed issues first.
I do have to say that Lee is VERY good at optimising and I'm sure that he will be able to get this fixed/improved up to a decent enough standard.

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uman

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 07:33 Edited at: 22nd Feb 2005 07:35

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Well I cant really comment much more than what results I've seen thus far personally but certainly there is always room for speed enhancements with any engine - none of the indie engines I know of except perhaps for one unmentionable are fast enough in giving the FPS required to make a faced paced modern game even an FPS shooter. Its difficult to achieve.

Having said that FPSC has some difficulties too - again it has to be said that this is not unknown to TGC. They are intelligent guys. Obviouslty they want FPSC to be as good as they can make it and I am sure they will do their best.

I should say that I have never reached 40 FPS even at start of level building and I got a powerful system. Averages between 30 and 35 FPS in an empty room.

I have only worked on two levels :

One has 80per cent outdoor areas, rather complex which ranges from between max 30 FPS indoor parts to as little as min 15 FPS in the slowest outdoor areas. Struggling to improve that. The map area the player can move to is almost max 40 x 40. Multiple height levels.

The other level just started is 100 per cent indoors : quite a large level though largely one floor in height, Currently I have just door entities and one character plus player - no other content yet. FPS ranges from 32 max to 28 min at the extremities - thats hardly good enough considering theres nothing really in the level yet, though player movement is fine. Hopefully as stuff is added the frame rates can be maintained in an indoor level - If I cant keep them from dropping much below this I dont have a lot of hope for the FPS when I get to the external city levels next - what. Thats if I get there at all.

Perhaps I will be pleasantly surprised.

First I got to sort out how to make the simple new segment pieces I need like a decent window and entrance to a corridor/room join that is the same size and shape as the corridor itself (No Door Required). No easy task in FPSC. The deafult segments just cant do it as they are not proprtionate to single walls and the walls are narrower than the corridor segments (scifi)? The corridors just cut the central wall whereas they span parts of three single walls.....see the prob (one of many). Its the box system.

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SoulMan

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Posted: 22nd Feb 2005 08:02

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I will take a wait and see attitude. I know Lee is probably over stressed at this point with all the feedback he is getting. I am going to try some experiments on my own. Otherwise, I have a new version of Experiment Gone Wrong Level 1. However I am only releasing it as an EXE. I will Zip up the program and upload it to FPSCreators.com when I get a chance.
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LeeBamber

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Posted: 23rd Feb 2005 09:18

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Not stressed, I like feedback very much. What might sound like 'bad words' spoken about FPSC is 'good information' to me. The great thing about the forum is that we can find out now before we tell too many more people about the product. Speed is an issue, no matter which way we slice it. I could say design better levels, use less monsters, reduce your texture quality, buy more memory but I think these are secondary solutions. The primary solution is to ensure you never have cause to say the speed is an issue. At the moment I let the user drop in fifty characters in a ten story warehouse and give each character the same collision and thinking time as the player has. Not a great recipe for speed, and something no game programmer would allow their level designer to approach. The primary solution is to optimize the logic engine, add faster FPI scripts so characters do not need to emulate the player and add guides and meters to the editor so the end user knows when they are approaching level design hot spots. At the moment, the only hot spot meter they get is 2FPS, and the product is not explaining why. The debug info helps, but not nearly enough for my liking. Now red alert claxons, and a computer voice hailing warning, now that is more like it! So when will all this happen. As soon as I dare. We have physics going in soon, and early tests show a possible collision 'speed-up' if you can believe that, so this might help in the search for speed. I am also warming to the idea to ultra-dumb characters that can only do two things. Walk on their waypoints and shoot from their waypoints. Zero collision, zero thinking, just walk and shoot. I dare say FPI could do that in EA, I just want to get involved in making this work great for V1.

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uman

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Posted: 23rd Feb 2005 11:36

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Lee,

"Speed is an issue, no matter which way we slice it. I could say design better levels, use less monsters, reduce your texture quality, buy more memory but I think these are secondary solutions. The primary solution is to ensure you never have cause to say the speed is an issue."

Your statement is actually like a breath of fresh air and is something I have never heard said by creators of any other engine - they usually choose the middle part of your statement ("I could say design better levels, use less monsters, reduce your texture quality, buy more memory") to insist to users that they are not designing levels and including content correctly. Which indeed may be the case, though not always or invariably so. Most indie engines by their very nature and various restrictive factors such as limited development finance/staff are running under par.

Your honest, independent, and non personal assessment to the FPSC product and response to users concerns is unprecidented I think and deserves our thanks and gratitude. Its something of a revalation to me.

Not many people around like you and we could use a lot more who use genuine appraisal in relation to engines and life in general.

A very brave statement and if FPSC never gets there I vote for you anyway just for the honesty and the intention.

Thank you Lee.

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SoulMan

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Posted: 23rd Feb 2005 13:28

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Lee,
I guess what I am getting at is that I think a more simple approch is in order. I think what I would be looking for would be a Quake2 style of enemy. We will see. I am interested in how the physic's engine has helped speed the program up.
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Coldnews

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Posted: 23rd Feb 2005 17:59

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ver interesting what Lee has been saying. Indeed.
I'd like to see how the physics engine IMPROVES speed. Thatd be strange yet great!
And a default "ultra dumb" fpi script would be good, but people have been complaining about the AI already, is that such a good idea? :s

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Cloud of Crows Studios

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Posted: 23rd Feb 2005 22:22 Edited at: 23rd Feb 2005 22:22

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Quote: "And a default "ultra dumb" fpi script would be good, but people have been complaining about the AI already, is that such a good idea?"

Doesn't seem like it to me. The AI is stinky bad now.

Quote: "Zero collision, zero thinking"

Greaaaaat. Collision is no good. Making the AI not check collision is even worse. I would rather only be able to fight 2 enemies at a time and not have them fly through walls than a duck shoot of 10 enemies that run right to me with thier guns straight out shooting and yet can walk through each other (and me)

Obviously this is not how other engines do it, so there must be an alternatively solution to the way the engine handles slicing up time / processing power.

Maybe I'm not understanding the solution here.

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uman

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Posted: 24th Feb 2005 05:33 Edited at: 24th Feb 2005 05:35

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We dont want dumb - a choice is needed - not sure how many times I've said this but If you got a clever enemy capabilty and can change that you got a choice - you can have dumb if you want.

If your enemies are intrinsically stupid and incapable of having attacking behavioural variance then i.e. AI - the "I" stands for intelligence - you dont have any choice - duck shoot it is then. You dont need FPSC for that - though you could make a nice duck shoot with it I'm sure.

Therefore "thinking" of AI however achieved or whatever the dificulties is necessary, whether you will get it is another matter. If you dont have it you will have to build a lot of levels and a large game - or you will get to the end before you've woken up - you wont have much opposition will you, so you would have to use other means of prolonging the game time - yes.

A one level forever spawning duck would do it.

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